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Author Topic: R-P312* North-South Cluster (aka R1b North-South Cluster)  (Read 2766 times)
rms2
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« on: April 28, 2010, 08:33:27 PM »

I don't have a lot of time to post this evening, but I want to start a thread on what I am calling the "R-P312* North-South Cluster" but which is normally referred to as the "R1b North-South Cluster".

This cluster, with characteristic marker values 437=14, 448=18, and H4=10, is without exception P312*. It was discovered by Ken Nordtvedt a couple of years ago and given the name "R1b North-South Cluster" by him because he found it extends from Scandinavia to the Iberian Peninsula.

As someone who spends A LOT of time scouring Ysearch, I can tell you, this cluster is BIG. I personally think it represents its own subclade of P312; it's just that its SNP has not yet been discovered.

I don't have the time this evening, but I plan to try to get a count of the North-South guys in the R-P312 and Subclades Project to get an idea what kind of a percentage of R-P312* they comprise. I'll post that here when I get the chance.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2010, 08:38:42 PM by rms2 » Logged

GoldenHind
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« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2010, 09:21:00 PM »

I don't have a lot of time to post this evening, but I want to start a thread on what I am calling the "R-P312* North-South Cluster" but which is normally referred to as the "R1b North-South Cluster".

This cluster, with characteristic marker values 437=14, 448=18, and H4=10, is without exception P312*. It was discovered by Ken Nordtvedt a couple of years ago and given the name "R1b North-South Cluster" by him because he found it extends from Scandinavia to the Iberian Peninsula.

As someone who spends A LOT of time scouring Ysearch, I can tell you, this cluster is BIG. I personally think it represents its own subclade of P312; it's just that its SNP has not yet been discovered.

I don't have the time this evening, but I plan to try to get a count of the North-South guys in the R-P312 and Subclades Project to get an idea what kind of a percentage of R-P312* they comprise. I'll post that here when I get the chance.

Like you, I strongly suspect that the North/South cluster has a yet to be discovered SNP, and that they are a substantial chunk of what is currently classified as P312*.

Incidentally Nordtvedt proposed two varieties of the cluster. Both have the distinguishing three off modals you mention. Group I additionally has 15,15,16,17 at 464. Group II has 14,30 at 389 and 10 at 460, but is modal at 464.

I got pretty excited when cluster member Vivies from France was found to have an SNP at L239 by 23andme, but apparently other cluster members who participated in the WTY project didn't have it (Vince T. would have to confirm this). I believe there were two N/S cluster members in the WTY project, and nothing new was found in either. So if there is a distinguishing SNP for this group, apparently it isn't in that portion of that portion of the Y chromosome tested during the WTY.  
« Last Edit: April 28, 2010, 09:36:04 PM by GoldenHind » Logged
GoldenHind
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« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2010, 10:52:04 PM »

I know it is far too much work to ask, but it would be very interesting to see what the N/S distribution looks like with the rest of P312* removed, and what the distribution of the rest of P312* looks like with the N/S cluster removed.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2010, 12:57:32 AM »

I know it is far too much work to ask, but it would be very interesting to see what the N/S distribution looks like with the rest of P312* removed, and what the distribution of the rest of P312* looks like with the N/S cluster removed.
I just downloaded the P312* confirmed guys from the P312* project.  I found 48 N/S guys out of 278 that had tested out to 37 markers (GataH4 is 27).

Looking at the geographic distribution for N/S, I think I'd actually call it East-West instead.....  or "Europe except Southeast".

N/S shows as far as east as the Ukraine, as far north as Scandinavia and as far west as the Isles, France and Portugal.  In the project, I don't see anythin in Italy or the Balkans.  In fact I don't see any south of the Danube until you get west of it's headwaters (France and Iberia).

I think the pattern is strong enough you could pull Ysearch for people beyond the project and see if anyone does show up south of the Danube.

The "rest of P312*" without N/S has pretty much he same breadth of distribution East-West, North and Southwest.  However, the "rest of P312*" does include Swizterland, Italy and Greece.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2010, 01:21:11 AM »

N/S shows as far as east as the Ukraine, as far north as Scandinavia and as far west as the Isles, France and Portugal.  In the project, I don't see anythin in Italy or the Balkans.  In fact I don't see any south of the Danube until you get west of it's headwaters (France and Iberia).

Just a thought.  P312* N/S seems to overlap with both L21+ and U106+ but, at least in the project, is lacking in SE Europe.  Perhaps this subclade was in both the L21 and U106 predominated* camps when they decided to move in different directions.

* I don't mean to imply any camp was pure one thing versus another.
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rms2
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« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2010, 07:07:01 AM »

There are quite a few N-S men in Ysearch who are not in the R-P312 and Subclades Project. I don't recall seeing any from the Balkans, but there may be one or two out there.

It seems to me most of them are in Iberia and France. Ronan Dorvillers, the admin of the Bretagne Project, is a North-South guy, for example, but he hasn't been SNP tested.

There are a number of them in the French Heritage Project. They're pretty easy to spot, once you get used to looking for that three-marker combination.

It's too bad the WTY hasn't turned up an SNP for the N-S Cluster. It would go a long way toward breaking up R-P312*.
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rms2
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« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2010, 07:10:11 AM »

I know it is far too much work to ask, but it would be very interesting to see what the N/S distribution looks like with the rest of P312* removed, and what the distribution of the rest of P312* looks like with the N/S cluster removed.

I'm not sure I want to take that on.

If I were in that cluster, I would start an FTDNA project for it.
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rms2
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« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2010, 07:47:36 AM »

I just took a quick look at the Iberian Peninsula DNA Project and counted 19 North-South guys.  There were also several others with 437=14, 448=18, but who only have 25 markers and so can't be counted in the cluster because we don't know their H4 value.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/IberianDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults

I don't count someone in the N-S Cluster unless he has the whole three-marker combination, because I know of quite a few guys who are one off it who are not R-P312*. For example, we have a few men with 437=14, 448=18 and H4=11 in the R-L21 Plus Project.

In the French Heritage Project I counted 11 N-S guys with the whole three-marker combination. There were also a few others with 437=14, 448=18, with only 25 markers, but not as many as in the Iberian Peninsula Project.

I didn't have time to check on which of the N-S men in both of those projects above are already in the R-P312 and Subclades Project. Some of them are, because I recognized their names, but many of them are not.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2010, 08:38:16 AM »

I did a query of Ysearch looking for R-P312* N/S.  I'm not that great Ysearch but here is the way I did it.  I manually entered the minimum 8 markers.
The N/S signature - 437=14 448=18 GataH4=10 and also I entered 393=13 426=12 388=12 455=11 454=11.  Except for 393=13, all of these other five are on-modal matches with all N/S people in the P312 project.  There is one 393=12 person so it is not pure 393=13.
I screened out all non-R1b haplogroups (there was a Q and something else) but included "unknown" haplogroups.

I did find one Italian and two Swiss folks:
FC53A   Impastato           Cinisi, Italy
S34UK   Summerrow   Canton, Zurich, Switzerland
Z9WCE   Keller           Switzerland

I did find one unusual Ysearch result.
SE225   R1b - Basque type   285 persons, Spain

Is P312* N/S strong among the Basque people?
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rms2
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« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2010, 12:42:23 PM »

. . .

I did find one unusual Ysearch result.
SE225   R1b - Basque type   285 persons, Spain

Is P312* N/S strong among the Basque people?

I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2010, 12:54:40 PM »

It is a good finding and certainly 285 Basque with this haplotype are many. But there are two other Italians beyond FC53A: YZDJ4 and ZB7ZR, coming from whole Italy from South to North and they have also DYS392=14 and one also DYS393=12, then probably more ancient than the Basque ones.

You know my theory of the "Out of Italy", but I never thought that R-P312 was born in Italy, but that R was in Italy till R-L51 and then migrated to North passing East and West the Alps.

Perhaps these new data must be interpreted.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2010, 01:01:05 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2010, 01:03:37 PM »

The two men from Switzerland are S34UK and Z9WCE, and they two have some mutations which demonstrate their ancientness. And of course Swiss and Italy are  linked very closely.
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vtilroe
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« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2010, 11:28:25 PM »

I did a quick SplitsTree4 neighbornet graph of the P312* guys from the R-P312 and Subclades project a few weeks ago at GoldenHind's request.  The NS cluster(s) sticks out like a sore thumb.  It's roughly between 1/5th to 1/6th of all P312*.
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« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2010, 07:16:45 AM »

I did a quick SplitsTree4 neighbornet graph of the P312* guys from the R-P312 and Subclades project a few weeks ago at GoldenHind's request.  The NS cluster(s) sticks out like a sore thumb.  It's roughly between 1/5th to 1/6th of all P312*.
That matches pretty close with the 17.2% estimate I came up with.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2010, 07:12:05 AM »

would be interesting to  divide europe up and compare variance of the N-S cluster in different areas.   I have heard several theories of origin and direction of spread from the beaker culture going from SW to NE to the Visigoths going the opposite way.  It would be nice to be able to eliminate some of the theories.  Also simply having a MRCA date for the whole group would be interesting.  I am presuming it is considerably younger than the S116 SNP.   
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« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2010, 09:42:34 AM »

would be interesting to  divide europe up and compare variance of the N-S cluster in different areas.   I have heard several theories of origin and direction of spread from the beaker culture going from SW to NE to the Visigoths going the opposite way.  It would be nice to be able to eliminate some of the theories.  Also simply having a MRCA date for the whole group would be interesting.  I am presuming it is considerably younger than the S116 SNP.   
Alan, I'm just reporting numbers.  I don't want to imply that the methodology is meaningful.

I have a spreadsheet with a built in "sum of the variance" calculated for 37 markers based on any set of selected haplotypes.  The data loaded is from the R-P312* as of the end of April and I've filtered to just the North/South Cluster (which I think should be the "East/West" Cluster or the "Scattered across Europe" Cluster.)

Here are the sum of the variances:
All (whole cluster): 14.1
East Europe: 6.9 (only 3 samples)
British Isles: 13.7
Scandinavia: 6.8 (only 4 samples)
West Europe: 11.8 (includes France, Germany, Netherlands, Spain, Portugal)
Colonial: 19

Spain and Portugal: 12.0 (only 3 samples)
France: 10.8 (7 samples)
Germany: 7.4 (5 samples)
Netherlands: 9.5 (only 2 samples)
England: 13.5 (10 samples)

I think the samples are too small yet although I did notice the Iberian variance is relatively high even at the limited sampling.
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« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2010, 09:51:24 AM »

would be interesting to  divide europe up and compare variance of the N-S cluster in different areas.   I have heard several theories of origin and direction of spread from the beaker culture going from SW to NE to the Visigoths going the opposite way.  It would be nice to be able to eliminate some of the theories.  Also simply having a MRCA date for the whole group would be interesting.  I am presuming it is considerably younger than the S116 SNP.   
Alan, I'm just reporting numbers.  I don't want to imply that the methodology is meaningful.

I have a spreadsheet with a built in "sum of the variance" calculated for 37 markers based on any set of selected haplotypes.  The data loaded is from the R-P312* as of the end of April and I've filtered to just the North/South Cluster (which I think should be the "East/West" Cluster or the "Scattered across Europe" Cluster.)

Here are the sum of the variances:
All (whole cluster): 14.1
East Europe: 6.9 (only 3 samples)
British Isles: 13.7
Scandinavia: 6.8 (only 4 samples)
West Europe: 11.8 (includes France, Germany, Netherlands, Spain, Portugal)
Colonial: 19

Spain and Portugal: 12.0 (only 3 samples)
France: 10.8 (7 samples)
Germany: 7.4 (5 samples)
Netherlands: 9.5 (only 2 samples)
England: 13.5 (10 samples)

I think the samples are too small yet although I did notice the Iberian variance is relatively high even at the limited sampling.

Do you think this is the Visigoths?   My inclination is that the N/S cluster is an early spread, not a late one; but I don't know.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2010, 10:25:56 AM »

Sure, why not? Spain is like Britain though. When you see R1a pop up there, you can be pretty certain that came from Scandinavia.

But P312* is no different, found throughout Scandinavia at similar frequency.
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« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2010, 11:22:07 AM »

...  Spain is like Britain though. When you see R1a pop up there, you can be pretty certain that came from Scandinavia.  ...
Why?  Isn't it possible that R1a, or at least some elements of it, spread during the Neolithic advances?  I don't know but just because there is a lot of R1a in Scandinavia and Slavic speaking countries, I wouldn't want to assume anything.
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« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2010, 11:27:10 AM »

...  Spain is like Britain though. When you see R1a pop up there, you can be pretty certain that came from Scandinavia.  ...
Why?  Isn't it possible that R1a, or at least some elements of it, spread during the Neolithic advances?  I don't know but just because there is a lot of R1a in Scandinavia and Slavic speaking countries, I wouldn't want to assume anything.

I think it is more probable that R1a in Southwestern Europe is due to recent migration rather than an older one, in my opinion anyway. Sure, some could have trickled in during the Neolithic, but the Vandals and so forth obviously carried R1a there.

R1a in Scandinavia runs about the same frequency as R1b1b2 there too. In Slavic Europe R1a is a much larger percentage of the population, but drops off some when one gets to Sweden.
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