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Author Topic: P312* and L21- Some Observations on Distribution  (Read 4311 times)
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #25 on: April 18, 2010, 06:02:18 PM »

no. Archaeology identifies no migration from Norway to Britain prior to the Viking Age. 
Were there any migrations from Britain to Scandinavia prior to the Viking Age?
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #26 on: April 18, 2010, 07:44:57 PM »

no. Archaeology identifies no migration from Norway to Britain prior to the Viking Age.  
Were there any migrations from Britain to Scandinavia prior to the Viking Age?


I certainly am not aware of any prehistoric cultural patterns suggestive of a migration to Scandinavia.  From what I know there were no major connections between Britain and Norway in prehistoric times.  It seems to have not happened until the Germanic migration period. Denmark is a less easy to be definitive about.  There were certainly links between Denmark and SE England across Doggerland in the Mesolithic.  I think there was at least trade contact in the Neolithic and Bronze Ages. However, there was no really obvious cross North Sea cultures in those periods.  

Other than the trade in precious metals etc the closest cultural affinities of the British Isles are between the two islands rather than anywhere on the continent during a hell of a lot of the Neolithic and Bronze Age i.e. there was strong insularity.  There are only limited moments of prehistory where any continental links beyond metalwork trade can be seen.   That is why people focus on periods like the start of the Neolithic and the beaker period when looking for migrations.  

So, the presence of L21 seems unlikely to be down to prehistoric isles to Norway movements unless very small archaeologically invisible groups of traders made a very big impact. My own suspicion (total guess) is that the Norwegian L21 got there from a continental source in prehistoric times.     
« Last Edit: April 18, 2010, 07:54:34 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
GoldenHind
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« Reply #27 on: April 18, 2010, 08:41:43 PM »


My own suspicion (total guess) is that the Norwegian L21 got there from a continental source in prehistoric times.     

Mine too, although I think we could elevate it from a total guess to an educated guess.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #28 on: April 18, 2010, 09:00:04 PM »

Here is another observation about comparing P312* to L21.

A quick look a the continental L21 map Rich maintains shows it has a limited geographic distribution. If one were to draw a line running northeasterly from Biarritz to Vilnius in Latvia, virtually all L21 would fall above the line. More speculatively, if I were to look for a center of gravity located along that line, I would probably put it in southwestern Germany, not far from the upper Rhine. Not a bad candidate for the region where the subclade's rapid expansion began.

The continental distribution for P312* on Rich's map for them is completely different. It is present in those southeastern parts of Europe where L21 appears to be largely absent, as well as all the areas where L21 is found. To draw a line that would encompass nearly all of the the P312*, it would probably have to run south from Helsinki to Istanbul. If I then were to look for a center of gravity along that line, it would probably be in Roumania or western Ukraine. This area includes several river valleys flowing into the Black Sea.

The different distribution appears to be undeniable. Trying to read too much into it may be speculative, but I think it's food for thought.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2010, 02:40:50 PM »

Here is another observation about comparing P312* to L21.

A quick look at the continental L21 map Rich maintains shows it has a limited geographic distribution. If one were to draw a line running northeasterly from Biarritz to Vilnius in Latvia, virtually all L21 would fall above the line. More speculatively, if I were to look for a center of gravity located along that line, I would probably put it in southwestern Germany, not far from the upper Rhine. Not a bad candidate for the region where the subclade's rapid expansion began.

The continental distribution for P312* on Rich's map for them is completely different. It is present in those southeastern parts of Europe where L21 appears to be largely absent, as well as all the areas where L21 is found. To draw a line that would encompass nearly all of the the P312*, it would probably have to run south from Helsinki to Istanbul. If I then were to look for a center of gravity along that line, it would probably be in Roumania or western Ukraine. This area includes several river valleys flowing into the Black Sea.

The different distribution appears to be undeniable. Trying to read too much into it may be speculative, but I think it's food for thought.

  

I think the clue as to where P310, S116, U152 and U106 occurred (if you follow the Danubian east-west model) is which clades do you find at the other ends of the north flowing rivers that run from the Danube/central Europe area?  We have poor clade info for the Danube countries themselves (very poor indeed) but we do have reasonable info for countries at the end of rivers that flow perpendicular to (mainly leading north of) the Danube.  The main rivers are the Rhine, the Elbe and the Vistula.  The Rhine has all the clades so it tells us little.  What about the Elbe?  It empties into north-east Germany near Denmark.  What clades are common there?  Unfortunately its not clear but many people see a lot of U106 and some S116 but a huge drop in L21 and U152 in the parts of Germany accessed by the Elbe compared to the Rhine.   So perhaps that is evidence that L21 occurred along the Danube between those rivers i.e. west of the Elbe but east of the Rhine (well east of the Main actually).  That would perhaps point to the Germany-Austria boundary area for L21.  As for the Vistula, I think that empties into Poland.  I understand U106 is big there and S116 known but U152 and L21 are scarce in non-Ashkenazi people in the Baltic area.  So that could imply that U152 happened along the Danube west of the Vistula but U106 and P310 occurred along the Danube east of the Vistula.  

So that model (and it is only educated guessology) would see a spread of SNPs occurring all along the Danube during an east-west move starting with P310 near the Black Sea end, U106 and S116 on the stretch of the Danube between the Black Sea and the Vistula, U152 occurring along the Danube perhaps somewhere around the longitude of the Elbe and L21 occurring on a stretch of the Danube somewhere east of the Main but west of the Elbe.  Basically the mix changed as you went west along the Danube and that had a big effect on what clades went up the rivers that flow roughly perpendicular to the Danube (the largest ones being north flowing).  I realise that a Danubian model is problematic in terms of explaining the large amount of S116* in Iberia and Italy but I suppose if S116 really did occur on the Danube between the Black Sea and the Vistula then a second route by sea could have hopped off around Croatia where the Danubian and Adriatic are reasonably proximate.

Now all I have to do is look at the project maps to see if this model really works!!          

« Last Edit: April 19, 2010, 02:54:12 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2010, 03:01:40 PM »

By the way, I think L21 probably originated in the Upper Danube and multiplied up along an Upper Danube-Main-Middle Rhine-Mosselle-Seine/Loire route west but smaller quantities could have made it up other paths such as the east bank of the Rhine, Wesser etc to Holland and Germany etc.  Perhaps a modest quantity even made it up the Elbe. There were certainly Bronze Age trade routes between the Upper Elbe/Czech area and the Elbe mouth/southern Scandinavia area. 
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Jean M
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« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2010, 03:32:24 PM »


My own suspicion (total guess) is that the Norwegian L21 got there from a continental source in prehistoric times.     

Mine too, although I think we could elevate it from a total guess to an educated guess.

Agreed. Bell Beaker sites have been found on in Northern Denmark and the southern coast of Norway, but not in Sweden, as far as I know.   
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2010, 06:40:40 PM »

Looking at a physical map of Europe I notice I forgot the Oder river and more importantly there is the issue of the Carpathians and the mountains around the Czech Republic.  They could be argued to cause a barrier in the routes north from the Danube towards the north flowing rivers, perhaps indicating that the main split was between those who headed up the Vistula from the Black Sea area and those who went south of the Carpathians along the Danube. Note sure how much of a barrier to heading up the north flowing rivers these mountains would have been though. 
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vineviz
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« Reply #33 on: April 19, 2010, 07:34:20 PM »

Quote
 I realise that a Danubian model is problematic in terms of explaining the large amount of S116* in Iberia and Italy but I suppose if S116 really did occur on the Danube between the Black Sea and the Vistula then a second route by sea could have hopped off around Croatia where the Danubian and Adriatic are reasonably proximate.

Italy is not a problem in this regard, because there isn't a "large amount" or R-P312* in Italy.  There is much more U152+ and L11- than R-P312*, for example, and approximately as much U106+ as R-P312*.

VV
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2010, 02:51:28 AM »

Quote
 I realise that a Danubian model is problematic in terms of explaining the large amount of S116* in Iberia and Italy but I suppose if S116 really did occur on the Danube between the Black Sea and the Vistula then a second route by sea could have hopped off around Croatia where the Danubian and Adriatic are reasonably proximate.

Italy is not a problem in this regard, because there isn't a "large amount" or R-P312* in Italy.  There is much more U152+ and L11- than R-P312*, for example, and approximately as much U106+ as R-P312*.

VV

I suppose the big issue is how much Mediterranean P310 derived R1b1b2 can be looked at as relatively late overspill from central Europe.  The sheer amount in Italy and especially in Iberia does make attributing it to late prehistoric period, Celts, Germanics etc a little uncomfortable. However, Tim Jansen's calculations of variance for some clades would (if the small sample is not skewing things) support that model.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2010, 02:52:52 AM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
vineviz
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« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2010, 08:02:43 AM »

I suppose the big issue is how much Mediterranean P310 derived R1b1b2 can be looked at as relatively late overspill from central Europe.  The sheer amount in Italy and especially in Iberia does make attributing it to late prehistoric period, Celts, Germanics etc a little uncomfortable. However, Tim Jansen's calculations of variance for some clades would (if the small sample is not skewing things) support that model.

If you are thinking about the "calculations" I think you are thinking about, then I thin the "calculations" were wrong.  We discussed this before, I believe.  Nothing about the variance of any component of R1b1b2 that points toward a much recent influx relative to central Europe.

I'm sure late prehistoric and historic era movements had some impact.  I just don't think they had a significant impact.

VV
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #36 on: April 20, 2010, 09:47:19 AM »

Vince  am always glad to here your views on this subject.  I would guess that if U152 and most p310 derived clades are seen as being as old in Italy then a Danubian model would need rethought a bit. Do you have an opinion on what direction U152 entered Italy from? 
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #37 on: April 20, 2010, 12:27:17 PM »

Probably it is an old prejudice that everything entered Italy. Certainly nothing downstream R1b1*, which is well documented in Italy from the most ancient times. I thought that R downstream R-L51* was born out of Italy, but probably not R-U152, which can have had the contrary route, from Italy to everywhere. Probably the downstream of R-P312 are born in different country and R-U152 perhaps in Italy. We should find some snipped R-P312 in different European Regions.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2010, 12:31:11 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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vineviz
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« Reply #38 on: April 20, 2010, 01:51:26 PM »

Vince  am always glad to here your views on this subject.  I would guess that if U152 and most p310 derived clades are seen as being as old in Italy then a Danubian model would need rethought a bit. Do you have an opinion on what direction U152 entered Italy from? 

I suppose it depends on "how old", and I'll admit up front I am no student of archaelogy or languages.

But I guess my view is that R-U152 is a marker for the hypothosized Italo-Celtic language family, which would reach back to the Chalcolithic era I think.  Language and the Apenninic techo-cultural movements (especially some of the earlier dates imagined) would tie Italy to Danubian and/or Balkan centers of technology at about the right time.

VV
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rms2
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« Reply #39 on: April 20, 2010, 01:52:12 PM »

Not to pat myself on the back, but my little late night adventure a few nights ago recruiting in Ysearch for the R-P312 and Subclades Project paid off in a big way. As of today, 30 new members have joined the R-P312 and Subclades Project, all but one of them either a current resident of a European country or able to trace his ancestry there.

Two were U152+.

Of the rest, nine of them have not been tested for L21, but one of those (as I mentioned before) is an R1b North-South guy, so he is surely R-P312*. The other eight I have encouraged to test for L21. Three of them so far have the L21 test on order. I am hoping the others will follow suit.

The other 18 (all R-P312*) break down as follows:

Iberian Peninsula: 8

Western Europe: 8

Greece: 1

Scandinavia: 1

When I get the chance, I plan to rework the categories on the Y-DNA Results page, arranging them by countries rather than merely by region. I will only do that for R-P312*, however. Most of the subclades have their own projects. No need for me to duplicate their work.

The R1b North-South guy I mentioned above (the one never tested for L21) has ancestry in Germany, so you can add him to the Western Europe column above. I don't see any need for him to order an L21 test.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2010, 01:56:15 PM by rms2 » Logged

GoldenHind
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« Reply #40 on: April 20, 2010, 06:18:03 PM »

Once again, great work Rich. That both projects are as comprehensive as they are is largely due to your efforts.
I look forward to seeing all the new members on the project maps.

EDIT: I see they are all there on the map. I failed to notice there is now a page 2.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2010, 08:29:33 PM by GoldenHind » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #41 on: April 20, 2010, 08:55:18 PM »

Once again, great work Rich. That both projects are as comprehensive as they are is largely due to your efforts.
I look forward to seeing all the new members on the project maps.

EDIT: I see they are all there on the map. I failed to notice there is now a page 2.

Thanks!

Yeah, the recent influx of new members pushed the map over onto a second page.

I rearranged the categories, but I haven't parsed out the R-P312* Eastern Europe category yet. That's my next project.

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jerome72
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« Reply #42 on: April 27, 2010, 08:32:23 AM »

Given that L21 is also P312, we thought, perhaps, wrongly that both groups came in the Western Europe by the same road. But I find that this assumption is contracdiction with the fact that we find very little P312* in Ireland.

If one tries to approximate the haplogroups with prehistoric cultures (very dangerous, I admit it!),maybe we could see this there:
The Corded Ware culture came from the east with the majority as majority haplogroup L21
The Bell-Beaker of the first phase, from Spain and Portugal, going back up northwarth as haplogroup majority P312*.
The meeting of the two cultures have given the Celtic language (from Archaeology magazine that I am reading now).
The Beaker culture is especially prevalent along the lines of communication (coasts, along rivers).
Thus this culture (bell- Beaker) may well be spread without any massive population
P312 * is perhaps first came to Spain by the Mediterranean sea (Balkans?, Italy?)

What do you think about this?
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MHammers
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« Reply #43 on: April 27, 2010, 11:47:35 PM »

Given that L21 is also P312, we thought, perhaps, wrongly that both groups came in the Western Europe by the same road. But I find that this assumption is contracdiction with the fact that we find very little P312* in Ireland.

If one tries to approximate the haplogroups with prehistoric cultures (very dangerous, I admit it!),maybe we could see this there:
The Corded Ware culture came from the east with the majority as majority haplogroup L21
The Bell-Beaker of the first phase, from Spain and Portugal, going back up northwarth as haplogroup majority P312*.
The meeting of the two cultures have given the Celtic language (from Archaeology magazine that I am reading now).
The Beaker culture is especially prevalent along the lines of communication (coasts, along rivers).
Thus this culture (bell- Beaker) may well be spread without any massive population
P312 * is perhaps first came to Spain by the Mediterranean sea (Balkans?, Italy?)

What do you think about this?

Corded-ware territory is mostly R1a today and with R1a aDna found in two Corded-ware individuals.  It doesn't mean r1b couldn't be present during that time period in Germany or Poland.   The people of the Corded-ware culture were originally forest foragers who adopted steppe customs/lifestyle about a millenia after the people of the steppe were doing it.   I think for the most part, R1b would have been south and west of them.  The Cordeds were important in the development of the Indo-Iranians though.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2010, 11:54:35 PM by MHammers » Logged

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2010, 09:47:54 AM »

The bushiness of R1b1b2 around the L11/S116/U106/U152/L21 seems to be a unique event in its history where some sort of demographic window of opportunity was seized.  There is no evidence I am aware of of two periods of demographic explosion in R1b1b2's early history.  So, if this is not due to the spread of farming (still very much an IF in my opinion)  then we need to look at cultures who were marginal to the demographic advantages of early farming in the early Neolithic and who somehow gained some sort of major advantage a few 1000 years later in the late Neolithic.  I dont feel my knowledge of late Neolithic eastern/SE Europe and SW Asia is up to making a suggestion.   
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MHammers
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« Reply #45 on: April 28, 2010, 12:57:31 PM »

Hi Alan,

As you mentioned, there is something that gives these downstream R1b's a competitive demographic advantage that you don't see in other European Y HG's like J2, E-V13, and G2.  Even HG I, is only strong in certain regions in central and western Europe.  Here are two highly speculative possibilities:

Scenario 1:
R1b came in with the Neolithic farmers, then they inherit the gene for Lactase persistence from the Pontic steppe where it probably emerged.  Funnelbeaker people had this gene, but not the earlier farmers.  The Cucuteni-Tripolye farmers lived in western Ukraine and Romania for about 2,000 yrs., before the major IE expansions began and finally absorbed/overran them.  Plenty of time to learn IE, acquire LP and Kurgan culture.  They, then would have arrived with steppe incursions during the 4th-3rd mil. primarily into Hungary.  Other HGs were maybe more west or among the Cardial-ware Neolithic and didn't benefit from this.

Scenario 2:
R1b were not originally farmers, but arrived in Europe with the Yamnaya migrations c.3000BC.  Their origin still may have been SW Asia, but they came around the Caucasus instead of with the Balkan Neolithic farmers.

Scenario 2 better explains the R1b in some Asia populations.  With either scenario early L11 and P312 was likely close to Hungary, Poland, or Ukraine.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2010, 12:59:05 PM by MHammers » Logged

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NealtheRed
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« Reply #46 on: April 28, 2010, 03:47:45 PM »

Given that L21 is also P312, we thought, perhaps, wrongly that both groups came in the Western Europe by the same road. But I find that this assumption is contracdiction with the fact that we find very little P312* in Ireland.

If one tries to approximate the haplogroups with prehistoric cultures (very dangerous, I admit it!),maybe we could see this there:
The Corded Ware culture came from the east with the majority as majority haplogroup L21
The Bell-Beaker of the first phase, from Spain and Portugal, going back up northwarth as haplogroup majority P312*.
The meeting of the two cultures have given the Celtic language (from Archaeology magazine that I am reading now).
The Beaker culture is especially prevalent along the lines of communication (coasts, along rivers).
Thus this culture (bell- Beaker) may well be spread without any massive population
P312 * is perhaps first came to Spain by the Mediterranean sea (Balkans?, Italy?)

What do you think about this?

Corded-ware territory is mostly R1a today and with R1a aDna found in two Corded-ware individuals.  It doesn't mean r1b couldn't be present during that time period in Germany or Poland.   The people of the Corded-ware culture were originally forest foragers who adopted steppe customs/lifestyle about a millenia after the people of the steppe were doing it.   I think for the most part, R1b would have been south and west of them.  The Cordeds were important in the development of the Indo-Iranians though.

In reference to Corded Ware, was Scandinavia included in its spread? R1a does not exceed 30% of the population in those countries (excluding Finland), and is overshadowed by R1b in Norway, I believe.

I am confused. Is R1a associated with Satem (Indo-Iranian) languages? Didn't Proto-Germanic stem from Corded Ware?
« Last Edit: April 28, 2010, 03:50:05 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

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« Reply #47 on: April 28, 2010, 04:25:07 PM »

Some Corded-ware variants were in Finland and Sweden, Battle-Axe culture I think. Proto-Germanic may have evolved in Corded-ware territory (maybe Poland or Belarus?).  It was brought there by interaction with steppe people.  Germanic being a Centum branch spread north and west into today's Germanic countries.

As to R1a and Indo-Iranian, there is a series of subsequent cultures stemming from CW and leading up to Sintashta/Andronovo around the southern Urals.  All eastern-focused carrying the Satem branch and probably lots of R1a.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #48 on: April 28, 2010, 04:43:24 PM »

Ok, I see now.

I was just wondering why R1a would play a great role in Centum when today's Centum-speaking populations are low on R1a - including Germanic ones.
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« Reply #49 on: April 28, 2010, 06:46:48 PM »

Ok, I see now.

I was just wondering why R1a would play a great role in Centum when today's Centum-speaking populations are low on R1a - including Germanic ones.

I think there was considerable overlap of HGs in those places as today.  Generally though, r1a=north and east/satem branch/forest cultures; r1b=south and west/centum branch/steppe and farming cultures.  Only in later times, did satem speakers move south and onto the steppe as Indo-Iranians, Scythians, Slavs, and so on.  The aDna confirms they were heavily R1a. 
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