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Author Topic: The World (or at least R1b1b2 Europe) according to Anatole  (Read 3673 times)
Mike Walsh
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« on: April 10, 2010, 09:45:50 AM »

On another forum, the always interesting Anatole Klosov expressed a multiple route hypothesis for how R1b1b2 immigrated into Europe.  I have no doubt there were multiple routes as the situations seems ended up with complex set of distributions so I appreciate Anatole's willingness to hypothesize it.

Here is my interpretation of the routes he is articulating.

0) Existence in the Russian Plains (?Pontic Steppes?) 5000-4000 BC
1) Directly into Central Europe as the Kurgan Culture ?3000 BC?
2) To Anatolia into Southeastern Europe
3) Through the Caucasus 4000 BC to the Middle East
    then all the way across North Africa 3500-2800 BC
    and into Iberia 2800BC
    finally into Continental Europe as the Bell Beaker Culture 2800-1900 BC

Quote from: Anatole Klyosov date=April 9 2010
.... You, however, have uncovered a very important - historically - indication, concerning the Southern route of arrival of R1b1b2 to Europe, via the Iberian peninsula.

There were, apparently, several routes of R1b1b2 migrations to Europe, including  a direct East-West route from the Russian Plain (the "Kurgan culture", mistakenly assigned by many to R1a1, which in fact were moving much later and in the opposing direction), another East-West route via Asia Minor, and yet another East-West route from the Middle East (through the Caucasus from the Russian Plain before that, around 7,000-6,000 ybp). That "third", North African route between 5500 and 4800 ybp (estimates) reached the Atlantics and then North to Iberia, and then to the Continental Europe as the Beaker culture (~ 4800-3900 ybp). The Caucasus R1b1b2 were L23 in a large extent (~ 6000 ybp), which have arrived to Iberia around 4800 ybp, mainly as P312, or they became mainly P312 after they had passed a severe bottleneck, since the current R1b1b2 in Iberia have a common ancestor of 3625-3700 ybp (plus-minus a margin of error), and the Beakers were moving to the Continental Europe as P312 and the downstream L21 (a common ancestor of L21 lived around 3725 ybp, give or take a few centuries).

That is why there are so few of U106 in Iberia, regardless it be 0.1%, 0.4% or 2%. They are way upstream of the Iberian P312, and their route to Europe was a different one (for example, one of the two other routes, see above). A common ancestor of the current U106 lived 4175+/-430 years before present.

I'm not saying I agree with everything he is saying.  I'm just trying to understand it.

I think his idea is that P312 arouse on route 3 along the way in North Africa.  L21 then arose on route 3 at the end of the journey in Continental Europe.

I'm not sure which route U106 was carried along.   Is he saying the direct "Kurgan" route, route 1?  Michael Maddi thinks U106 is older in Poland and East Europe than in Germany and the Isles.  Poland is the direct route from Russia, along the north side of the Carpathians, is it not?

He doesn't say much about route 2 but I presume that since it was Anatolian staged, it would have went on to the Balkans and Greece, being Mycenaeans and I don't know else.  Is that the implication of route 2?
« Last Edit: April 10, 2010, 09:47:56 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2010, 11:16:37 AM »

Multiple routes make more sense than this from Vizachero. “ALL R1b1b2 entered Europe from the Near East,” I don’t believe that! 

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2010-04/1270896856

“The fact is that ALL R1b1b2 entered Europe from the Near East, and
Iberia is no exception to that rule.”

I'll go along with the below. It makes more sense to me than the other nonsense scenarios of there being only one route.

“I think his idea is that P312 arouse on route 3 along the way in North Africa. L21 then arose on route 3 at the end of the journey in Continental Europe.”

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rms2
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« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2010, 11:23:10 AM »

I don't think there is much evidence for a North African route of R1b1b2 into Europe.

I think L21 emerged somewhere north of the Alps after the journey of P312 from Central or Eastern Europe.

I think it even possible that P312 arose in western Asia somewhere.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2010, 11:23:30 AM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2010, 11:33:52 AM »

That’s what makes this field interesting. We all have opinions.
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rms2
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« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2010, 11:37:03 AM »

Eventually someone might even opine that R1b1b2 was seeded on earth by aliens from outer space.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2010, 11:38:43 AM »

Easy, Travolta.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2010, 11:47:17 AM »

I don't think there is much evidence for a North African route of R1b1b2 into Europe.
....
I am not aware of what R-M269 haplotypes and subclades are present in North Africa but I'm sure there must be some.   Some could argue that Vandals brought it there from Spain rather than the other way around.

However, I think we do need to understand R-M269 in North Africa. Does anyone know where it is most numerous and how the subclades, be they Ht35-like or whatever, are distributed geographically?
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rms2
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« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2010, 11:50:56 AM »

Easy, Travolta.

Hey, it's all too true, don't ya know!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcUx9pEKXQM&feature=related
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vineviz
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« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2010, 12:35:55 PM »

Multiple routes make more sense than this from Vizachero. “ALL R1b1b2 entered Europe from the Near East,” I don’t believe that! 
Why not?
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vineviz
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« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2010, 12:47:10 PM »

I'm not saying I agree with everything he is saying.  I'm just trying to understand it.
Leaving aside the technical weakness, Anatole is struggling with a problem that baffles many people: he is starting with a premise ("R1b1b2 originated on the Russian plain") then concocting a convoluted story in an attempt to twist the data to suit his story.

What evidence is there that R1b1b2 first arose on the Russian Plain?  None.

What evidence is there that R1b1b2 entered Iberia from North Africa? None.

What evidence is there that R-P312* expanded NW from Iberia?  None.

Also, how do you explain the narrow genetic distance between the respective MRCAs of  R-L11, R-P312, and R-U106  if you are sending one thundering across the Russian plain and the other sailing along the coast of North Africa 3000 years later.  That's a tall order.

VV
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« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2010, 01:19:07 PM »

It makes absolutely no sense to me that “ALL R1b1b2 entered Europe from the Near East,” People are random. People are not predictable. We moved about in all sorts of haphazard ways in the twentieth century. To think our ancestors had more structure and followed a precise single migration route is folly.

People argue get into disagreements and strike out on their own taking a different path. Not all R1b1b2 men adhered to the principle of follow the leader. At least some R1b1b2 men would have taken families in a different direction if not for survival than just for the heck of an adventure. We are not sheep that can be herded in one single direction.
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vineviz
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« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2010, 01:26:03 PM »

People argue get into disagreements and strike out on their own taking a different path. Not all R1b1b2 men adhered to the principle of follow the leader. At least some R1b1b2 men would have taken families in a different direction if not for survival than just for the heck of an adventure. We are not sheep that can be herded in one single direction.

I'm still not sure what you are driving at.

The origin of haplogroup R1b1b2 is in the Near East. Ultimately, we are talking about one man (the MRCA of R-M269) living at a particular place at a particular time. 

All I'm saying is that if you are R1b1b2, and you follow your Y-line back far enough, you'll end up in the Near East.

I was objecting to Anatole's dismissal of all R-U106 Iberian men as "tourists", as if U106 is somehow inherently less "Iberian" than P312.  We don't even know which got to Iberia first, so why resort to such flippant stereotypes?  Even if P312 was there first, does arriving someplace second make you a "tourist"?

An analogy would be calling German-Americans "tourists" because they arrived in the U.S. after the British.  Bah!

VV
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2010, 01:47:28 PM »

....
The origin of haplogroup R1b1b2 is in the Near East. Ultimately, we are talking about one man (the MRCA of R-M269) living at a particular place at a particular time. 
....
VV, Any particular sub-region of the Near East that makes the most sense? 

Are you speaking of the Levant only? ... and/or further down the Arabian Peninsula?
Are you including Turkey?
Are you including Iran?
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« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2010, 02:10:08 PM »

You asked why I preferred multiple routes and I gave you my answer.

“We are not sheep that can be herded in one single direction.”



“All I'm saying is that if you are R1b1b2, and you follow your Y-line back far enough, you'll end up in the Near East.”

Maybe so, science will eventually give us a definitive answer. I don’t think we are there yet.

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vineviz
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« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2010, 02:25:23 PM »

You asked why I preferred multiple routes and I gave you my answer.
That's not what I asked.  I asked why you thought that all R1b1b2 did not enter Europe from the Near East. 

Whether there was one route or twenty, the trail starts in the Near East.

All Europeans came to America from Europe.  The fact that some came through Boston, some through New York, some through Baltimore, etc. doesn't really change the reality of where they originated.
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vineviz
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« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2010, 02:31:11 PM »

VV, Any particular sub-region of the Near East that makes the most sense? 
I don't think we are there yet.

I tend to use Near East as a broad descriptor for southwest Asia.  It would in my mind included Anatolia, the Levant, Iran, Iraq, the Arabian peninsula, and the southern part of the Caucusas (e.g. Armenia, Georgia, etc.).

I would tend to doubt an origin for R1b1b2 on the Arabian peninsula, but the rest of the region would all be candidates I think.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2010, 03:23:06 PM »

I know you talked about this previously, Vince, but do you think that ht35 was the main input into the Balkans? Or was ht15 right there with it?

I remember you said we do not yet know if ht15 went north of the Caucasus.
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rms2
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« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2010, 03:52:13 PM »

. . .
Also, how do you explain the narrow genetic distance between the respective MRCAs of  R-L11, R-P312, and R-U106  if you are sending one thundering across the Russian plain and the other sailing along the coast of North Africa 3000 years later.  That's a tall order.

VV

Actually, that is a point I was going to make earlier, and then I got distracted with my own "Highlander" video silliness.

It's kind of hard to posit multiple routes for R1b1b2 when everyone is obviously so close.

And isn't he really proposing three different routes?

We may not all be sheep, but we R1b1b2s are all pretty closely related men.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2010, 04:31:31 PM »

I don't think there is much evidence for a North African route of R1b1b2 into Europe.

I think L21 emerged somewhere north of the Alps after the journey of P312 from Central or Eastern Europe.

I think it even possible that P312 arose in western Asia somewhere.
I agree with each of these statements.
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« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2010, 04:32:56 PM »

Eventually someone might even opine that R1b1b2 was seeded on earth by aliens from outer space.
I think that is limited to my own narrow R1b cluster, which I like to characterize as the R1b-Martian cluster.
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« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2010, 04:55:32 PM »

You beat me to it, I was going to use Martians in my example.

Oh well, here it is.

“That's not what I asked. I asked why you thought that all R1b1b2 did not enter Europe from the Near East.”

Again, all R1b1b2 males did not enter Europe from the Near East. You are mixing routes of entry with your preferred origin theory. If the first R1b1b2 male was born on Mars with offspring, traveling to one of Saturn’s moons then to Earth in four generations no one would refer to these R1b1b2 Earthlings as Martians. They traveled from one of Saturn’s moons to Earth.  

“Whether there was one route or twenty, the trail starts in the Near East.”

As per the example above, the trail may have begun on Mars; however, that does not make these R1b1b2 Earthlings Martians. All R1b1b2 males will not be known as Martians upon traveling to Earth. Of course there is a distinction in “the reality of where they originated.” R1b1b2 Martians did not travel to Earth. Only descendants who came from one of Saturn’s moons ever made it to Earth. And they are not Martians.

Rich said,

“It's kind of hard to posit multiple routes for R1b1b2 when everyone is obviously so close."

The men from Saturn’s moon would be four generations removed from the Martian ancestor. Multiple routes are not difficult for me to fathom. Laugh if you must, however, it seems perfectly reasonable to me to have “multiple routes” of entry into Europe.

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rms2
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« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2010, 05:01:39 PM »

You still have to get people who were closely related to one another separated by fairly great distances in a relatively short amount of time and then have them all get the notion to head into Europe by different routes.

A single origin and locus make more sense, with dispersal later, inside Europe.

That is exactly the scenario the relatively short TMRCAs indicate.

Anything else involves a kind of arcane, convoluted form of reasoning.
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« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2010, 05:12:50 PM »

“You still have to get people who were closely related to one another separated by fairly great distances in a relatively short amount of time and then have them all get the notion to head into Europe by different routes.”

No doubt, about it, people pick up and move even today, what a shock.
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rms2
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« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2010, 05:21:43 PM »

The question is not whether the bearers of R1b1b2 moved; we know they did. The question is whether they all came in from basically the same general direction or if they first became widely separated and then somehow, intuitively, all wound up together in Europe, coming in from several different directions, all within a short amount of time, so that they are still, even today, all closely related.
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vineviz
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« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2010, 05:51:22 PM »

Again, all R1b1b2 males did not enter Europe from the Near East. You are mixing routes of entry with your preferred origin theory.
No, I'm ignoring routes of entry because they are irrelevant to the question.

Five men get in five cars in New York.  Three days later they all end up in Los Angeles.  They came to Los Angeles from New York, regardless of which route(s) they took to get there.

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