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Author Topic: Anglo, Saxon or Jute R-L21?  (Read 2134 times)
Mike Walsh
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« on: April 23, 2010, 10:54:08 PM »

Has anyone hypothesized that there are R-L21 among the Angle, Saxon and Jutes who invaded England in the post-Roman period?  The areas they came from were lower part of the Jutland Peninsula and the adjacent areas of Germany and Holland, right?  If there is R-L21 in Scandinavia, there must be some in the Angle, Saxon, Jute homelands.  Are there "English" clusters of R-L21*?
« Last Edit: April 23, 2010, 10:54:41 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2010, 04:49:56 AM »

 All we have is the project maps.  How does England compare with Denmark and north coastal Germany?  At present the latter areas seem very lacking in L21 compared to England.  Without a proper study it is pretty uncertain but the project maps would not indicate that the Anglo-Saxon homelands have anything like the same sort of L21 levels as England.  Yes the sample is small and yes there are people who simply have not joined the L21 project but these factors also apply to other areas where L21 is much more common.

When it comes to L21 among those with ancient English roots I would think the following are the likely ancient sources worth considering:

1. Ancient Britons-seems to have been very high among the Welsh, Irish and Gauls anyway
2. Normans-there is a lot of L21 in NW France
3. Norwegians vikings. There seems to be a significant amount of L21 on the Norwegian coast.  Although most Viking settlement in England (in contrast to Scotland and Ireland) was Danish, Norwegians did settle in localised areas like NW England and perhaps some in phases of viking dominance in the NE of England.

That all said, there has to be a stepping stone between the L21-rich area that resembles 'Gaul' and the coast of Norway.  It had to have either gotten there by some long marine hop (which I doubt) or by some intermediate L21 source(s) that lie undetected.  One trade link in prehistory that was of importance was the Elbe which linked the Czech area with the Baltic around Denmark.  The main L21 block stretches to about the Czech area so perhaps it made its may that way.  I think the same may have been suggested for U152 reaching Denmark by David Faux.   
 
« Last Edit: April 24, 2010, 04:58:52 AM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
NealtheRed
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« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2010, 08:28:35 AM »

I personally believe there is no reason to think L21 was not amongst the Anglo-Saxons.

There is a lot of L21 in Southern England, and I think a good number could have come from Northern Germany. L21 is common in Scandinavia, no matter which way you want to put it.

We do not find as much L21 in Northern Germany compared to places like France or Britain due to sampling bias, and that contributes to the error. No one expected Norway to pick up so heavily on L21. And I believe Angles settled in Southern Norway as well.

Just because an Irishman is L21+, and closely matches a German who is L21+ does not mean the German is Irish. Some L21 went to Ireland and was Celtic, while other cousins stayed on the continent to become Germanic.

« Last Edit: April 24, 2010, 08:28:49 AM by NealtheRed » Logged

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NealtheRed
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« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2010, 08:52:18 AM »

To reaffirm what I said earlier, I thought it was a HUGE mistake to label these subclades of M269 as Celtic and Germanic.

Marketing ploys, that's it.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2010, 04:04:21 PM »

Yes, I have maintained for some time that at least some portion of L21 in Britain came in the Anglo-Saxons, much to the consternation of those who want to see L21 as exclusively Celtic. I don't think there is sufficient data at this point to say how large L21 was amongst the Germanic immigrants, but my current feeling is that it was probably quite small. I think a somewhat larger amount of L21 is likely to have come in with the Viking age settlements, principally from Norway.

There are at least two archaeologist/historians of the Anglo-Saxons who maintain that the area they came from was much wider than northwest Germany and southern Denmark, and that amongst them were people from the entire northwestern Germanic area, Frisia to Norway. Some items found in the Sutton Hoo burial show a very strong link to Sweden.

Denmark is very poorly represented in the FTDNA projects, even more so than Norway or Sweden. I don't think we have a good idea of what the R1b subclade distribution is there. The Meyres(sp?) study some years ago estimated that slightly over half of the R1b there is U106. If correct, that means that most of the remaining slightly under half are likely composed of P312 and subclades. Yet there are only a handful of Danes in any of the P312 and subclades projects.

I think the U106 Germanic association was more a creation of David Faux and his disciples than a marketing ploy created by the genetic testing companies. It was largely based on the fact that there was a hotspot for the subclade along the North Sea coast. When it became clear that this hotspot didn't extend throughout other Germanic parts of Europe, he produced various fanciful hypotheses in the attempt to explain away these inconvenient facts, but that is another story.

If I were looking for Germanic L21 clusters, I would probably start looking in the L21 in Scandinavia, to see some off modal clusters were present there. If any were found, I would then start looking to see if there were any matches in Britain, and if so, what their distribution is.

Essentially I think this is a question we should keep an open mind on until we get better data.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2010, 04:13:21 PM by GoldenHind » Logged
NealtheRed
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« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2010, 08:34:47 PM »

I agree with you. The data from Southern Scandinavia can only be found in cursory studies from academic journals (such as the Meyers study). I actually prefer these, but the sampling frame from Denmark, Lower Saxony, and Westphalia is pitiful compared to the British one.

L21 is present in the historical Geatish lands - they were related to the Anglo-Saxons, by the way.

My Longacre cousins (Gothenburg, Sweden) are L21+.
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rms2
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« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2010, 08:53:51 PM »

There could have been J1, J2, G2, E1b1b, N and even C3 among the Anglo-Saxons, as well.

But one has to look at the big picture and generalize if he is to say much that is meaningful.

Could there have been Anglo-Saxons who were L21+? Sure. Does it look like one could characterize the L21 in Britain, with few individual exceptions, as Anglo-Saxon? Hardly.

Look at the distribution of L21 in Britain and elsewhere.

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NealtheRed
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« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2010, 11:06:11 PM »

Until we get an equivalent sampling frame from Scandinavia, I'm not gonna make any hypotheses. One would have to do some major disproportionate stratified sampling.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2010, 12:12:02 AM »

I just checked my FTDNA match page and there are at least 8 Dutch L21s in the database now.

There is also one in Greece.
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rms2
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« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2010, 06:45:24 AM »

I just checked my FTDNA match page and there are at least 8 Dutch L21s in the database now.

There is also one in Greece.

I know. It is frustrating that for some reason they don't join the project. I've had FTDNA contact that Greek guy, but he just isn't a joiner, I guess.

Or maybe he isn't interested in subjecting himself to speculation that he is really a clandestine Scot or Irishman.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2010, 10:54:24 AM »

I just checked my FTDNA match page and there are at least 8 Dutch L21s in the database now.

There is also one in Greece.
Any idea where in holland? Most of it to date is south/west of he old Rhine line ( which was well to the east of it's line today).
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2010, 11:26:53 AM »

I just checked my FTDNA match page and there are at least 8 Dutch L21s in the database now.

There is also one in Greece.
Any idea where in holland? Most of it to date is south/west of he old Rhine line ( which was well to the east of it's line today).

I couldn't tell ya. It only says R1b1b2a1b5, then Netherlands (8). Rich already knows about the Greek one then.

I know it's frustrating, but some folks just get their 12 markers done and that's their venture into DNA!
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2010, 11:56:12 AM »

I just checked my FTDNA match page and there are at least 8 Dutch L21s in the database now.

There is also one in Greece.
Any idea where in holland? Most of it to date is south/west of he old Rhine line ( which was well to the east of it's line today).

I couldn't tell ya. It only says R1b1b2a1b5, then Netherlands (8). Rich already knows about the Greek one then.

I know it's frustrating, but some folks just get their 12 markers done and that's their venture into DNA!

I have to say though that that seems an exceptionally high rate of not joining the L21 project among Dutch L21.  Is this impression correct?  Again, the L21=British/Irish hype wouldnt have helped.  I wonder if it would be worth emailing them a copy of the continental L21 map because it looks a lot more continental than it did a year ago.  I think many people who consider themselves indigenous to a country do not want a result that contradicts this self image. 
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rms2
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« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2010, 06:59:56 PM »

I have to say though that that seems an exceptionally high rate of not joining the L21 project among Dutch L21.  Is this impression correct?  Again, the L21=British/Irish hype wouldnt have helped.  I wonder if it would be worth emailing them a copy of the continental L21 map because it looks a lot more continental than it did a year ago.  I think many people who consider themselves indigenous to a country do not want a result that contradicts this self image. 

Yeah, they probably expected to be U106+ and were disappointed by the L21+ result.

I'll email FTDNA again and ask them to contact them. I'll include a link to the R-L21 European Continent Map.

Maybe that will help.

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NealtheRed
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« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2010, 10:12:51 PM »

I have to say though that that seems an exceptionally high rate of not joining the L21 project among Dutch L21.  Is this impression correct?  Again, the L21=British/Irish hype wouldnt have helped.  I wonder if it would be worth emailing them a copy of the continental L21 map because it looks a lot more continental than it did a year ago.  I think many people who consider themselves indigenous to a country do not want a result that contradicts this self image. 

Yeah, they probably expected to be U106+ and were disappointed by the L21+ result.

I'll email FTDNA again and ask them to contact them. I'll include a link to the R-L21 European Continent Map.

Maybe that will help.



I really hope that is not the case. We're late bloomers, I suppose.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2010, 11:21:16 PM »

Part of the reason I started this thread was because I expect news on one subset of the R-L21* 11-13 Combo project.  A researcher has been pouring through the history, family names and stories, etc. related to Scottish Borders area in the 1300's.  Some of the different families (with the similar Y DNA back to the right TMRCA) seem to criss-cross in a location and with surnames that are Saxon or Jute.  I'm surprised to some extent but I really don't know what to expect.  I'll share the information when I get it and as I can understand it.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2010, 08:58:04 AM »

I'm sure some folks in the 11-13 combo could be of Saxon origin.
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