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Author Topic: R1b1b2 in Mongolia might be L51*  (Read 3138 times)
argiedude
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« on: April 14, 2010, 05:05:09 PM »



http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k178/argiedude/MongoliaR1b1b2-426equals13.gif

I found 5 samples of R1b1b2 from Mongolia in smgf.org, and they all have the R1b1b2-ht15 general haplotype, but all 5 have DYS426=13, which fits best with haplogroup L51*. Only 1 in 100 R1b1b2-ht15 samples have 426=13.

All of them also have 385b=15 or 16, which though not modal in L51*, occurs more frequently than in ht15 samples. And 2 of them tested DYS464 and had a value of 18 in one of its markers, which is also another value found unusually frequently in L51* compared to ht15. This isn't definitive, of course. But I think a sample from Yemen was SNP-tested to belong to L51*, so there might be a precedent for a far reaching range for this haplogroup.

There are about 800 y-dna samples from Mongolia in smgf.org, so these 5 would constitute 0,5% of its y-dna. In yhrd there are about 400 Mongolian y-dna samples, and 2 of them seemed to be likely R1b1b2 samples, again resulting in a frequency of 0,5%. Those 2 also had 385b=15 (426 and 464 not tested).

I've previously looked over thousands of East Asian y-dna samples from yhrd.org and found 2 that belonged to R1b1b2, and both had 393=12, indicating a likely R1b1b2-ht35 haplogroup.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2010, 07:56:49 PM »

What is ht35 doing out east?
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2010, 08:02:01 PM »

What is ht35 doing out east?
Who can say they only went west?
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2010, 04:28:33 AM »

Some years ago I found on YHRD only 3 haplotypes like mine, and one was a Hui from China. I wrote about the possible presence of Romans in Liqian on Rootsweb when I had access to it. Chinese did a worst paper on this, testing only hg. P and not R or subclades. They lacked also DYS385 which could settle hg. R from others with similar values in East Asia.

Now I find tens of haplotypes like mine on YHRD, and what was a 33% of my matches, now is much less.
What do I mean? That Eastern Asian haplotypes can have a convergent mutations from different haplogroups than R, that they are very few anyway, that they are probably due to a back migration from West, like have denonstrated many recent papers re. the European expansion of Western haplogroups to Central Asia.

In East Asia we have 1 over 5 R1b1* in the Cruciani's paper, but 3 have been found in Italy.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2010, 08:08:42 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2010, 05:47:43 AM »

With DYS426=13 and DYS461=11 (above all. and others less important) I think that this is a clade different from the Western European ones and almost ancient in Mongolia, then not due to a recent immigration, but to an ancient one. Anyway I think from West. It would be interesting to test these samples for the available SNPs.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2010, 05:51:39 AM »

I am always waiting that someone tests the Rozen's SNPs, that I think will demonstrate a Western R1b1b2 different from an Eastern one. These Mongolians could be also R1b1b2/ht35 with DYS393=13 from 12.
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Maliclavelli


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OConnor
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« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2010, 06:27:36 AM »

I had wondered at a couple 12 marker matches in China in my
"Ancestral Origins"

12/12 marker exact matchs= 1/944.......Chinese Muslim (Central Asian Descent)
11/12 one step...................=1/944........Uygur (Central Asian origin)

Things look greener towards Europe

(One step works better for me because of my 393=12 and 390=10)

11/12 Matches

Georgia.............2/32
Lithuania..........5/851
Ukraine............8/1304
Hungary..........11/990....1.1%
Norway...........13/1137..1.1%
Sweden..........12/1400... .9%
Denmark...........9/718....1.3%
Czech.............. 7/546.....1.3%
Belgium............6/448.....1.3%
Poland...........15/3091
Italy...............46/2966...1.6%.....(9 are in Sicily)
Netherlands...21/1433....1.5%
Austria.............6/519......1.2%
Germany.........................1.4%
Spain.............43/2916....1.5%

Switzerland....48/1516...3.2%
Wales............45/1712...2.6%
Scotland.......236/9507...2.5%
France...........69/2882....2.4%
England and Ireland are both 1.9%
« Last Edit: April 15, 2010, 06:49:21 AM by OConnor » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2010, 01:14:50 PM »

You match my ancestor Del Badia of the 15th century in the first 12 markers, except for DYS19 (we have 15 and you the modal 14), but this is a convergent mutation, being we very far in our MRCA: we are R1b1b2a and you R1b1b2a1b5.

For this I think that any comparison must be done after a SNPs exam.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2010, 04:13:31 AM »

These 5 Mongols presuppose a MRCA about 375/450 YBP. We don't know if some more ancient relative is present among Mongolian people. Anyway they derive from a Hg. R (whichever clade) which has a link with Western Europeans not in recent times. The closest to him are probably in the British Isles, we don't know if because they are more tested or not. By knowing the SNPs of this haplogroup we could say something more precise. By its DYS464=15,15,18,18 I can hypothesize that rather than a R-ht35 this haplogroup is a R-ht15, more likely a subclade of R1b1b2a1b.
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Maliclavelli


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argiedude
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« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2010, 06:40:59 PM »

By its DYS464=15,15,18,18 I can hypothesize that rather than a R-ht35 this haplogroup is a R-ht15, more likely a subclade of R1b1b2a1b.

But ht15's modal is 15, 15, 17, 17.
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argiedude
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« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2010, 06:49:38 PM »



http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k178/argiedude/R1b1b2-L51frequency.gif

More stuff. First, I hadn't noticed a secondary marker in the graph I posted above, which makes the case for L51* even further. All 5 Mongolian samples have 461=11. This value is modal for the immediately upstream clade of L51* (the ht35 haplogroups M269* and L23*). On the other hand, 461=11 occurs in only 1 in 8 ht15 samples. And from what I've seen, though I can't guarantee it, I'm pretty sure L51* is also modal for 461=11, which would make sense anyhow since its immediate upstream relatives are, too. So things are looking pretty interesting for the likelihood of L51* in Mongolia.

I also made a map of L51*'s distribution, using samples that at least tested for the crucial marker DYS426. I only made an exception for Turkey, because of its importance, so its estimate is very dicey. The map indeed is very revealing. There's a definite pattern to the results.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2010, 06:50:02 PM by argiedude » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2010, 12:20:55 AM »

Argiedude, I thank you for your map, but it is the demonstration, I think pretty definitive, of my theory that R1b1* was born in Italy at least till R-L51 as I have always supported in these last years, and above all in the Rhaetian Zone from where it went out from Italy to Central Europe.

Re. this Mongolian sample (because they are 5 but have a recent ancestor not more than 500 YBP), its DYS464=15,15,18,18 could be generated by the modal 15,15,17,17 rather then my more ancient 14,14,16,17. If it finds the closest to itself in the British Isles, probably it is because it descends from the first which left Italy, the British one to West and these to East.

This is my thinking, my hypotheses if you want. Anyway your map is very very interesting.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2010, 02:29:53 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2010, 12:46:35 PM »

I think I am able to explain these Mongolian haplotypes and their link with the British Isles. There are some Germans (Esau) linked to some Martens (now Ysearch MNUF5) migrated to Russia and linked to some British men of probably Saxon extraction. From these Russians of German extraction probably come these Mongols in recent times. But I think that this argument isn't important. More important is the map done by Argiedude, if it is reliable.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2010, 04:11:37 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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secherbernard
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« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2010, 02:30:18 AM »



http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k178/argiedude/R1b1b2-L51frequency.gif

I also made a map of L51*'s distribution, using samples that at least tested for the crucial marker DYS426. I only made an exception for Turkey, because of its importance, so its estimate is very dicey. The map indeed is very revealing. There's a definite pattern to the results.
If I have understood, your map is not the distribution of L51*, but the distribution of DYS426=13. The frequency you give is on the whole population, or only on R1b population?
You told that 1 in 100 R1b1b2-ht15 have DYS426=13. How do you remove these ht15 from your map ?
« Last Edit: April 18, 2010, 04:17:33 AM by secherbernard » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2010, 04:04:49 AM »

I think that Argiedude presupposes that who has DYS426=13 and some of the other markers values are R-L51*. Even though it isn't certain and we would have need of a SNPs test, there are high probabilities that the most part of DYS426=13 are R-L51*. If we subtract the 1% of possible false positive, anyway in Italy we have always the high percentage in Europe (and over the world).

I think that the percentage is calculated over the whole Y if Argiedude mentions 200 samples of the Pichler's paper and the R-L51* are 8. But I'll control that paper, about which I spoke in the past on many forums and from which I signalled the probable R-L51* also on this forum.
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« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2010, 04:43:21 AM »

This is my post of 23 August 2009 on the thread: The Italian Refugium:

"I have spoken for (and from) long time of the Rhaetian-Etruskan Fatherland. Argiedude has had the merit to take our attention on the paper of Pichler et alii on the “Rhaetian” population I spoke about largely when it was published (Genetic Structure in Contemporary South Tyrolean Isolated populations Revealed by Analysis of Y-Chromosome, mtDNA, and Alu Polymorphisms, Human Biology, 2006, v. 78, no. 4, pp. 441-464). Also if  he has reported wrongly some data I corrected, I think that the other ones within the R1b haplogroup are very interesting. First of all we haven’t only the two guys (number 52) reported by Argiedude as R-L23-, but also no. 8 and 47. We have also  some R-L23+: 10, 16, 40, 45, and some R-L51+: 24, 27, 38. Then among  92 R1b we have 5 R-L23- ( 5,43%), 4 R-L23+ (4,34%) and 5 R-L51+ (5,43%). Then more than 15% under R-S116+. If we calculate the variance of these haplotypes it would take us well beyond the Younger Dryas."
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« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2010, 04:49:03 AM »

After I corrected my post:

"In another forum I corrected my posting:
“The oddity of the previous calculation of the haplotypes under R-S116+ in the Tyrolese (R-L23-=5, R-L23+=4 and R-L51+=5) made me reconsider the matter. In fact we have: R-L23- (no. 8, 47,52) = 5 (5,43% of R1b; 2,57% of the sample); R-L23+ (no. 3, 10, 16, 29, 37, 40, 45, 46)= 8 (8,69% of R1b; 4,12% of the sample); R-L51+ ( no. 18, 24, 27, 38, 44) = 9 (9,78% of R1b; 4,63% of the sample). The percentage of the haplotypes under R-S116+ is 23,9%.
Then in the calculation of Argiedude the Tyrolean R-L23- is 2,57% of the individuals tested, one of the higher percentage absolutely found”.
Then I was speaking about the haplotypes which precede R-S116/P312+. I think that on this we must debate. Noboby  denies that R (probably R1b1*) comes from Asia via Russia (there is an interesting
research of Argiedude on this: there is an European R1b1* and an African one, very different). I am discussing when this haplotype arrived. I think not so recently as someone is thinking (see Vizachero), but probably 15,000 YBP. Now that seems demonstrated that some subclades weren’t in Middle East, we must ascertain where was born R1b1b2-L23-, R1b1b2-L23+, R1b1b2-L23+/L150- (the only sample is so far the Italian Romitti), R1b1b2-L23+/L150+ (my friend Gioiello Tognoni etc.), R1b1b2-L51+ etc.
My posting on the Rhaetia tried to discuss this. If R1b1b2-P312+ was born in Asia, I think we should find there all the subclades, otherwise we can think to a back migration too."

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secherbernard
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« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2010, 11:55:36 AM »

Is there an estimation of the TMRCA of this North Italian L51* cluster ?
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« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2010, 01:13:21 PM »

I haven't at hands the paper, anyway I leave this calculations to Vizachero, Nordtvedt, Klyosov etc. There isn't an agreement on these numbers. For me it is more important the path from R1b1* to at least R-L51+ Italy has.
I have said many times that I think that these haplogroups are in Italy from before the Younger Dryas and also R-S116 presupposes a bottleneck that can be happened only in one place and after the Younger Dryas I cannot imagine a bottleneck everywhere in Europe.
The proofs I have for my theory are infinite. Also the last paper on 17q21 (see Dienekes blog) demonstrates clearly that Italy (with North Adriatic emerged and the Balkanic shore till Greece and Provence's shore) has been the cuche of the Mediterranean peopling, and hg. R for me was the most important.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2010, 02:50:25 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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argiedude
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« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2010, 04:30:01 PM »



http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k178/argiedude/R1b1b2-L51frequency.gif

I also made a map of L51*'s distribution, using samples that at least tested for the crucial marker DYS426. I only made an exception for Turkey, because of its importance, so its estimate is very dicey. The map indeed is very revealing. There's a definite pattern to the results.
If I have understood, your map is not the distribution of L51*, but the distribution of DYS426=13. The frequency you give is on the whole population, or only on R1b population?
You told that 1 in 100 R1b1b2-ht15 have DYS426=13. How do you remove these ht15 from your map ?

My bad, I didn't express that very well. No, I took the R1b1b2 samples with 426=13, and THEN examined them for several other markers that I'm very confident are modal in L51* but not in other R1b1b2 haplogroups, such as 389B=15, or 464d=18, or 461=11, or 446=14. This way, I was able to gauge what proportion of the 426=13 samples in a given population belonged to L51* and which were just ht15 that had suffered the occasional rare mutation in that STR. My own sample happens to be an ht15 with the rare mutation 426=13. By doing this, for example, I was able to determine that all or almost all Irish R1b1b2 with 426=13 are probably NOT L51*, while on the other hand probably all or almost all Swiss R1b1b2 with 426=13 probably ARE L51*. I didn't clarify that very well. Maddi at dna-forums also thought my map was showing just R1b1b2 with 426=13. If it were, than Iberia would have had a higher percentage than Scandinavia and Eastern Europe.


I think that Argiedude presupposes that who has DYS426=13 and some of the other markers values are R-L51*. Even though it isn't certain and we would have need of a SNPs test, there are high probabilities that the most part of DYS426=13 are R-L51*.

Exactly. 426=13 is the minimum qualifier. But then I look at several other STRs that I'm convinced are different in L51* than in other R1b1b2. About half of the R1b1b2 with 426=13 belong to L51*, the other half are ht15. That's the pooled result of all of Europe.

Is there an estimation of the TMRCA of this North Italian L51* cluster ?

South Tyrol can't be considered representative of North Italians. Or for that matter, of Germanics. This is where the unusually high frequency of L51* occurs. But there's a second hotspot of L51*, and that's Switzerland. So, obviously, I would think the L51* anomaly in South Tyrol is a diffusion from the Germanic side, not from the Italian side. At the same time, south Italy has the 3rd highest frequency of L51*, and it's pretty notable. If I were to put this all together, I would gamble that L51* is uniformly diffused throughout all of Italy at about a 1% or 2% rate, and the higher rates of L51* in the bordering Germanic regions of North Italy are due to a subsequent phenomenon after L51* diffused from North Italy to the other side of the Alps.
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« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2010, 12:18:19 AM »

The fact that you are right is demonstrated also by the paper: Harald Niederstaetter et alii, Recently introduced Y-SNPs improve the resolution within Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b in a central European population sample (Tyrol, Austria), 2008 Elsevier, on the other side of Tyrol, that Austrian one. There R1b is 31,8 of the total, then the half of North Italy, and among this 59,5% R-106, 21,4% R-152, 2,4% R-198 and only 19,0% all the other subclades. There Germanic people is the most part, whereas in the Italian Alto Adige (South Tyrol) they are genetically Rhaetians, i. e . Italians.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2010, 07:55:16 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2010, 07:46:19 AM »

Some times ago I put on Ysearch from SMGF, among others, 3 Brazilians from Italian descent, from the Rhaetian region: 65X69 (Bez Batti), ADR66 (Henrique) and PH67W (De Bona). They are DYS426=13 and DYS 461=11. They are closely related among them  and match the Mongolian haplotype and the others linked with it.
These Italians have also DYS449=26 (and one  =28). This haplotype (or similar) has, in a sample I found, at 29=164, at 30=173, at 28=36 (among them Bez Batti), at 31=45, at 27=10, at 32=12, at 26=2 (De Bona and an Iranian: but with some mutations also Henrique), at 33=10, at 25=1 (a Smith), at 34=3, at 24=0, at 35=0.

If my PC was OK, I could make a diagram, but the meaning is evident.
The frequency of the most diffused values are higher among Spaniands and Latin Americans and among British (or men from the British Isles).

The values more extreme are in Italians and Asians (but with a Smith at 25).
DYS 464 goes from 14,15,17,17, to 15,15,17,17, but one Italian is 15,15,17,18, the nearest ancestor of the Mongolian (or German) sample.

It seems that this haplotype, if it is an R-L51+, is probably the ancestor of an R-P312+, that can be born in Italy and linked with the North African haplotype about which we have spoken on another thread.

One of these Italian linked, the unique I found in the world, has the very rare DYS449=28.2 (Garbero 264XB).

(I apologize but with my PC out I am not able to do better, not being able to print etc.)
« Last Edit: May 05, 2010, 12:55:41 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2010, 06:06:45 AM »

An Italian, ancestor of these haplotypes I put on Ysearch from SMGF, is Baldacci(4GW9W), now updated, who has DYS464=15,15,16,16.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2010, 08:03:26 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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