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Author Topic: P312* and L21- Some Observations on Distribution  (Read 4445 times)
GoldenHind
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« Reply #50 on: April 28, 2010, 09:08:52 PM »

Some Corded-ware variants were in Finland and Sweden, Battle-Axe culture I think. Proto-Germanic may have evolved in Corded-ware territory (maybe Poland or Belarus?).  It was brought there by interaction with steppe people.  Germanic being a Centum branch spread north and west into today's Germanic countries.

As to R1a and Indo-Iranian, there is a series of subsequent cultures stemming from CW and leading up to Sintashta/Andronovo around the southern Urals.  All eastern-focused carrying the Satem branch and probably lots of R1a.
A few comments:

I am reasonably certain the Battle Axe culture also reached Denmark.

I believe Germanic is generally thought to have evolved in Scandinavia during what is called the Nordic Bronze Age.

Although I have seen differing statistics, they seem to agree that R1a is most common in Scandinavia in Norway, with Sweden not far behind, but fairly rare in Denmark. R1b is much more common in Denmark than in Sweden or Norway, although Norway seems to have a little more than Sweden.

Trying to reconcile all this might lead to some interesting speculation.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #51 on: April 28, 2010, 09:22:09 PM »

Some Corded-ware variants were in Finland and Sweden, Battle-Axe culture I think. Proto-Germanic may have evolved in Corded-ware territory (maybe Poland or Belarus?).  It was brought there by interaction with steppe people.  Germanic being a Centum branch spread north and west into today's Germanic countries.

As to R1a and Indo-Iranian, there is a series of subsequent cultures stemming from CW and leading up to Sintashta/Andronovo around the southern Urals.  All eastern-focused carrying the Satem branch and probably lots of R1a.
A few comments:

I am reasonably certain the Battle Axe culture also reached Denmark.

I believe Germanic is generally thought to have evolved in Scandinavia during what is called the Nordic Bronze Age.

Although I have seen differing statistics, they seem to agree that R1a is most common in Scandinavia in Norway, with Sweden not far behind, but fairly rare in Denmark. R1b is much more common in Denmark than in Sweden or Norway, although Norway seems to have a little more than Sweden.

Trying to reconcile all this might lead to some interesting speculation.

See, this is why it is interesting. R1a is over-shadowed by R1b and I in all three countries, right? I am not too sure, so let me know if I am wrong.

Would R1b be the latecomer to Scandinavia?
« Last Edit: April 28, 2010, 09:22:25 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



GoldenHind
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« Reply #52 on: April 28, 2010, 09:45:20 PM »



See, this is why it is interesting. R1a is over-shadowed by R1b and I in all three countries, right? I am not too sure, so let me know if I am wrong.

Would R1b be the latecomer to Scandinavia?

No, that isn't correct. R1a and R1b are very roughly equal portions in Sweden and Norway, but there is hardly any R1a in Denmark, which has a much greater amount of R1b than either of the other two countries. Denmark tends to look more like Germany in its percentage of R1a and R1b than the other two.

As to who got there first, I could make an argument either way.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2010, 09:46:14 PM by GoldenHind » Logged
GoldenHind
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« Reply #53 on: April 28, 2010, 09:47:48 PM »



See, this is why it is interesting. R1a is over-shadowed by R1b and I in all three countries, right? I am not too sure, so let me know if I am wrong.

Would R1b be the latecomer to Scandinavia?

No, that isn't correct. R1a and R1b are very roughly equal portions in Sweden and Norway, but there is hardly any R1a in Denmark, which has a much greater amount of R1b than either of the other two countries. Denmark tends to look more like Germany in its percentage of R1a and R1b than the other two.

As to who got there first, I could make an argument either way.

EDIT: I am having a lot of trouble trying to work out which quote marks to delete and which to leave.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2010, 09:50:36 PM by GoldenHind » Logged
MHammers
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« Reply #54 on: April 29, 2010, 12:00:13 AM »

Is most of Scandinavian R1b P312* or U106?  I know there are about 20 or so L21's. 
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rms2
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« Reply #55 on: April 29, 2010, 08:13:00 AM »

Is most of Scandinavian R1b P312* or U106?  I know there are about 20 or so L21's. 

So far there is more L21 than R-P312* (I think), but it's close, and it differs by country.
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MHammers
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« Reply #56 on: April 29, 2010, 11:44:16 AM »

Is most of Scandinavian R1b P312* or U106?  I know there are about 20 or so L21's.  

So far there is more L21 than R-P312* (I think), but it's close, and it differs by country.

Interesting, this suggests that R1b is a late-comer to Scandinavia given that P312 and U106 were discovered earlier.  However, the number of members in any of these  groups is probably still too low to be sure.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2010, 11:45:59 AM by MHammers » Logged

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GoldenHind
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« Reply #57 on: April 29, 2010, 07:14:40 PM »

Is most of Scandinavian R1b P312* or U106?  I know there are about 20 or so L21's. 
I assume you mean all P312 rather than just P312*. It is an interesting question, and I don't think anyone really knows. My best guess is that it is very roughly 50/50 between P312 and U106, although, as Rich says, it varies by country.

As for P312* vs. L21, the numbers are both too close and too few to make any predictions. My best guess is that L21 is more common in Norway and P312* more common in Sweden. Denmark is anybody's guess.
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