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GoldenHind
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« on: April 20, 2010, 08:41:50 PM »

Some interesting new information on R1b1b2 (M269) has been posted on another forum. 259 men from six minority groups from various locations in Iran were tested for 17 STRs. Argiedude then calculated the probable haplogroups from the results. Of possible interest to members of this forum is a peak of 44.4% R1b-M269 among the South Talysh minority of northwest Iran, not far from the western coast of the Caspian Sea and located to the east of Armenia. Apparently the South Talysh speak an IE language. This contrasts with a low of 2.2% of R1b-M269 among Arabs from southwest Iran.
According to argiedude they appear to be all or nearly all ht35.
Since he is a member of this forum, perhaps he might wish to add something to this brief mention for those who avoid the other forum.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2010, 11:11:59 PM »

I did a quick search of the Talysh on Wikipedia (I know, not very resourceful lol), and they are originally from Azerbaijan? That is right on the west bank of the Caspian Sea.

Indo-Iranian speakers too.
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« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2010, 05:26:49 AM »

Dear GoldenHind, Argiedude knows very well that I dislike "forums-dna" after I was banned and don't frequent, and will never do, that forum. If he wants I read his posts, he knows how to do.  Perhaps he doesn't want.
But we know very well the Iranian R1b1b2a. We have our friend Chitsatz on the Adriano's spreadsheet and he was very kind to post his results soon by my invitation. He has a SNP nobody of us Western Europeans (Italians) have. Probably Eastern R1b1b2a-s have nothing to do with Western European subclades (I am still waiting for the Rozen's SNPs, that I think will demonstrate definitely this).
It is now a quarrel among Italians: me, Vizachero, Argiedude and also NealtheRed has an Italian mother.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2010, 05:30:16 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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vineviz
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« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2010, 08:20:10 AM »

Of possible interest to members of this forum is a peak of 44.4% R1b-M269 among the South Talysh minority of northwest Iran, not far from the western coast of the Caspian Sea and located to the east of Armenia. Apparently the South Talysh speak an IE language. This contrasts with a low of 2.2% of R1b-M269 among Arabs from southwest Iran.
Also worth noting is that the overall variance of this sample of R-M269 men is somewhat lower than samples from Anatolia and the Levant.  It would appear that the most likely origin point for R-M269 is west of Iran and east of the Balkans.

VV
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2010, 01:33:42 PM »

Dear GoldenHind, Argiedude knows very well that I dislike "forums-dna" after I was banned and don't frequent, and will never do, that forum. If he wants I read his posts, he knows how to do.  Perhaps he doesn't want.
But we know very well the Iranian R1b1b2a. We have our friend Chitsatz on the Adriano's spreadsheet and he was very kind to post his results soon by my invitation. He has a SNP nobody of us Western Europeans (Italians) have. Probably Eastern R1b1b2a-s have nothing to do with Western European subclades (I am still waiting for the Rozen's SNPs, that I think will demonstrate definitely this).
It is now a quarrel among Italians: me, Vizachero, Argiedude and also NealtheRed has an Italian mother.

Yep, and there are still Centrellas in Avellino making Greco di Tufo wine. Judging by the HV4 samples in the Malyarchuk study, it looks like my mtDNA is Eastern Mediterranean (Balkans) in origin.

So, now the question is where in-between Anatolia and Iran did R-M269 arise? Vince, what is the variance telling us currently?
« Last Edit: April 21, 2010, 01:36:09 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2010, 02:18:52 PM »

The closest to you are in Germany and the British Isles. Certainly they didn't live there during the LGM and certainly they came from South. Why not  from Italy? Probably your ancestresses lived already in Italy many thousands of years ago.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2010, 03:07:17 PM »

The closest to you are in Germany and the British Isles. Certainly they didn't live there during the LGM and certainly they came from South. Why not  from Italy? Probably your ancestresses lived already in Italy many thousands of years ago.

All I know is that my paternal lineage was in Britain for a LONG time. I am not sure if the data supports an Out of Italia hypothesis, but if it does, kudos to you mi amico.

And my maternal side definitely looks to have come from the East.
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« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2010, 03:48:10 PM »

I thought that "ancestresses" in English is feminine, then nothing to say on your R-L21, I have always said born out of Italy and practically negligible here.

The fact that your mtDNA comes from Balkans isn't sure for me: you match a German and have had a back mutation on 16519, then it can have come from Balkans but also from Italy, and, as your ancestress lived here, I don't understand why I should bet on Balkans rather than Italy. But if you don't like Italy, you can think whichever you want.
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Maliclavelli


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vineviz
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« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2010, 04:35:11 PM »

So, now the question is where in-between Anatolia and Iran did R-M269 arise? Vince, what is the variance telling us currently?

I don't think that variance on its own will get us down to a much smaller area than it already has.  I'd say the Levant, Anatolia, and maybe Iraq are all still reasonable contenders.  We will probably need a large number of full Y sequences from this region to nail it down further - because we'll need the fine SNP resolution - and I'm not holding my breath for that development.

VV
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2010, 04:37:16 PM »

I have a lot of pride being part Italian! I have always been closer to the Italian side of my family, as passionate as we are. All I am observing is the distribution of HV subclades in Europe: HV4 is confined to Eastern Europe. The only other Italian HV4 is from Sicily, near Syracuse.

I am just not sure how the Out of Italy theory will hold, considering ht35 is quite plentiful in Southwest Asia.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2010, 04:40:16 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2010, 04:44:22 PM »

So, now the question is where in-between Anatolia and Iran did R-M269 arise? Vince, what is the variance telling us currently?

I don't think that variance on its own will get us down to a much smaller area than it already has.  I'd say the Levant, Anatolia, and maybe Iraq are all still reasonable contenders.  We will probably need a large number of full Y sequences from this region to nail it down further - because we'll need the fine SNP resolution - and I'm not holding my breath for that development.

VV

Is there a sizable percentage of R-M269 in Arabs?
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vineviz
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« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2010, 05:12:35 PM »

Is there a sizable percentage of R-M269 in Arabs?

Low frequency, but (at least in a pan-Arabic sense) decent haplotype variance.

VV
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2010, 05:57:25 PM »

NealtheRed writes: "I have a lot of pride being part Italian! I have always been closer to the Italian side of my family, as passionate as we are. All I am observing is the distribution of HV subclades in Europe: HV4 is confined to Eastern Europe. The only other Italian HV4 is from Sicily, near Syracuse.

I am just not sure how the Out of Italy theory will hold, considering ht35 is quite plentiful in Southwest Asia".

When I have my PC in whole function, I'll study your case. The fact that there are a HV4 in Sicily is something. As I said, I found the closest to you on SMGF in Germany, then I suppose you have no full match elsewhere. We shall see.
About the Out of Italy, it is certain for mtDNA U5b3 and I think for other mtDNA: I am K1a1b1, my sons from a sicilian mother are K1c1*, and I think that about hg. K Italy has something to say.
Re. YDNA R, Vizachero can say what he wants: from R1b1* to R-L51* Italy is the Queen. East/Levant has only some subclades, but lacks the path. They have no R.L23+/L150-, which makes Vizachero dispair. Anyway Western subclades were born from Italian R-L51*, practically negligible east of Italy. See the Argiedude's map and above all what I wrote some years ago: everything was clearly theorized.
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Maliclavelli


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NealtheRed
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« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2010, 07:19:34 PM »

NealtheRed writes: "I have a lot of pride being part Italian! I have always been closer to the Italian side of my family, as passionate as we are. All I am observing is the distribution of HV subclades in Europe: HV4 is confined to Eastern Europe. The only other Italian HV4 is from Sicily, near Syracuse.

I am just not sure how the Out of Italy theory will hold, considering ht35 is quite plentiful in Southwest Asia".

When I have my PC in whole function, I'll study your case. The fact that there are a HV4 in Sicily is something. As I said, I found the closest to you on SMGF in Germany, then I suppose you have no full match elsewhere. We shall see.
About the Out of Italy, it is certain for mtDNA U5b3 and I think for other mtDNA: I am K1a1b1, my sons from a sicilian mother are K1c1*, and I think that about hg. K Italy has something to say.
Re. YDNA R, Vizachero can say what he wants: from R1b1* to R-L51* Italy is the Queen. East/Levant has only some subclades, but lacks the path. They have no R.L23+/L150-, which makes Vizachero dispair. Anyway Western subclades were born from Italian R-L51*, practically negligible east of Italy. See the Argiedude's map and above all what I wrote some years ago: everything was clearly theorized.

If you are referring to the HV4 in Northern Germany, that easily could have come from Eastern Europe. Besides that, the other HV4s are in Southern Russia, Poland, and then the Sicilian and I.

Ok, but how can you explain ht35 in places like Iran? Do you think they travelled east from Italy? It just makes sense that as you go east, R-M269 gets older.
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« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2010, 12:16:05 AM »

We can think to a distribution of R-M269 in a large zone, from Italy to Caucasus, and then each of these groups generated subclades: the Italian one all the Western ones, the Eastern ones theirs. Anyway I don't agree with Vizachero and the others on the times: I have always thought to at least the Younger Dryas. But there is another possibility, that, being R1b1* above all in Italy (3 out of 5 in Italy in the Cruciani's paper), that the eastern ones are due to a migration to east from Italy after the Younger Dryas like the demonstrated migration of mtDna U5b3. It is clearly that an answer to this will be able to come only from the aDNA. The variance isn't decisive, anyway in the Argiedude's calculation Italy and Asia Minor had pretty the same.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2010, 09:19:13 AM »

"Another U5b subcluster, U5b3, has its most likely
homeland in the Italian Peninsula, from where it expanded in the
Holocene along the Mediterranean coasts. Hence, in general
one may conclude that an initial diversification of U5b occurred in
southern and central Europe, followed by the spread of a
particular U5b subclusters into eastern Europe.
Subhaplogroup U5a appears to be younger than U5b, and its
two subclusters, U5a1 and U5a2, expanded soon after the LGM.
Subcluster U5a2 is relatively frequent in central and eastern
Europe, but some haplotypes within U5a2b were detected in
Mediterranean populations as well (Italians, Tunisians)" (Boris Malyarchuk et al.,
The Peopling of Europe from Mitochondrial Haplogroup U5 Perspective, in Plos ONE, 2010, p. 2).

The same probably happened to your HV4. Certainly I think to YDNA R1b1b2 and why not to R1a (I signalled the most ancient haplotypes with DYS392=13 in the Rhaetian Region).
« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 09:27:45 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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NealtheRed
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« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2010, 09:36:41 AM »

"Another U5b subcluster, U5b3, has its most likely
homeland in the Italian Peninsula, from where it expanded in the
Holocene along the Mediterranean coasts. Hence, in general
one may conclude that an initial diversification of U5b occurred in
southern and central Europe, followed by the spread of a
particular U5b subclusters into eastern Europe.
Subhaplogroup U5a appears to be younger than U5b, and its
two subclusters, U5a1 and U5a2, expanded soon after the LGM.
Subcluster U5a2 is relatively frequent in central and eastern
Europe, but some haplotypes within U5a2b were detected in
Mediterranean populations as well (Italians, Tunisians)" (Boris Malyarchuk et al.,
The Peopling of Europe from Mitochondrial Haplogroup U5 Perspective, in Plos ONE, 2010, p. 2).

The same probably happened to your HV4. Certainly I think to YDNA R1b1b2 and why not to R1a (I signalled the most ancient haplotypes with DYS392=13 in the Rhaetian Region).

I just finished reading an article from the journal Annals of Human Biology titled "Mitochondrial DNA Variation in Southern Italy", published in December 2009. It found that samples from Sicily, Calabria and Basilicata had higher proportions of "Eastern-type" haplogroups such as HV.

Furthermore, it said that the HV samples from Sicily and Calabria were similar to those found in Crete and Greece, respectively. The Basilicata sample found affinities in the Aegean.

Like I said, HV4 is found mostly in Eastern Europe and the Eastern Mediterranean. Its precursors Pre-HV and R0 are found in the Near East. HV4 belongs to a subclade of HV that did not enter Western Europe. Those clades mutated into H and V.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 09:39:52 AM by NealtheRed » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2010, 12:05:21 PM »

How many years ago this haplogroup entered Italy? There is a little difference if two thousand years ago or ten or twenty.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2010, 12:11:35 PM »

We discussed this paper on "Dienekes blog". This is one of my posts:

"I thank you for this extract, being a fee-payment paper. We should do a deep exam, as:
1) R0a is very ancient in Italy: in Tuscany we have a R0a so ancient that it is different from every other in the world;
2) N1b is so ancient in Italy that I have supposed it is in Italy from at least the Italian refugium of the Younger Dryas and probably the Near Eastern one can having come from here, specifically that diffused among Jews;
3)also M/M1 can be very ancient too in Italy and we are discussing on another thread if African L3 is derived from an Eurasian M;
4) then only a deep exam should answer if these haplogroups are of recent or ancient (very ancient) presence in Italy".

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NealtheRed
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« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2010, 12:18:07 PM »

LOL The point is that HV4 came into Southern Italy relatively recently from the Eastern Mediterranean!! But yes, it doesn't matter where it came from originally, my folks spoke Italian, ate Italian foods, etc, etc. they were Italian!

Sorry about digressing here. Anyway, why does Mac think the Iranian R1b came from Italy, and not Anatolia or Northern Iraq?
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2010, 12:20:32 PM »

We discussed this paper on "Dienekes blog". This is one of my posts:

"I thank you for this extract, being a fee-payment paper. We should do a deep exam, as:
1) R0a is very ancient in Italy: in Tuscany we have a R0a so ancient that it is different from every other in the world;
2) N1b is so ancient in Italy that I have supposed it is in Italy from at least the Italian refugium of the Younger Dryas and probably the Near Eastern one can having come from here, specifically that diffused among Jews;
3)also M/M1 can be very ancient too in Italy and we are discussing on another thread if African L3 is derived from an Eurasian M;
4) then only a deep exam should answer if these haplogroups are of recent or ancient (very ancient) presence in Italy".



Ughhh, I am just making an observation since the majority of the HV4 samples are NOT from Italy! This means flow of HV4 went INTO Italy from the east, not out!
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« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2010, 12:23:54 PM »

You are HV4a and the two samples on Philotree are
EF660939 (Italy)
EU935457 (Egypt)

Have you had a FGS? I am waiting for my results from FTDNA.

Who is Mac?
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Maliclavelli


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NealtheRed
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« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2010, 12:27:24 PM »

You are Mac.

I did a FGS and am HV4, but not HV4a. Hmm, Egypt seems pretty close to the Near East, I think.
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« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2010, 12:32:42 PM »

Why am I Mac?

Is it published your FGS? Is yours that from Italy?

About Egypt mind to Tutankhamun and the reticences of Hawass.

The Tut's R1b1b2a1b5 (probably) isn't a true Egyptian.
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Maliclavelli


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NealtheRed
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« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2010, 12:58:35 PM »

Because it is easier to say your name as "Mac".

If you look on the HV and Subclades Project, I am under the category "Unassigned" (for unbeknownst reasons). The only other two HV4s are from Sicily and Northern Germany. However, in the Poland Project there is one HV4, and in Malyarchuk's dataset there are HV4s in Russia and I think in Lithuania.

My maternal ancestress is Angelina Centrella, of Avellino.
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