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Author Topic: R1b1* map  (Read 6801 times)
argiedude
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« on: April 25, 2010, 03:26:21 PM »



http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k178/argiedude/R1b1clustermap.gif

I'll see if I can upload the excel file with the haplotypes, later, or tomorrow. I found 280 samples of R1b1* (!).
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2010, 04:21:42 PM »

Unfortunately your map is a few readable on my PC. Which are your explications and conclusions?
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Maliclavelli


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argiedude
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« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2010, 06:43:49 PM »

That's a quirk of this forum, so I always include the link to the image underneath. Just click it and you'll see the image in full size.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2010, 12:12:30 AM »

Unfortunately is a few readable the link. On "Genealogy-dna" it is better readable, in  fact I saw and stamped your maps from there when you posted also on there.
Anyway I'll see your map or someone will write something about its meaning.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2010, 09:04:52 AM »

What is B2/DYS426=11? A cluster of B or R1b1b2/L23-? How have separated them? If it was R1b1b2/L23- it was the most important, because from it was born the R1b1b2 subclades. Watching your map, it seems that there were two groups: one in Middle East and another in Western Europe. AS I have always said my thinking is that from this was born the Western European R1b1b2 and subclades. I have always asked for the Rozen's SNPs, that I think would have separated a Western European R1b1b2 and a Western Asian one. I have quoted many times the Iranian friend Chitsaz, who has on the Adriano's spreadsheet a SNP nobody of we European has. It could be a private one, but it should be tested for knowing it.
The presence in Sardinia and Corsica of B3 and B4 must be interpreted as the most ancient trace of R1b1*/V88-, then the origin of everything? It could be very good for my theory of the "Out of Italy", as NealtheRed called my theory.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2010, 01:33:37 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2010, 10:03:59 AM »

Have you ascertained that the 3 R1b1*/V88- from Italy in the Cruciani's paper were from Sardinia? And not from Sicily as it could be more likely seen the American (USA) origin of the samples?

And where have gone the Vizachero's theory that R-M18+ was from Lebanon and not from Sardinia? Certainly he didn't know that Lebanese used Sardinian mercenaries from at least the 13th century BC (documented), but I think even before, given the possible origin of Tutankhamun's R1b1b2a1b4.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2010, 03:09:37 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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argiedude
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« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2010, 07:34:33 PM »

What is B2/DYS426=11? A cluster of B or R1b1b2/L23-?

No, definitely not L23- or anything in R1b1b2. It's a mysterious cluster. There are lots of samples of Iberian origin, with great diversity, and it also exists in Ashkenazis and Sephardics, with very low diversity. And there are 2 more samples from Greece. And someone from the Arab Project. A Jewish cluster? Maybe. I don't know what to make of it. I excluded it precisely because of the possibility that it might be Jewish; in other words, on the possibility that it's an "artificial", recent phenomenon, which would hinder more than help in painting a picture of the more ancient diffusion of R1b1*.

And the cluster is now confirmed by SNP-testing as V88+. We now know definitively that all A groups in my map are V88- and all B groups are V88+. The results, in fact, came in just 3 days ago. The very first V88 results of any R1b1* samples, except of course Cruciani's study.

Quote
How have separated them?

There are several STR values that, taken as a whole, leave simply no doubt.


Quote
Watching your map, it seems that there were two groups: one in Middle East and another in Western Europe.

I don't know about that. The frequency of R1b1* in Western Europe is less than 0,1%, but we have tens of thousands of samples from there so I was able to find quite a lot of R1b1* samples. For southeast Europe I had about 3,000 samples, and I found 1 from Albania (Crete, being an island, doesn't count). That's not too far away from the West European results. It did call my attention, but we would really have to obtain 5,000 more samples from southeast Europe to be more sure of wether there's a void of R1b1* in this region. On the other hand, it did call my attention that apparently southeast Europe has a lower rate of R1b1* than West Europe, since we would kind of expect the opposite if R1b1* came in from Anatolia. And already it does seem clear that southeast Europe has a lower rate of R1b1* than Italy, which has 0,3%. It's a 10-fold difference between Italy's rate of 0,3% and southeast Europe's rate of 0,03%. And Italy's R1b1* is very diverse. And the R1b1* samples from Anatolia, all 4 of them, curiously come entirely from the eastern half.

Quote
The presence in Sardinia and Corsica of B3 and B4 must be interpreted as the most ancient trace of R1b1*/V88-, then the origin of everything? It could be very good for my theory of the "Out of Italy", as NealtheRed called my theory.

The B4 group is M18+, and Cruciani found that a Corsican M18+ sample was also V88+, so M18 can't belong to the most ancestral grouping of R1b1 V88-.

The B3 group is M18-, so it could be V88- or V88+. I assigned it to B (V88+) only because they had 385=14/14, which slightly tilts the scale in favor of the cluster belonging to the B group. So B3 is really unknown regarding wether it's in A or B. It could be V88- (group A)... who knows WHEN we'll find out... Do these geneticists talk to each other? If I were Cruciani, I would have called Daniela Contu, who did the study on Sardinia, and ask her if she can provide the Sardinian R1b1* samples for a new study on R1b1*. Then Cruciani would have obtained not 1, but 5 M18+ samples to test, and he also would have acquired this other group (B3), and maybe they would have come out as V88-, and that would certainly be something VERY interesting in trying to understand how R1b1* diffused throught the world...

Have you ascertained that the 3 R1b1*/V88- from Italy in the Cruciani's paper were from Sardinia? And not from Sicily as it could be more likely seen the American (USA) origin of the samples?

Hmmmm, oh boy, I'm gonna have to get back to you on that, I hope not. I don't think so. I think they would've been labeled explicitly if they were from somewhere such as Sardinia, but I'm going to have to check again how it is that I think I know they're from continental Italy.

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And where have gone the Vizachero's theory that R-M18+ was from Lebanon and not from Sardinia?

He's definitely wrong about those Lebanese M18+ samples. In fact, let me check my file (which I'll upload tomorrow, I hope...). Ok, let's see. 2 of them are A2, because they have 388=13, and otherwise fit A2 just fine. And the other is a real weirdo, but it has 438=12, which has almost a perfect track record in separating the sub-Saharan clusters B5, B6, and B7 from the West Asian cluster. And in the Levant, half of the R1b1* samples indeed belong to the sub-Saharan clusters, so that last sample is very likely B5, and the rest of its haplotype doesn't contradict such a possibility. Zalloua supposedly found 3 R1b1* M18+ samples, but NO other type of R1b1* sample. He must have mislabeled his R1b1* samples as R1b1* M18+. For what it's worth, it would be much more preferable for vineviz's argument that I'm right and that these samples are A2 and B5.

Quote
Certainly he didn't know that Lebanese used Sardinian mercenaries from at least the 13th century BC (documented), but I think even before, given the possible origin of Tutankhamun's R1b1b2a1b5.

I don't think there's a chance in hell that's possible, given the total lack of other typical Sardinian lineages which are 10 times more common in Sardinia than R1b1* M18+.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2010, 12:19:09 AM »

I thank you for your detailed and deep answer. As you know I wrote to Contu but she didn't answer  me.

Yes, probably the Sardinian mercenaries weren't in Middle East before the 13th century BC, then no influence on Tut's haplogroup, who probably derives from a man of the 14th or 15th century. But if he is really R1b1b2a1b4, this haplogroup is very diffused in Italy and in Sardinia, and could be from there, linked with Italo-Celts.

In your map it is very interesting the expansion of hg. A2 from Italy to Croatia across the Adriatic. Can we hypothesize that it could be a residual of the North Adriatic emerged during Late Paleolithic/Mesolithic or Younger Dryas?
« Last Edit: May 06, 2010, 01:17:43 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2010, 01:15:07 PM »

About the recent paper (Population structure in Hispanics (Bryc et al. 2010)) I posted these letters on "Dienekes blog":


Apart the grossness to think that hg.J is "only" from Middle East etc. (we have documented that there were J1 and J2 in Europe from thousands of years), these results are very interesting: the R-M269 ones, above all from Hiberia, lacks once more the most ancient haplotypes, as I have said many times. There is in the sample only one R-P25, from Puerto Rico,clade: 16,12-14,14,14-30,23,11,13,13,12,11,15,15(-4).

This R-P25 matches a Puertorican and is close to an Hispano-American from Illinois (US) who had DYS385=11-14. Very interesting.

Put on Ysearch from SMGF Del Toro (PP26T). He matches all the other R1b1*-A2. They have the same ancestor and are rooted in Puerto Rico.


Perhaps a new thread is better for this argument.

The Puertorican haplotype (R1b1*/A2) must be compared with an Italian (Toniolo: VKX5N) and an Iranian Anonymous (UATKF).
This cluster probably generated R1b1b2. As the Argiedude's map on R1b1* has demonstrated, R1b1*A2 (probably V88-) has found in Spain, in Italy and in Iran.

Having my PC out for some functions, I invite Argiedude to do a spreadsheet of R1b1*. He can find, as usual, many haplotypes I put on Ysearch from SMGF.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2010, 01:20:39 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2010, 01:49:28 PM »

What do you think, Argiedude? If we compare Merante (QXGKN), Prowting (JUDZ8), Donato (796ME) and Ferrero (FMTPA), the first three from Calabria and the fourth from Piedmont, they have a MRCA between 1,000 and 1,200 YBP.
If we add Jlelati (G5CCP) from Lebanon they have a MRCA between 1,350 and 1,620 YBP.
If we add Thiel (8334H), probably from Switzerland (Rhaetia), we have a MRCA between 1,550 and 1,860 YBP.
Do you think it is more likely that this cluster is from Italy or from Middle East?
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2010, 12:04:23 AM »

What do you think, Argiedude? If we compare Merante (QXGKN), Prowting (JUDZ8), Donato (796ME) and Ferrero (FMTPA), the first three from Calabria and the fourth from Piedmont, they have a MRCA between 1,000 and 1,200 YBP.
If we add Jlelati (G5CCP) from Lebanon they have a MRCA between 1,350 and 1620 YBP.
If we add Thiel (8334H), probably from Switzerland (Rhaetia), we have a MRCA between 1550 and 1860 YBP.
Do you think it is more likely that this cluster is from Italy or from Middle East?

I am seeing that there is another Italian who has YCAII=17-23: Urso from Mesoraca, Calabria (Ysearch VU772). Unfortunately he hasn't updated his results.

Now he has done after a post of mine.

Comparing Urso with the other Calabrians (Merante, Prowting and Donato) and the Piedmontese Ferrero, who are closely related, they have a MRCA about 2800 YBP. This is for an Italian origin of this clade of R1b1b2*.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2010, 09:56:04 PM »

I am seeing that there is another Italian who has YCAII=17-23: Urso from Mesoraca, Calabria (Ysearch VU772). Unfortunately he hasn't updated his results.

I am seeing now that there is another guy in the ht35 project with YCAII=17-23: Canton, Ysearch R5PM5. His real surname is Catougno (Cotugno), from Naples. Then another Italian, and these values are more and more overall in Italy.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2010, 03:12:14 AM »

In the new updated Kerchner's spreadsheet of R1b haplogroup there are only three YCAII=17-23.
65964 is Merante and N82972 is Canton (Cotugno). I don't understand why there aren't the other Italians.

112459 is a descendant of a Nathaniel Thrift, I can presume of English descent, but he is R1b1b2-something, certainly not R1b1b2* (L23-), to demonstrate how rare is YCAIIa=17 among R1b haplogroup.



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Maliclavelli


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argiedude
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« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2010, 06:33:16 PM »

I am seeing now that there is another guy in the ht35 project with YCAII=17-23: Canton, Ysearch R5PM5. His real surname is Catougno (Cotugno), from Naples. Then another Italian, and these values are more and more overall in Italy.

Very nice! Do we know yet of anyone outside Italy that has this haplotype? (426=11 and YCAII=17/23)
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« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2010, 02:13:16 AM »

I know the unique Jlelati from Lebanon, you signaled in the past. The YCAII=17-23 from R1b1b2something (xR1b1b2*) are very rare, probably not more than 0,1% and they are a rare mutation from YCAIIa=18 from 19 which is more diffused, but the mutation from 18 to 17 remains very very rare. If you remember in a past discussion I proposed that the modal of R1b1* from which derived R1b1b2* was YCAII= 18-23 and not 19-23 as many are thinking. Also this would be a relics.

There are also Thiel (and probably Tarnuzzer) from the Rhaetian region I spoke about deeply in another thread.

These are the Ysearch ID:
R5PM5 Canton  (Cotugno) Italy
796ME Donato (Italy)
FMTPA Ferrero (Italy)
G5CCP Jlelati (Lebanon)
JUDZ8 Prowting (Micieli) Italy
QXGKN Merante (Italy)
VU772 Urso (Italy)
8334H Thiel (Switzerland)
UY5NN Tarnuzzer (Switzerland) (?)

Interesting are DYS19=16 and DYS438=10 of Canton (Cotugno) and also DYS390=26 of Thiel to demonstrate the ancientness of the haplotype.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2010, 04:20:04 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2010, 12:50:58 AM »

Perhaps it would be interesting to SNP test this Rooseboom de Vries from SMGF (now Ysearch G7Q8J), but as you know it isn't possible to contact anyone from this site.

He has YCAII=17-23 and very interesting values, which would be interpreted in very different way by the haplogroup he belongs to.

In Netherlands there is a famous Daniel Rooseboom de Vries, probably linked to this Y. If someone can contact him ...
« Last Edit: August 19, 2010, 10:47:28 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2010, 03:38:29 PM »

In the SMGF database there are 66 YCAII=17-23 (0,190%). Of course not all belong to Hg. R1b1b2. But to investigate how many belong to R1b1b2* (with DYS426=11 or  with a mutated 12) or to other subclades, beyond this Dutch, other YCAII=17-23s should be investigated, probably belonging  to subclades of R1b1b2*, but if someone was R1b1b2*, it would shed new light on the path of this haplogroup in Europe.

See on SMGF Mills, Richardson, Henderson, Butikofer (Bernlochner), Montague, Dean, Weldy, Buchanan, Palmer.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2010, 10:48:52 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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boomsjakie
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« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2010, 11:06:54 AM »

strange .....i am the person you aretakling about ....send me a email if you like ...since i dont get what this is about

boomsjakie@hotmail.com
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2010, 02:06:30 PM »

Dear Daniel,
there is a man tested by SMGF, whose ancestor is Antonius Benedictus ROOSEBOOM-DEVRIES b. 9 Jul 1881 Hourlem, South Holland, Netherlands. I put his results on Ysearch (ID: G7Q8J). I don’t know if this surname is diffused in Netherlands or if the line is unique. Perhaps you know if this Antonius Benedictus is an ancestor of yours or if anyway you belong to the same family.
I have been interested on him because I was searching for a clade of R1b1b2* with DYS YCAII=17-23. The question is that these values could belong to this clade or to another of haplogroup R. As we cannot contact the men tested by SMGF, because they hide for privacy their names except those of the ancestors born before 1900, if you belong to the same family and then get the same YDNA, you could test  yourself for some SNPs to ascertain your haplogroup. The test has a cost and if you don't want to spend money but are interested on this test, I could promote a subscription to fund your test, creating a project at FTDNA. Your test could answer to a problem regarding haplogroup R1b1b2*: this clade is above all from Italy, but if you belong to it, having some different values, we could reconstruct the pathway of this haplogroup and answer to some important question about its origin and diffusion all over Europe.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 02:56:09 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

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