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Author Topic: Another Italian L-21?  (Read 2891 times)
NealtheRed
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« on: April 28, 2010, 04:42:11 PM »

I was looking for matches to the L159 Modal and I came across a Salvagno listed on Ysearch: BV682.

He lists his MDKA from Desenzano Lago Di Garda, Italy. Anyone know where there that is?
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2010, 05:11:16 PM »

Desenzano is in North Italy, Lombardy. But are you sure he is R-L21? I think not. He could be R-P312 or other R-haplgroups but I wouldn't bet a dime on R-L21.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2010, 05:36:25 PM »

Desenzano is in North Italy, Lombardy. But are you sure he is R-L21? I think not. He could be R-P312 or other R-haplgroups but I wouldn't bet a dime on R-L21.

I e-mailed him and asked to upgrade his markers. Rich pointed out to me that one of the markers that is associated with P312 is DYS437. He noticed that 14 on 437 is usually P312*.

Salvagno has 15 on DYS437. So, if he is 12 on DYS492, then chances are he could be L21+. If he writes me back, I'll keep you updated.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2010, 05:37:10 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2010, 06:13:30 PM »

Desenzano is in North Italy, Lombardy. But are you sure he is R-L21? I think not. He could be R-P312 or other R-haplgroups but I wouldn't bet a dime on R-L21.

I e-mailed him and asked to upgrade his markers. Rich pointed out to me that one of the markers that is associated with P312 is DYS437. He noticed that 14 on 437 is usually P312*.

Salvagno has 15 on DYS437. So, if he is 12 on DYS492, then chances are he could be L21+. If he writes me back, I'll keep you updated.
I can confirm that 437=14, which is 1 below WAMH, is fairly unusual for R-L21*, only about 4%.
The converse is not necessarily true.  Just because someone is 437>=15 doesn't mean they are L21+.  P312* has a lot 437>=15 as well.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2010, 06:22:24 PM »


I can confirm that 437=14, which is 1 below WAMH, is fairly unusual for R-L21*, only about 4%.


Awesome. That's all I needed, thanks.

Now, hopefully he can upgrade to higher resolution!
« Last Edit: April 28, 2010, 06:30:36 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

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rms2
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« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2010, 07:37:44 PM »

It's the combination of 437=14, 448=18, and H4=10 that is sure to be P312*. (That's the R1b North-South thing, which is really widespread, btw.)

There are quite a few L21+ guys with 437=14, although, as Mike pointed out, they're a small percentage of the whole.
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rms2
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« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2010, 07:47:37 PM »

This evening I spotted a new R-L21 in the Italy DNA Project: Kit N58990. No name is listed, and the haplotype is only 12 markers long, so I haven't a clue about this one. I couldn't find a Ysearch entry using that kit number.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Italy/default.aspx?section=yresults

He's one we don't yet have in the R-L21 Plus Project, so I am trying to recruit him.
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rms2
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« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2010, 10:00:57 AM »

This evening I spotted a new R-L21 in the Italy DNA Project: Kit N58990. No name is listed, and the haplotype is only 12 markers long, so I haven't a clue about this one. I couldn't find a Ysearch entry using that kit number.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Italy/default.aspx?section=yresults

He's one we don't yet have in the R-L21 Plus Project, so I am trying to recruit him.

Well, now I have some more information on this person, but I can't reveal it yet because he hasn't made his name public. Suffice it to say the surname is Italian.

I am hoping he will join the R-L21 Plus Project.

(I hate waiting, and this hobby is the slowest-moving damned thing ever invented!)
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OConnor
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« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2010, 10:04:36 PM »

Like a fine wine Rich. :)
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M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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rms2
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« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2010, 07:14:21 AM »

Like a fine wine Rich. :)

This bottle has still not arrived yet.

That's a recurrent problem for the R-L21 Plus Project: not all our continental L21+ guys join the project.

Maybe they cruise by certain disreputable internet forums, where they are told that an L21+ result makes one Irish or British, and decide public "agonizing reappraisal" of one's ethnic identity is not for them.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2010, 07:33:02 AM by rms2 » Logged

Mike Walsh
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« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2010, 12:26:23 PM »

....
That's a recurrent problem for the R-L21 Plus Project: not all our continental L21+ guys join the project.

Maybe they cruise by certain disreputable internet forums, where they are told that an L21+ result makes one Irish or British, and decide public "agonizing reappraisal" of one's ethnic identity is not for them.
I think the fault lays on both sides.  There are Isles-centric people that for reason I don't fully understand, think its important for their deep ancestry to originate there.

I've also encountered Continentalists who seem to fear being discovered to be anything thing but what their national heritage seems to indicate, or who for some reason find it important not to be in any way connected to Isles folks.  In one forum I was criticized for using the word clan because it was British Isles centric.  I changed my labeling to be more neutral but also found out that the only worse than being a Celtic was being an Anglo-Saxon.  ??????  I never understood but I just think they wanted to be a Frank or something and if they weren't that, that's it... they were that, period.

I don't know.  I don't get it.  Maybe it's just because I'm a washed over, doube/triple/quadruple acculturated American type on most of my lineages I don't have the same singular identity sense.   My ancestry identities are associated with various lineages, each with differences at different points in time.
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Jdean
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« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2010, 01:07:56 PM »

Some distant cousins I'm in contact with via genealogy were chuffed to beans to find out my R-L21 status indicated Anglo Saxon. I replied that R-L21 was highly associated with Celts but found all over Europe only to read in a later email that my R-L21 status meant the family was Anglo Saxon.

Whatever makes you happy I suppose.
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rms2
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« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2010, 07:56:29 PM »

Some distant cousins I'm in contact with via genealogy were chuffed to beans to find out my R-L21 status indicated Anglo Saxon. I replied that R-L21 was highly associated with Celts but found all over Europe only to read in a later email that my R-L21 status meant the family was Anglo Saxon.

Whatever makes you happy I suppose.


Anglo-Saxon? Have they seen our web site?
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Jdean
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« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2010, 08:38:59 PM »

Some distant cousins I'm in contact with via genealogy were chuffed to beans to find out my R-L21 status indicated Anglo Saxon. I replied that R-L21 was highly associated with Celts but found all over Europe only to read in a later email that my R-L21 status meant the family was Anglo Saxon.

Whatever makes you happy I suppose.


Anglo-Saxon? Have they seen our web site?

Probably not.

What gets me is these people, who are some of the most careful genealogists I've come across, are relying on me for information about DNA. If I can't get this simple message across to them what hope have I got?
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eochaidh
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« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2011, 09:10:01 AM »

I was notified last night, 8/23/11, that I have a 63/67 match with an Italian man within the L21 Project (Bonnet, N46295). My other matches at 67 and 37 markers are with Dougherty 64/67 (Ireland) and Greenlee 63/67 (Scotland). I have other Greenlee matches who show their origin as Ireland. Most of my Y-DNA matches are with men from the north of Ireland and Scotland. I am a first generation Irish-American from County Wexford, Ireland.

I've been around these forums long enough to know the ridicule and disparaging terms given to Irish religious orders when it is suggested that an Irishman had moved from Ireland to the Continent, so I'll ask if anyone has ideas about when this Italian line got to Ireland and Scotland. This Italian L21 has DYS390=25 and DYS481=24, which I had thought might be an indication of pre-M222, which also originated on the Continent.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe  FTDNA 397610      Ysearch  fsh3f
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rms2
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« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2011, 09:22:37 AM »

. . .

I've been around these forums long enough to know the ridicule and disparaging terms given to Irish religious orders when it is suggested that an Irishman had moved from Ireland to the Continent . . .


Hmmm . . .

So, you make a trip over to this forum, dredge up an old thread no one has posted on in over a year to announce your match, implying that it somehow "proves" that continental L21 can be chalked up to roving Irishmen.

By the way, it is an absolute and outright lie to claim that Irish religious orders have been disparaged in this forum. What has been disparaged is the outrageous claim that continental L21 should be attributed to the Irish in every case. Is it not rather more disparaging to attribute massive sexual indiscretions to pious, celibate monks, so much so that L21 has a frequency in France of about 15% (of all y-dna - higher than that in some areas)?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2011, 09:23:48 AM by rms2 » Logged

eochaidh
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« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2011, 09:46:39 AM »

. . .

I've been around these forums long enough to know the ridicule and disparaging terms given to Irish religious orders when it is suggested that an Irishman had moved from Ireland to the Continent . . .


Hmmm . . .

So, you make a trip over to this forum, dredge up an old thread no one has posted on in over a year to announce your match, implying that it somehow "proves" that continental L21 can be chalked up to roving Irishmen.

By the way, it is an absolute and outright lie to claim that Irish religious orders have been disparaged in this forum. What has been disparaged is the outrageous claim that continental L21 should be attributed to the Irish in every case. Is it not rather more disparaging to attribute massive sexual indiscretions to pious, celibate monks, so much so that L21 has a frequency in France of about 15% (of all y-dna - higher than that in some areas)?

I said the opposite of what you claim. I will state clearly that this proves that L21 from Italy came to Ireland. No one is uninformed enough to think that any Irishman, religious or otherwise, ever left Ireland for the Continent and left a genetic trace. Clearly, this is not, and never has been, a possiblity.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe 

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe
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rms2
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« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2011, 10:00:43 AM »



I said the opposite of what you claim. I will state clearly that this proves that L21 from Italy came to Ireland. No one is uninformed enough to think that any Irishman, religious or otherwise, ever left Ireland for the Continent and left a genetic trace. Clearly, this is not, and never has been, a possiblity.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe  

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe

Cute.

I'm not saying this is the case in this instance, but some of our project members are Americans who are less than certain of their European origins and who sometimes make errors in attributing to themselves this or that y-dna ancestor. Some of them are adoptees.

Occasionally an exotic continental origin turns out to be wrong and a more prosaic and typical (for an American) British Isles origin is the reality.

On the other hand, it would be wrong to assume that a 63/67 match with a man of putative Irish descent (also an American) always means that Ireland is the ultimate y-dna homeland of both ends of the match.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2011, 10:01:31 AM by rms2 » Logged

eochaidh
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« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2011, 10:45:13 AM »

I briefly entertained the idea that Ireland may be the homeland of our match, but dismissed it. I would say that Italy, (or surrounding areas) is the homeland of the Kehoe/Dougherty/Greenlee/Bonnet match, but I'd like others input as to how and when.
I'll be the one explaining this match to some of the Greenlees, and I want to have some good information.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe
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rms2
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« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2011, 10:54:59 AM »

I briefly entertained the idea that Ireland may be the homeland of our match, but dismissed it. I would say that Italy, (or surrounding areas) is the homeland of the Kehoe/Dougherty/Greenlee/Bonnet match, but I'd like others input as to how and when.
I'll be the one explaining this match to some of the Greenlees, and I want to have some good information.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe

Have fun with that.
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eochaidh
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« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2011, 11:07:20 AM »

[/center]
NEW INFORMATION: As it turns out, Mr. Bonnet's family has been in the U.S. since the 1740s. His line has been traced back to the Swiss Alps, but he does not match that line on his Y-DNA. My Y line has been in the U.S. since 1932 when my Dad was 6 years old.

My last Autosomal run with Eurogenes shows me as 41% Northern European, 39% Northwest European, 15% Western European, 3% Southern European and 2% Baltic. My Mom was half French-Canadian/half Scots Irish, so that could account for the 3% Southern European, but 3%, although higher than other Irish is not far above average for the U.K. I know that autosamal test can vary, but this seems accurate to my "known" ancestry. Most of the French side was from Brittany and Normandy.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2011, 08:56:34 AM »

1
I’d be very glad if you all had an Italian origin. Unfortunately I think having demonstrated that R-L21 isn’t present in Italy, except, perhaps, that of Argiedude, which could demonstrate an ancient origin also of this haplogroup from Italy with his values, but he hasn’t done the verifications I asked him.

Unfortunately for me Bonnet is of French origin and not Italian. If we want to say that also these French born out of the Italian border testify this ancient rest of the origin of this haplogroup  from the Italian refugium like Argiedude could be, I’d be very glad, but for what we know Bonnet, like his surname says, is a French. One of those Valdensians migrated to Piedmont by the persecutions of Their Lords, the Kings of France.

2
The paper of Busby et al. discussed in another thread is very useful also for our argument. It seem that R-L21 there is in Italy, of course not the recent R-M222, but an ancestral form of it. These are the data:

Central Italy (Longitude 12,97031) = 0,009% out of 115 tested
Italy (Longitude 12.367) = 0 out of 34
North Italy (Longitude 9,669953) = 0,031 out of 65 tested
Italy North (Longitude 10.800) = 0,008 out of 124 tested
South Italy (Longitude 16,80744) = 0,012 out of 252 tested
Italy South (Longitude 14.650) = 0

Then R-L21 in Italy there is. Percentages around 1% are negligible. They could come from migration inside Italy. More interesting is the 3,1% in North Italy. The question is the same:
are they due to medieval immigration or more recognizable ones like those of Bonnet and Leimone from France or they are the remnants of the origin of this haplogroup like the case of Argiedude could be?

With more data and more SNPs I think we’ll be able to answer quickly this question.

3
North Italy (Longitude 9,669953) is in Lombardy, then everything would make us think to a migration linked to Lombards, but it is the place of origin of Argiedude, with his particular cluster and different from all the others known, except that of the few Callaways, of unknown origin.

I hope that my hypothesis of an Italian R-L21 as a remnant of the Italian Refugium (at least in part) is that right.


« Last Edit: August 27, 2011, 08:58:47 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2011, 09:59:15 AM »

Unfortunately for me Bonnet is of French origin and not Italian. If we want to say that also these French born out of the Italian border testify this ancient rest of the origin of this haplogroup  from the Italian refugium like Argiedude could be, I’d be very glad, but for what we know Bonnet, like his surname says, is a French. One of those Valdensians migrated to Piedmont by the persecutions of Their Lords, the Kings of France.
Do you know that Bonnet is related to the Valdensians or is just a speculation? The reason I ask is that he tested more STRs and has a match with an Irish person.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2011, 12:18:29 PM »

Mike, I have written a lot on this argument here. We should find the thread. Then I did my researches and the town of origin was in one of the centers of the Valdensians in Piedmont, therefore my conclusions were believable. If I could exam the two samples, I could say something more carefully, but recently in this forum I think having found a link of the Jewish R-L21 cluster with a Rodgers, probably from French Roger, then the link is possible. If they are Normans I don't know, but also this is possible.
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rms2
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« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2011, 12:50:22 PM »

As I recall, his paper trail efforts led him to a family that was French Waldensian, but it now seems likely that may have been an error, given his new match.

As I said a few posts back, sometimes people make mistakes in their paper trail genealogies. Rather than having a somewhat exotic continental line of descent, they end up finding something much more typical for an American: British Isles descent.

Such incidents don't mean that Ireland is the source of continental L21. Most of the time they simply mean that an American who only thought he was of this or that continental origin is really the descendant of an Irish immigrant to North America.

« Last Edit: August 27, 2011, 12:52:28 PM by rms2 » Logged

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