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Mike Walsh
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« on: April 16, 2010, 10:39:54 PM »

I think most are aware of this but just to be sure:  A new SNP downstream of L21+, has apparently been found.  It is labeled P314.2 and is apparently in a stable part of the Y chromosome.  We don't know how widespread it is.

16473    William MacMartin, b.1700, Scotland - JZMAB

The following guys from the R-L21* spreadsheet also look like a possibility for this.

55306    James Keenan, b1778 d1858 Derry, NI - ZE24U
McLaughlin, b.Scotland - WA9NQ
N28007    Patrick Porter, b.1731; d.1806 - BR233
110716    G. Reilly, b. Co. Sligo, Ireland - 66ZM6
?    Sherwood, b.Nottinghamshire, England - BUA82

They all have Ysearch ID's so they can be contacted through the Y search facility.

There is a MacMartin Superfamily modal but I haven't got much detail on it.
http://www.martindna.org/
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2010, 09:24:55 AM »

This should help.  I noticed that P314.2 has been added to the Advanced Order R-L21 downstream SNP test package.   One or two have come in as P314.2-.  Too bad FTDNA didn't include this earlier.  A good 60+ people took the downstream package that have been all negative.  Perhaps one or two would have been P314.2+ had it been included in the package.   If this SNP is restricted to the MacMartin (et al) superfamily cluster then probably all of those downstream package tested folks would have been P314.2-, however, the only way to know is to test a few and see what happens.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2010, 12:57:57 PM »

I heard there is another P314.2+ person.  Not sure who it is though, but it looks like more than a private SNP.

I think most are aware of this but just to be sure:  A new SNP downstream of L21+, has apparently been found.  It is labeled P314.2 and is apparently in a stable part of the Y chromosome.  We don't know how widespread it is.

16473    William MacMartin, b.1700, Scotland - JZMAB

The following guys from the R-L21* spreadsheet also look like a possibility for this.

55306    James Keenan, b1778 d1858 Derry, NI - ZE24U
McLaughlin, b.Scotland - WA9NQ
N28007    Patrick Porter, b.1731; d.1806 - BR233
110716    G. Reilly, b. Co. Sligo, Ireland - 66ZM6
?    Sherwood, b.Nottinghamshire, England - BUA82

They all have Ysearch ID's so they can be contacted through the Y search facility.

There is a MacMartin Superfamily modal but I haven't got much detail on it.
http://www.martindna.org/
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KeithM
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« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2010, 10:05:24 PM »

More people are taking the stand alone P314.2 test and returning positive results. McCarthy shows promise as well as Higgins. Preliminary may be north eastern Ireland, possibly from the Plantation movement from Scotland into Northern Ireland or earlier Dal Riada incursions.




This should help.  I noticed that P314.2 has been added to the Advanced Order R-L21 downstream SNP test package.   One or two have come in as P314.2-.  Too bad FTDNA didn't include this earlier.  A good 60+ people took the downstream package that have been all negative.  Perhaps one or two would have been P314.2+ had it been included in the package.   If this SNP is restricted to the MacMartin (et al) superfamily cluster then probably all of those downstream package tested folks would have been P314.2-, however, the only way to know is to test a few and see what happens.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2010, 10:56:33 AM »

More people are taking the stand alone P314.2 test and returning positive results. McCarthy shows promise as well as Higgins. Preliminary may be north eastern Ireland, possibly from the Plantation movement from Scotland into Northern Ireland or earlier Dal Riada incursions.
This should help.  I noticed that P314.2 has been added to the Advanced Order R-L21 downstream SNP test package.   One or two have come in as P314.2-.  Too bad FTDNA didn't include this earlier.  A good 60+ people took the downstream package that have been all negative.  Perhaps one or two would have been P314.2+ had it been included in the package.   If this SNP is restricted to the MacMartin (et al) superfamily cluster then probably all of those downstream package tested folks would have been P314.2-, however, the only way to know is to test a few and see what happens.

Keith, who are the new P314+ people?  Hopefully they are L21 tested as well and should be in the R-L21 Plus project.

I only see the two P314+
f16473   William MacMartin, b.1700, Scotland   JZMAB,
fN28007   Patrick Porter, b.1731; d.1806    BR233,

There is another anonymous person so I get three in total.

How many do you get and who are they?
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2010, 11:54:21 AM »

More people are taking the stand alone P314.2 test and returning positive results. McCarthy shows promise as well as Higgins. Preliminary may be north eastern Ireland, possibly from the Plantation movement from Scotland into Northern Ireland or earlier Dal Riada incursions.
This should help.  I noticed that P314.2 has been added to the Advanced Order R-L21 downstream SNP test package.   One or two have come in as P314.2-.  Too bad FTDNA didn't include this earlier.  A good 60+ people took the downstream package that have been all negative.  Perhaps one or two would have been P314.2+ had it been included in the package.   If this SNP is restricted to the MacMartin (et al) superfamily cluster then probably all of those downstream package tested folks would have been P314.2-, however, the only way to know is to test a few and see what happens.

Keith, who are the new P314+ people?  Hopefully they are L21 tested as well and should be in the R-L21 Plus project.

I only see the two P314+
f16473   William MacMartin, b.1700, Scotland   JZMAB,
fN28007   Patrick Porter, b.1731; d.1806    BR233,

There is another anonymous person so I get three in total.

How many do you get and who are they?

I've been told this guy is P314+.  He never tested for L21 so he's not in the R-L21 Project.  I could only find him in the O'Shea project.

140951  O'Shea

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/oshea/default.aspx?section=yresults

From the same project, these three guys might fit as well, particularly the first one.
98369
140718
47993


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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2010, 10:33:11 AM »

I think that P314.2+ is a stable marker. 

It has been reported that Thomas Krahn described it in this way - "From the sequence structure it doesn't look like a very unstable marker." Thomas also wrote "reserved P314.1 for hg H2a" and  "We have never observed a P314.1+ sample in our lab".

You have to interpret that a double negative equals a positive.... in other words, Thomas thinks 314.2 it is stable.  It is also not for sure that P314.1+ even exists in haplogroup H2a.

There is also a report of another P314.2+. This one in the Dimond/Diamond project. Lineage #6 in the project fit the STR criteria so I suspect that one of these guys is P314+ confirmed:
158294    Stewart Diamond b. 1752 Derry     R1b1b2
19856    Patrick Dimond b. abt. 1730 Ulster     R1b1b2
88211    John Diamond b. 1750 Derry     R1b1
179656    John Diamond b. 1750 Derry     R1b1b2

If one of the above is identified as P314.2+, my recommendation would be that they all get tested for P314, but I can't honestly tell them I think they should do the full deep clade package - which is against my general recommendation.  What do you think?

The implication is that if P314.2+ is stable then a P314.2+ is a default P312+ L21+ confirmed person as well.
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rms2
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« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2010, 10:37:36 AM »

P314 looks good, but I think I will wait for FTDNA and the YCC to add P314 to their trees before creating a separate category for it on the Y Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project. That way those who are positive will show up as "R1b1b2a1b5something", which will make them easy to spot. Otherwise, I have to scour the pages of every project member to see who is positive and negative for P314.

Honestly, I wish I had waited before creating categories for the other new SNPs, as well. I'm sure there are guys who are positive for them who are still not in those categories. I don't really relish going back and looking through most of the Haplotree pages in the project trying to see who is positive for what.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2010, 12:00:44 PM »

The draft version now Lists 314.2 and a new L302.

R1b1b2a1b5 (ISOGG: R1b1b2a1a2f) L21
R1b1b2a1b5a (ISOGG: R1b1b2a1a2f1) M37
R1b1b2a1b5b (ISOGG: R1b1b2a1a2f2) M222
R1b1b2a1b5c (ISOGG: R1b1b2a1b6c) P66_1, P66_2, P66_3

recent additions:
  (ISOGG: R (Private SNPs))  L9, L10
    L96
    L130
    L144, L195
    L159.2
    L192.1
    L193
    L69.4
    L226
    P314.2
    L302
 
 
 

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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
KeithM
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« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2010, 12:57:18 PM »

The following surnames have tested positive for the P314.2 SNP.

Martin/MacMartin
Keenan/Keane/Keene
Diamond 
Hackett 
Higgins/O'Higgins
Kelly
McCarthy
Newman   
Ogan
O'Shea
Porter
Reilly/O'Reilly
Campbell
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KeithM
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« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2010, 12:59:03 PM »

The following surnames have tested positive for the P314.2 SNP. I encourage those within the Dal Riada kinship group to test for this with FTDNA.

Martin/MacMartin
Keenan/Keane/Keene
Diamond 
Hackett 
Higgins/O'Higgins
Kelly
McCarthy
Newman   
Ogan?Hogan
O'Shea
Porter
Reilly/O'Reilly
Campbell
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kirkmchugh
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« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2011, 11:19:47 AM »

Hi,

I just completed the deep clade analysis and found out that I am P314.2 positive. In addition, my DYS390=23, DYS388=13, DYS389-2=28, DYS406S1=11 and DYS460=10. Seems that I match with the MacMartin Superfamily pretty well.

My ancestor, John McHugh, came to America around 1810, landing in Maryland. My grandfather and great-grandfather were very strict in referring to our family heritage as "Scotch-Irish", not Irish.

I guess the surname "McHugh" can be added to the list. Thanks.

Kirk McHugh
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2011, 12:01:04 PM »

Hi,

I just completed the deep clade analysis and found out that I am P314.2 positive. In addition, my DYS390=23, DYS388=13, DYS389-2=28, DYS406S1=11 and DYS460=10. Seems that I match with the MacMartin Superfamily pretty well.

My ancestor, John McHugh, came to America around 1810, landing in Maryland. My grandfather and great-grandfather were very strict in referring to our family heritage as "Scotch-Irish", not Irish.

I guess the surname "McHugh" can be added to the list. Thanks.

Kirk McHugh
Hi, Kirk.

Please join the R-L21 11-13 Combo project at

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L21-1113Combo/default.aspx?section=yresults

We have several P314.2+ people in the project and I think we've just made a break through.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2011, 01:21:47 PM »

The L21 WTY project admin just posted on the P314.2 Yahoo forum that a P314.2+ person is DF21+. I think we need additional confirmation, but this makes DF21 really look old since it already has multiple layers with DF25 and DF5 along with 425=null 511=9 Clan Colla guys. P314.2 looked to be old in the first place.

Quote from: KirstenS
I learned this morning that Keith has tested positive for DF21. This is exciting news, because DF21 is upstream of P314.2, and this gives us information about the more ancient connections between the R-P314.2 line and other DF21+ lines within R-L21. I would like to see a DF21 test result for one more member of the cluster just to confirm the DF21+ status of R-P314.2. Would one of you be willing to order this test and then post here so that we know that another representative of the group is testing?

You can see most of the P314.2 folks under the "P" groups in the R-L21 11-13 Combo project at  http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L21-1113Combo/default.aspx?section=yresults
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rms2
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« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2011, 02:00:50 PM »

I posted about that earlier this morning over on that thread about DF21. I sent David Reynolds (admin of the R-DF21 Project) an email about it. He wrote back and told me he has discussed it with Thomas Krahn. Apparently it's solid. It looks like P314.2 really is downstream of DF21.

Will wonders never cease?
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« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2011, 03:48:22 PM »

By the way, this news gives DF21 two more continental results, since Maland of Norway and Conrardy of Luxembourg are both P314.2+. (Those are ancestral surnames.)
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2012, 12:21:33 AM »

An interesting fellow just joined the L21 project. He doesn't appear to have any SNP testing but his haplotype should be of great interest to P314.2+ folks.

f208773 Frederick Reith, b.1836, Hanover, Lower Saxony, Germany

He's kind of a "semi-fit" with the P314.2 Sullivan's, which actually just makes it all the more interesting as the relationship may be old.

Reith does have the all important and very slow 388=13 mutation. He actually matches with some P314.2+ folks on these:
388=13 406s1=11 447=26 390=23 439=13
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« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2012, 05:40:03 PM »

There is at least one more guy with a German sounding name in this group that I am aware of.  Add that to the Luxemburg/Norman one and a Norwegian and its very interesting.  In the British Isles its very much a clade of the west - especially western half of Ireland and the west Highlands/islands of Scotland.  I also heard there was a Spanish guy who part-fitted the cluster but was negative for the SNP.  So, for a small clade there are some interesting but very scattered continental connections.
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« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2012, 09:17:08 PM »

An interesting fellow just joined the L21 project. He doesn't appear to have any SNP testing but his haplotype should be of great interest to P314.2+ folks.

f208773 Frederick Reith, b.1836, Hanover, Lower Saxony, Germany

He's kind of a "semi-fit" with the P314.2 Sullivan's, which actually just makes it all the more interesting as the relationship may be old.

Reith does have the all important and very slow 388=13 mutation. He actually matches with some P314.2+ folks on these:
388=13 406s1=11 447=26 390=23 439=13


He just joined the R-L21 Plus Project. He tested L21+ with 23andMe. His entry is in the Germany category.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2012, 09:17:42 PM by rms2 » Logged

Mike Walsh
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« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2012, 12:55:38 AM »

An interesting fellow just joined the L21 project. He doesn't appear to have any SNP testing but his haplotype should be of great interest to P314.2+ folks.

f208773 Frederick Reith, b.1836, Hanover, Lower Saxony, Germany

He's kind of a "semi-fit" with the P314.2 Sullivan's, which actually just makes it all the more interesting as the relationship may be old.

Reith does have the all important and very slow 388=13 mutation. He actually matches with some P314.2+ folks on these:
388=13 406s1=11 447=26 390=23 439=13


He just joined the R-L21 Plus Project. He tested L21+ with 23andMe. His entry is in the Germany category.

Good catch, Rich. It's not lost on me that he is one of our few L21's from the north half of Germany.  Although not close GD wise, there are some folks in the P314.2 group from Benelux.
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themacmartin
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« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2012, 12:14:54 AM »

The northern half of Germany has a lot of Danish influence. This throws us back into the possibility of recombination. The 22 at 390 and 13 at 388 are consistent with I1 and I2 haplogroups. How can the signature be Irish and Scandinavian at the same time?
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MauriceRivera
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« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2012, 07:41:14 AM »

What is the function of SNP downstream of L21+? How it work?
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OConnor
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« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2012, 07:57:56 AM »

The downstream snp's are branches off of R-L21. Just like the branches of a tree.

We are hoping to find out which twig we belong to near the end of these branches.
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2012, 01:37:40 PM »

So, what is the estimated age of p314.2 now?  How does it compare to DF21 as a whole?  I would like to know the age of p314.2 because its thin, very farflung and maritime looking distribution means it must have been spread in boats. 
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2012, 06:31:46 PM »

Using my beta AK adjusted mutation counting and my Revised mutation rates (shown as MR#), I have 24-67marker guys age as 1,800 at 25years per generation:

AKGen: 152   Rgen: 72
AK25Age: 3800   R25Age: 1800
M#: 383                  R30Age: 2160
MR%: 0.23818407960199   R35Age: 2520
AK=Anatole Klyosov   

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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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