World Families Forums - Some Ht 35/15 observations

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
December 29, 2014, 04:10:49 AM
Home Help Search Login Register

+  World Families Forums
|-+  General Forums - Note: You must Be Logged In to post. Anyone can browse.
| |-+  R1b General (Moderator: rms2)
| | |-+  Some Ht 35/15 observations
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Some Ht 35/15 observations  (Read 2877 times)
MHammers
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 347


« on: April 25, 2010, 11:01:33 PM »

Hello all, first post here

With some extra time recently, I put together a spreadsheet with R1b1b2 haplotypes to see if there is a pattern for where "Ht 35" entered Europe and where "Ht 15" emerged.  I used 9 markers and tried to exclude as many similiar, but not R1b1b2 haplotypes as possible.  Vince's Ht 35 project was used for the source data.

First I determined the modal for each group (L23-, L23+, and so on).   Then I derived which haplotypes were the most divergent from the modal within the 9 markers.  These derived haplotypes and their neighbors were what I used to search YHRD.  YHRD doesn't breakdown into SNPs much, so that is a limitation.

In searching I excluded western Europe because it would be too noisy statistically.  I searched Russia including the N Caucasus, SE Europe(minus Ukraine for Ht 35) Turkey, S Caucasus, and Asia (which includes Iran, Central and South Asia, and Uyghur populations).  Other locations may or may not have been more informative, but my supposition is that "Ht 35" arrived from either the Balkans or the Eurasian steppe and passed through the sampled locations.  Admittedly, these are proxies for possible ancient populations so that must be considered until more aDna is found.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AhMWaONqUJYpdG1FVWxmdk4wZWtKb251aDA0TjNsNEE&hl=en

SE Europe had a higher variance and diversity of haplotypes on the derived haplotypes than Russia.  However, when I finally collected all probable ht's including
modals, Russia's variance surpassed SE Europe (.30 to .22).  In regards to Ht 15, it seems to emerge somewhere in eastern Europe as opposed to SE Europe.

Thanks,
Mike
Logged

Ydna: R1b-Z253**


Mtdna: T

NealtheRed
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 930


« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2010, 11:21:40 AM »

Hi Mike,

Thank you for crunching those numbers, as I am no student of statistics (other than a cursory knowledge)!

So ht15 has more variance in Russia?
Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



MHammers
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 347


« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2010, 11:37:32 AM »

I doubt it, but I haven't checked for Ht 15 either.  It might be more modal and generally younger going east.  "Ht 35" has more variance in Russia than SE Europe when all possible haplotypes are included, but statistically I don't know what that means in terms of age or migrations.  While SE Europe seems to have more older and divergent haplotypes of Ht 35 overall, but lower variance when you include everything.

YHRD is biased towards the west, so it's hard to say and the Balkans are a crossroads between Europe and the Middle East which may show a distortion in variance.

I think the spreadsheet is viewable now.  I'm still figuring out Google docs.
Logged

Ydna: R1b-Z253**


Mtdna: T

MHammers
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 347


« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2010, 11:43:16 PM »

I  further calculated the variance for as many probable "Ht 35" haplotypes for the Caucasus and Turkey.

Turkey- .342, n=86
Caucasus - .282, n=50

The variance for Turkey is not surprising as SW Asia seems to be a hotspot for early R1b1 to R1b1b2.  Also, one thing I noticed with the SE Europe sample is that a cluster of haplotypes with 392=14 (about 20% of the sample) predominate in south Italy and Sicily which have a variance of .42 by themselves.  When these are removed from the SE Europe sample, the variance for this region drops to .15.  It seems that some early M269* set out along the Mediterranean (Cardial/Neolithic?) or maybe came in later historical times as Greeks, Jews, or Phoenicians.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2010, 11:53:21 PM by MHammers » Logged

Ydna: R1b-Z253**


Mtdna: T

NealtheRed
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 930


« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2010, 09:15:45 AM »

Hi Mike,

So with disregard to DYS392 = 14 in the SE Europe samples, the variance is higher amongst those samples from the Caucasus?
Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



MHammers
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 347


« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2010, 10:17:57 AM »

Hi Mike,

So with disregard to DYS392 = 14 in the SE Europe samples, the variance is higher amongst those samples from the Caucasus?

Neal,

No, I have .28 for the Caucasus, which is a little lower than Russia at .30.  They are the next highest after Turkey.  SE Europe is .22, .15 without the 392=14's.  R1b1b2 probably diffused in all directions at different times and there are several M269* Ht 35 group members with 392=14.  However, I do think that if R1b was carried predominantly by the Neolithic farmers then the Balkan variance would be higher than Russia, but it is not, especially when a small minority of 392=14 men are excluded.  It would be nice to have an decent SNP breakdown for YHRD.

Mike
« Last Edit: April 27, 2010, 10:25:30 AM by MHammers » Logged

Ydna: R1b-Z253**


Mtdna: T

MHammers
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 347


« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2010, 10:28:00 AM »

Even with the 392=14's removed from all samples and recalculated the order stays the same.  However, it drops significantly for SE Europe, where as the other areas have more haplotype diversity overall.
Logged

Ydna: R1b-Z253**


Mtdna: T

NealtheRed
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 930


« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2010, 10:38:30 AM »

Hi Mike,

So with disregard to DYS392 = 14 in the SE Europe samples, the variance is higher amongst those samples from the Caucasus?

Neal,

No, I have .28 for the Caucasus, which is a little lower than Russia at .30.  They are the next highest after Turkey.  SE Europe is .22, .15 without the 392=14's.  R1b1b2 probably diffused in all directions at different times and there are several M269* Ht 35 group members with 392=14.  However, I do think that if R1b was carried predominantly by the Neolithic farmers then the Balkan variance would be higher than Russia, but it is not, especially when a small minority of 392=14 men are excluded.  It would be nice to have an decent SNP breakdown for YHRD.

Mike


Hi Mike,

I see now. I was confusing the Caucasus with Russia, but now I know you are referring to the Caucasus, proper.
Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



MHammers
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 347


« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2010, 12:16:29 PM »

Of course, the variance would be meaningless, if the SE Europe sample is M269* and the Russians are mostly L23+.  Nonetheless, it is interesting since R1b in Russia is a very small percentage of the Y population.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2010, 12:19:52 PM by MHammers » Logged

Ydna: R1b-Z253**


Mtdna: T

NealtheRed
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 930


« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2010, 12:49:10 PM »

I am assuming you are referring to the parts of Russia between the Black and Caspian Seas, as well as the Pontic Steppe.

Is the sampling frame from that area of Russia?
Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



MHammers
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 347


« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2010, 02:38:33 PM »

I am assuming you are referring to the parts of Russia between the Black and Caspian Seas, as well as the Pontic Steppe.

Is the sampling frame from that area of Russia?

Russia as in the current Russian Federation territory.  The majority of the sample come from European Russia with many in the south (Rostov, Saratov, Stavropol, etc.), so yes there are some in the vicinity of the steppe.  But also, from places like Kaluga and Vladivoistok. I plan on looking at Ukraine to see how it matches up. The small amount of R1b there is widely distributed when you consider the size of the country.  There is one in a Ural metapopulation (Mansi I think) I didn't include which looks very R1b1b2 with 393=12. 
« Last Edit: April 27, 2010, 11:31:51 PM by MHammers » Logged

Ydna: R1b-Z253**


Mtdna: T

MHammers
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 347


« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2010, 06:33:08 PM »

I ran some more calculations for probable Ukraine "Ht 35/15"and Russia "Ht 15".  Hopefully, the haplotypes correspond to the SNPs where 35/15 are located.  I did notice some likely R1b1* and R1b-M73 which I threw out of the samples.  No doubt a few are indistinguishable with the limited markers available in YHRD.

Results
Ukraine Ht 35 - .16, n=13
Ukraine Ht 15 - .384, n=35
Russia Ht 15 - .281, n=40

The Ukraine Ht 35 is similiar to most of SE Europe, but the sample size is really low to provide too much interpretation.  Still, the SW Asia to Europe hypothesis holds up with the Balaresque study.  In this case, I see an origin in Turkey or other SW Asia, with some early Ht 35 going west towards the Balkans/Mediterranean (due to some high variance individuals around Sicily/S. Italy, maybe with some R1b1* as well).  However, the Caucasus and Russia (both higher Ht 35 variance than SE Europe) are possibly where  larger secondary movements went.  Ht 35 drops off as it reaches Ukraine and East-Central Europe.  Is this where Ht 15 (L51, L11, P312) possibly emerge?
« Last Edit: April 29, 2010, 06:40:13 PM by MHammers » Logged

Ydna: R1b-Z253**


Mtdna: T

NealtheRed
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 930


« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2010, 09:53:06 AM »

I think I saw someone correlate R1b in the Caucasus/Pontic Steppe to the Maikop Culture - of which I know little about.
Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



MHammers
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 347


« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2010, 10:56:36 AM »

Yes, the Maikop/Yamnaya hypothesis suggested by JeanM and others seems plausible to explain how a large chunk of R1b1b2 arrived in Europe.  Of course, there is an R1b1 and M269* presence along the Mediterranean and north Africa, so there might have been an earlier neolithic? expansion of R1b.  Just not the one where the majority of R1b (P312+, U106+) descend from.

Maikop culture started around 3900 BC in the north Caucasus and was more connected to the steppe cultures at first.  However, they also were important to early bronze working, wool products, and opening trade with northern Mesopotamia.  This is probably the link that brought r1b (and wheeled vehicles) to Russia.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2010, 11:08:17 AM by MHammers » Logged

Ydna: R1b-Z253**


Mtdna: T

NealtheRed
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 930


« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2010, 01:34:06 PM »

The question to consider is did R1b1b2 bring an Indo-European language to the steppe, or did R1b1b2 learn it from the R1a already there?

Or did both R1b1b2 and R1a develop Indo-European together?
« Last Edit: April 30, 2010, 01:35:13 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2964


WWW
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2010, 01:51:45 PM »

The question to consider is did R1b1b2 bring an Indo-European language to the steppe, or did R1b1b2 learn it from the R1a already there?

Or did both R1b1b2 and R1a develop Indo-European together?
I don't know if we can ever figure that out.  We can't agreement that R1b has an association with the spread of IE languages in the first place.

We can say there was the first R1a guy who probably spoke the same language as his R1* father.  Likewise there was the first R1b guy who probably spoke what his R1* father spoke.  Both situations probably happened in Central or SW Asia.  That really narrows it down.. LOL.
Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
NealtheRed
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 930


« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2010, 02:10:31 PM »

I know! But what's odd is that Centum languages are associated with R1b, where R1a is hardly found.

The converse is that Satem languages are overwhelmingly R1a, with the exception os some pockets (i.e. the Talysh).

Is that a fair comparison though?
Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



MHammers
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 347


« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2010, 03:29:29 PM »

I know! But what's odd is that Centum languages are associated with R1b, where R1a is hardly found.

The converse is that Satem languages are overwhelmingly R1a, with the exception os some pockets (i.e. the Talysh).

Is that a fair comparison though?

Also, Tocharian is closely related to the Italo-Celtic branch.  The Tocharians left south Russia about 3700 BC which would have made them contemporaries with Maikop.  Another connection is textiles, in the book The Mummies of Urumchi the author notes there was a very similiar method used in making wool garments between the Tarim Basin people and the Hallstatt era Celts. 
Logged

Ydna: R1b-Z253**


Mtdna: T

NealtheRed
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 930


« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2010, 03:43:37 PM »

I believe some DNA was taken from the Tarim Basin mummies. I think they were R1a.

But that is odd considering Celtic culture was (probably) mostly R1b. R1a is scant to non-existent in Halstatt, right?
« Last Edit: April 30, 2010, 03:46:58 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



MHammers
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 347


« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2010, 04:27:58 PM »

I believe some DNA was taken from the Tarim Basin mummies. I think they were R1a.

But that is odd considering Celtic culture was (probably) mostly R1b. R1a is scant to non-existent in Halstatt, right?

R1a shows up considerably in that area among today's people and in other  aDna.  I'm not sure about the ydna of the mummies themselves.  R1b and J2 is out there in some Uyghurs and Mongolians, but in much smaller frequencies.  No ydna so far, from actual Hallstatt remains, but I think R1b would be much more frequent than R1a there.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2010, 04:29:00 PM by MHammers » Logged

Ydna: R1b-Z253**


Mtdna: T

NealtheRed
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 930


« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2010, 05:17:26 PM »

That is true. I have noticed R1b that far east.

And maybe it's not an anomaly.
Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



polako
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 57


« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2010, 08:38:11 PM »

^ Those seven mummies from the Tarim basin that came back R1a were probably related to the Afanasievo culture, and so weren't necessarily typical Tocharians. At least, that's what the guys who tested the mummies speculate...

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7007/8/15/abstract

But anyway, I don't really see why the Tocharians should be linked to the Celts of Europe. The evidence is circumstantial.

Also, it's a mystery why R1b isn't showing up in any purportedly early Indo-European skeletal remains from the key sites, all the way from Germany to western China. The most likely explanation is that R1b isn't linked very strongly to the Indo-European expansions. But I suppose time will tell.
Logged
GoldenHind
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 731


« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2010, 08:41:38 PM »

Yes, the Maikop/Yamnaya hypothesis suggested by JeanM and others seems plausible to explain how a large chunk of R1b1b2 arrived in Europe.  Of course, there is an R1b1 and M269* presence along the Mediterranean and north Africa, so there might have been an earlier neolithic? expansion of R1b.  Just not the one where the majority of R1b (P312+, U106+) descend from.

Maikop culture started around 3900 BC in the north Caucasus and was more connected to the steppe cultures at first.  However, they also were important to early bronze working, wool products, and opening trade with northern Mesopotamia.  This is probably the link that brought r1b (and wheeled vehicles) to Russia.
I mentioned elsewhere on this forum the recent study of minority populations in Iran. In the IE speaking South Talysh, located in northwest Iran near the southwest corner of the Caspian Sea, 8 out 18 or 44% were predicted M269. According to argiedude, their haplotypes are consistent with ht35 rather than ht15.

I believe this location is not too far from the location of the Maykop civilization.
Logged
polako
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 57


« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2010, 08:53:10 PM »

^ Maikop is in southern Russia across the Caucasus from Iran. 

BTW, I think R1b in Asia is more Turkic than Indo-European. Not sure how that happened exactly, but that's the strongest relationship that I can see there.
Logged
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2010, 09:17:52 PM »

^ Those seven mummies from the Tarim basin that came back R1a were probably related to the Afanasievo culture, and so weren't necessarily typical Tocharians. At least, that's what the guys who tested the mummies speculate...

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7007/8/15/abstract

But anyway, I don't really see why the Tocharians should be linked to the Celts of Europe. The evidence is circumstantial.

Also, it's a mystery why R1b isn't showing up in any purportedly early Indo-European skeletal remains from the key sites, all the way from Germany to western China. The most likely explanation is that R1b isn't linked very strongly to the Indo-European expansions. But I suppose time will tell.

The "key sites" are all in areas lacking in R1b, and most of them are in areas that are strongly R1a. What a surprise that R1a is showing up at those sites!

R1a doesn't show up very strongly among centum IE-speaking peoples, and centum IE is supposed to be the older form.

That doesn't strike you as odd?
Logged

Pages: [1] 2 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


SEO light theme by © Mustang forums. Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC

Page created in 0.096 seconds with 18 queries.