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Author Topic: Bretagne (Brittany) and R-L21  (Read 6638 times)
rms2
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« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2010, 03:12:17 PM »

We know that many Bretons (of Brittany) immigrated from Britanny to the rest of France during the Normand invasion. Brittany is almost fallen into the hands of Norman
I am not sure this is true. The Viking occupied the valley of the Loire and in particular the city of Nantes, but the rest of Brittany has remained free. Brittany loses his latest conquests in Anjou, Maine County and Normandy, but that's all. The rest of Brittany has remained outside of battles.

I remember reading somewhere awhile back that the Bretons eventually drove the vikings out of Bretagne and were particularly successful in doing so. I forget the name of the Breton leader who defeated the vikings.

I am kind of interested in Bretagne because my own surname, Stevens, or at least one family with that surname, was supposedly founded in England by a Breton knight whose surname was Fitzstephen. Of course, I have no evidence to connect myself with him at all, but it's a nice story. :-)

Anyway, I do have a confirmed ancestor, Dr. Paul Micou, a physician, who came from Nantes to Virginia in the 17th century.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2010, 03:13:58 PM by rms2 » Logged

NealtheRed
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« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2010, 04:06:18 PM »

I think the Breton who drove out the Vikings was called Alan the Great.
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jerome72
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« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2010, 08:32:39 PM »

Yes, the Breton and Norman have often clashed
The battle the best known is probably that of Questembert in 890

Judicaël and Alain decided to unite to expel the Normans who occupied twenty years
the region of Dol (now in Ille et Vilaine) and that of Nantes.
The Norman army is constituted by 15 000 men come from the North and from the South of Brittany.
According to recorded history, only 400 normans managed to escape.
With this victory Alain becomes Alain le Grand (Alan the Great)
But at his death in 907, the battles with the Normans resumed.
The Britanny in prey to looting. This is one of the darkest periods of Brittany.
The Breton elite fled to England and  France.
The grandson of Alain le Grand returns from England with an army of Saxons in 936.
In 939, the Normans were defeated, Alain Barbe Torte became Duke of Brittany

http://www.skoluhelarvro.org/culture-bretagne/batailles/detail.php?id=113
http://www.infobretagne.com/chronologie-histoire-bretagne.htm
http://histoirefrance.e-monsite.com/rubrique,histoire-de-la-bretagne,300883.html
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2010, 03:13:46 PM »

Yes, the Breton and Norman have often clashed
The battle the best known is probably that of Questembert in 890

Judicaël and Alain decided to unite to expel the Normans who occupied twenty years
the region of Dol (now in Ille et Vilaine) and that of Nantes.
The Norman army is constituted by 15 000 men come from the North and from the South of Brittany.
According to recorded history, only 400 normans managed to escape.
With this victory Alain becomes Alain le Grand (Alan the Great)
But at his death in 907, the battles with the Normans resumed.
The Britanny in prey to looting. This is one of the darkest periods of Brittany.
The Breton elite fled to England and  France.
The grandson of Alain le Grand returns from England with an army of Saxons in 936.
In 939, the Normans were defeated, Alain Barbe Torte became Duke of Brittany

http://www.skoluhelarvro.org/culture-bretagne/batailles/detail.php?id=113
http://www.infobretagne.com/chronologie-histoire-bretagne.htm
http://histoirefrance.e-monsite.com/rubrique,histoire-de-la-bretagne,300883.html
I assume the "Normans" referred to here at the battle in 890 are more correctly Norsemen or Vikings, as Rollo was not given control of the area around Roeun until 911.
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jerome72
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« Reply #29 on: April 13, 2010, 12:15:13 AM »

I assume the "Normans" referred to here at the battle in 890 are more correctly Norsemen or Vikings, as Rollo was not given control of the area around Roeun until 911.
Yes, but in french, Norsemen is normand
Originally, in french, Norman designate the Vikings from Scandinavia.
The King of France gave them a region which was called Normandy, the land of the Normans.
After, of course, every inhabitant of Normandy called Normand.

Excuse me for my confusion on the words in English
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rms2
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« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2010, 07:46:20 AM »


Yes, but in french, Norsemen is normand
Originally, in french, Norman designate the Vikings from Scandinavia.
The King of France gave them a region which was called Normandy, the land of the Normans.
After, of course, every inhabitant of Normandy called Normand.

Excuse me for my confusion on the words in English


I could tell from the context what and whom you were talking about.

As I mentioned over on the R-L21 in France thread, I found a new Breton R-L21 yesterday evening: Sebille, kit N81310, whose ancestor came from Quemper-Guézennec, in Côtes-d'Armor.

I couldn't find a Ysearch entry for him, but I contacted FTDNA to try to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2010, 09:12:39 AM »

....   Vikings from Scandinavia.  The King of France gave them a region which was called Normandy, the land of the Normans. After, of course, every inhabitant of Normandy called Normand.  ....
Is this a fair statement?  A Norman is a person from Normandy regardless of rather they had direct Scandinavia descent or were Romano-Gaul or Breton or Frank or something else.

It seems fair to me.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #32 on: April 13, 2010, 06:19:13 PM »

....   Vikings from Scandinavia.  The King of France gave them a region which was called Normandy, the land of the Normans. After, of course, every inhabitant of Normandy called Normand.  ....
Is this a fair statement?  A Norman is a person from Normandy regardless of rather they had direct Scandinavia descent or were Romano-Gaul or Breton or Frank or something else.

It seems fair to me.

Correct. In modern English usage, Norman refers to people or things from Normandy. Though the word has the same root as Norseman or Northman, it doesn't have the same meaning today, at least in the English language.  Thus the Norman language refers to the Norman dialect of Old French, the Norse language to the Old Scandinavian language, two entirely different languages.

The term Norman should also be distinguished from Breton, Poitivin, Flemish, etc.

Normandy did not exist as such before 911, when Rouen and the surrounding area were ceded to Rollo and his Viking followers by the French king. It acquired the name Normandy for precisely the reason Jerome states- it was the land of the Norsemen.
Before 911 the area was called Neustria.

Sorry to be splitting hairs once again, but the incorrect use of some of these terms can cause a lot of confusion.
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rms2
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« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2010, 07:47:02 PM »

Three French citizens, all with the surname Tatard, and all with Breton ancestry, recently joined the R-P312 and Subclades Project. They don't appear to be related to each other within genealogical time.

One of them is R-L21, but the other two are both R-P312*. The latter R-P312* pair, although apparently unrelated, both belong to the "R1b North-South Cluster".
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OConnor
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« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2010, 09:12:39 AM »

That's interesting Rich.
i wonder about surnames on the Continent.
i guess there was a poll tax issue in France like there was in England?

1558 - 1603. Surnames became necessary when governments introduced personal taxation. In England this was known as Poll Tax.



« Last Edit: April 29, 2010, 09:22:22 AM by OConnor » Logged

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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
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Jdean
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« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2010, 02:05:58 PM »

That's interesting Rich.
i wonder about surnames on the Continent.
i guess there was a poll tax issue in France like there was in England?

1558 - 1603. Surnames became necessary when governments introduced personal taxation. In England this was known as Poll Tax.


Personal taxation predates this in England, I have transcriptions of taxation documents from Sussex in the late 13th C. and a Poll tax was a major contributory factor of the Peasants' Revolt in 1381

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peasants'_Revolt

Interestingly there were quite a few riots in the UK when Margret Thatcher introduced a Poll tax system in the late 1980's, an emotive issue apparently.
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rms2
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« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2010, 08:55:57 PM »

Another Breton R-L21 came in a couple of nights ago: de Quelen, kit N69948. He's a French citizen, and his ancestor came from Locarn in Côtes-d'Armor. As of right now, he only has 12 markers.
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