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rms2
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« on: April 06, 2010, 08:05:07 PM »

I don't know if any of you keep an eye on the R-P312* Map on the Results page of the R-P312 and Subclades Project, but maybe you should.

Just a few days ago we added a member whose most distant y-dna ancestor came from Malta (a relatively small island south of Sicily in the Mediterranean Sea): Muscat, Ysearch N27DS.

I don't know if any more Maltese R-P312* will show up anytime soon, but it is interesting.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 08:05:28 PM by rms2 » Logged

Jdean
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« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2010, 08:20:33 PM »

I don't know if any of you keep an eye on the R-P312* Map on the Results page of the R-P312 and Subclades Project, but maybe you should.

Just a few days ago we added a member whose most distant y-dna ancestor came from Malta (a relatively small island south of Sicily in the Mediterranean Sea): Muscat, Ysearch N27DS.

I don't know if any more Maltese R-P312* will show up anytime soon, but it is interesting.

Not my usual kind of advice but Malta has very close connections with the British Isles, one of my wife’s uncles was born there for instance plus an old friend from school.

Of course I'm not saying this person is a Brit NPE but thought I should mention it.
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« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2010, 08:41:25 PM »

I don't know if any of you keep an eye on the R-P312* Map on the Results page of the R-P312 and Subclades Project, but maybe you should.

Just a few days ago we added a member whose most distant y-dna ancestor came from Malta (a relatively small island south of Sicily in the Mediterranean Sea): Muscat, Ysearch N27DS.

I don't know if any more Maltese R-P312* will show up anytime soon, but it is interesting.

Not my usual kind of advice but Malta has very close connections with the British Isles, one of my wife’s uncles was born there for instance plus an old friend from school.

Of course I'm not saying this person is a Brit NPE but thought I should mention it.


Anything is possible, I guess. The Brits got around to a lot of places, but remember, too, R-P312* is not as common in Britain as it is in continental Europe, especially when one considers the incredible British overload in the y-dna databases.

Muscat doesn't have any real close matches, but his haplotype isn't all that uncommon either. He seems to be 6 to 8 off everybody and his brother, including people in different subclades. His closest match, 33/37, is with an Andrade (Ysearch JNB8U) of Portuguese ancestry.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 08:55:45 PM by rms2 » Logged

NealtheRed
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« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2010, 08:45:03 PM »

That is really interesting, Rich.

Since P312* is omnipresent throughout Europe, maybe it came with the Greeks? Didn't the Greeks settle in Malta? A thought...
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rms2
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« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2010, 08:52:08 PM »

That is really interesting, Rich.

Since P312* is omnipresent throughout Europe, maybe it came with the Greeks? Didn't the Greeks settle in Malta? A thought...

I don't know, honestly. His closest match is Portuguese, but even that (33/37) isn't what I would call super close.
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« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2010, 10:07:21 PM »

I don't know if any of you keep an eye on the R-P312* Map on the Results page of the R-P312 and Subclades Project, but maybe you should.

Just a few days ago we added a member whose most distant y-dna ancestor came from Malta (a relatively small island south of Sicily in the Mediterranean Sea): Muscat, Ysearch N27DS.

I don't know if any more Maltese R-P312* will show up anytime soon, but it is interesting.

Not my usual kind of advice but Malta has very close connections with the British Isles, one of my wife’s uncles was born there for instance plus an old friend from school.

Of course I'm not saying this person is a Brit NPE but thought I should mention it.

The Knights of Malta, aka of St. John or the Hospitalers, drawn from throughout Europe, were there long before the British. If we want to start speculating on a NPE, he could come from anywhere.
What I find most interesting about P312*, as opposed to all other R1b subclades (I know it's technically a paragroup and probably incorporates as yet undicovered subclades), is that it appears to be truly ubiquitous across Europe. All the others eem to have some sort of geographical bias.
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« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2010, 01:44:56 AM »

Probably Maltese are 90% of Italian origin (above all from Calabria and Sicily), the rest of all the others, even though someone is trying to convince them to be Lebanese etc. (and they believe it). As I have demonstrated in the past on other fora, Malta was repeopled in Middle Ages, even from Sicilians converted to Islam with an Arab surname, and Muscat isn't an Italian surname, even though we have Moscato/Moscati. Malta has very ancient R1b1b2 as the other Mediterranean Islands, difficult to say from when: the first peopling of Europe from East via Sea, a North origin if my theory of the Italian Refugium will be demonstrated etc.
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« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2010, 02:16:32 AM »

From Muscat/Moscati surname, to honor British pride:

"Muscat or Moscati is the surname of an important Maltese Noble family.
Malta is unique in that it has had some form of nobility from very ancient times. Indeed, this little island had a highly developed civilization when the lands of the British Empire were unknown and when Britain itself had not yet emerged from barbarism. Maltese nobility as it exists today was founded by Count Roger of Normandy in 1090 when he liberated Malta from Arab rule and it became part of the Kingdom of Sicily.
The surname appears to be of local origin, being one of those names derived from the place where a man once lived or where he once held land. In this instance, it would denote a former resident of Muscat, the capital of the Oman which is known to have existed as an independent emirate before the tenth century. Thus, the name would have been brought to Malta by the Arabs.
Alternatively, the name may be of occupational origin, being one of those names derived from the type of work a man once did or the profession he once pursued. In this instance, the name would signify a person who grew muscat grapes in order to produce wine".

I remember to you all that the name of the ancestor of this Muscat was "Antonio", not certainly a British name (indeed an Etruscan one of a Roman gens) and the town of origin was named "Cospicua", not declined like "conspicuous".

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« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2010, 04:33:02 AM »

From Muscat/Moscati surname, to honor British pride:

"Muscat or Moscati is the surname of an important Maltese Noble family.
Malta is unique in that it has had some form of nobility from very ancient times. Indeed, this little island had a highly developed civilization when the lands of the British Empire were unknown and when Britain itself had not yet emerged from barbarism. Maltese nobility as it exists today was founded by Count Roger of Normandy in 1090 when he liberated Malta from Arab rule and it became part of the Kingdom of Sicily.
The surname appears to be of local origin, being one of those names derived from the place where a man once lived or where he once held land. In this instance, it would denote a former resident of Muscat, the capital of the Oman which is known to have existed as an independent emirate before the tenth century. Thus, the name would have been brought to Malta by the Arabs.
Alternatively, the name may be of occupational origin, being one of those names derived from the type of work a man once did or the profession he once pursued. In this instance, the name would signify a person who grew muscat grapes in order to produce wine".

I remember to you all that the name of the ancestor of this Muscat was "Antonio", not certainly a British name (indeed an Etruscan one of a Roman gens) and the town of origin was named "Cospicua", not declined like "conspicuous".



No, no British pride involved whatsoever, for sure most of the Mediterranean's were sitting down discussing politics and philosophy when the Brits were still painting themselves blue.

I wasn't referring to ancient history anyway, just pointing out that in resent times a great deal of Brits have lived there, a statement that in all likelihood is irrelevant anyway.

I did read an interesting article about the cooking in Malta were the author suggested the cuisine may be a remnant of Phoenician traders.

WRT the Isles, undoubtedly a great no. of Y-lines of people who can trace there families back a fair way didn't originate from here in an historical timeframe. I personally have yet to come up with proof that my line is ancient British which doesn't bother me a jot either way, but one day I hope to have a better idea where my 6th C. grandfather was more likely sitting, whether he was running and hiding from Saxons, trying to find that pesky Welshman who kept pinching his goats or sipping fine wine whilst eating some sort of yogurt dip.

« Last Edit: April 07, 2010, 04:40:25 AM by Jdean » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2010, 05:07:17 AM »

R-L21* is perhaps the unique haplogroup not born in Italy (but we have in the Alpine Region the ancient haplotype of Argiedude that doesn't exclude an ancient Italian origin also of this hg.). Certainly the fact that you match closely the ht35 haplogroup  (mine), above all in the slow mutating markers, I think that makes your haplotype to be very ancient, very "original", probably one of the first born from R-P312. And you have some links also with this Maltese Muskat/Moscati, then I think, if you are curious about your origin, that your ancestors lived in the ancient Britain, that were the most ancient immigrants come from South, probably the first inhabitants of the Isles.
Your link with South and above all with Italy I think is beyond dispute.
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« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2010, 06:09:37 AM »

R-L21* is perhaps the unique haplogroup not born in Italy (but we have in the Alpine Region the ancient haplotype of Argiedude that doesn't exclude an ancient Italian origin also of this hg.). Certainly the fact that you match closely the ht35 haplogroup  (mine), above all in the slow mutating markers, I think that makes your haplotype to be very ancient, very "original", probably one of the first born from R-P312. And you have some links also with this Maltese Muskat/Moscati, then I think, if you are curious about your origin, that your ancestors lived in the ancient Britain, that were the most ancient immigrants come from South, probably the first inhabitants of the Isles.
Your link with South and above all with Italy I think is beyond dispute.

Thank you for this very interesting observation, I'm (like everybody else) always keen to hear what can be made of my results.

However (and please don't take this the wrong way) despite keenly reading all your posts I have never really understood quite what you are getting at with this Ht35 thing, are there any websites or articles you can point me to that may help me understand a bit better?

As it happens I believe I have discovered a small clade (never been one for joining clubs but I think I would quite like being in a clade) that I think I belong to, I have only found two other families that appear to match it and the closest to myself (GD 60/67) is confirmed R-L21. Unfortunately everybody in the second family (who have a very British sounding name) stop responding to my emails as soon as I mention R-L21? I was wondering about emailing some of them to ask if there was a reason why they appear to dislike this particular SNP.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2010, 06:31:25 AM by Jdean » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2010, 10:31:48 AM »

Jdean writes: "However (and please don't take this the wrong way) despite keenly reading all your posts I have never really understood quite what you are getting at with this Ht35 thing, are there any websites or articles you can point me to that may help me understand a bit better?"

Ht35 is the ancestor of ht15, i.e. R1b1b2a ancestor of all subclades. Your R1b1b2a1b5 derives from R1b1b2a1b (=R-P312+), then you descend from my haplogroup R1b1b2a/L23+/L150+ plus the intermediate haplogroups. My reasoning was that your haplotype, being close to the ht35 one (but also to the Maltese R-P312+), except the due mutations (DYS393 from 12 to 13 etc.), is the most ancient born in Italy or in the Rhine valley and migrated early to the British Isles.
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« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2010, 11:15:47 AM »

Ht35 is the ancestor of ht15, i.e. R1b1b2a ancestor of all subclades. Your R1b1b2a1b5 derives from R1b1b2a1b (=R-P312+), then you descend from my haplogroup R1b1b2a/L23+/L150+ plus the intermediate haplogroups. My reasoning was that your haplotype, being close to the ht35 one (but also to the Maltese R-P312+), except the due mutations (DYS393 from 12 to 13 etc.), is the most ancient born in Italy or in the Rhine valley and migrated early to the British Isles.


So Ht35 is the same as L23 & L49 ?

The problem I have with this is I'm a fair few SNP's downstream of you, most of which have WAMH as a modal, if my haplotype bears a resemblance to Ht35 isn't it more likely that this is convergence rather than ancestral?
« Last Edit: April 07, 2010, 11:19:51 AM by Jdean » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2010, 11:24:37 AM »

Something perhaps is due to convergence, but probably other not. My theory is that markers mutate around the modal and sometime they go for the tangent. I think that your values demonstrate an ancient origin from a Southern R1b1b2a1b. Don't forget that DYS464=15,15,17,17, modal for WAMH, is present also in the Maltese and other Italians or Southern Europeans (I am 14,14,16,17).
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« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2010, 12:25:37 PM »

Something perhaps is due to convergence, but probably other not. My theory is that markers mutate around the modal and sometime they go for the tangent. I think that your values demonstrate an ancient origin from a Southern R1b1b2a1b. Don't forget that DYS464=15,15,17,17, modal for WAMH, is present also in the Maltese and other Italians or Southern Europeans (I am 14,14,16,17).

I have wondered if some values may be more stable than others, or that different values have different mutation rates? but I don't know if any work has been done on anything like that or if it has if it was possible to draw any conclusions.

At the end of the day though my ancestor Gx10^? Granddaddy R-L21 presumably was WAMH, and I can't think what forces would move my DNA in any particular direction other than chance, and I would also presume that chance would be exactly the same if my ancestors were living in Switzerland, England or the North Pole.
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« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2010, 12:35:53 PM »

Certainly your ancestors didn't live in North Pole nor in the Isles when were a North Pole. I think Switzerland is more likely and before, of course, Italy, even though you (and the others like you) don't like it. I have infinite proofs of it ( the last the 17q21 inversion: see Dienekes blog) and the ancient DNA will solve any questions.
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« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2010, 12:38:02 PM »

Is there much P312/S116 going through WTY.  I was kind of hoping new SNPs would sort ths group out.  I know there is a N-S STR based cluster.  It seems to me there was at least two groups.  There is clearly a lot in Iberia and other local clades derived from it.  There is also apparently a lot across central and nothern Europe too.  Tim Jansen calculated that the central European group had a higher variance than the southern S116* groups.  Very hard to make sense of without some more SNPs.  
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« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2010, 12:42:43 PM »

This R1b1b2* sample...Could he be of Phoenician?, or even Egyptian possibly?


What are the chances that a lot of R1b1b2 came with the Phoenician ?

If King Tut is R1b1b2-(?)
Someone suggested he could have distant ties to the Hittites of Turkey.
Between Egypt and Turkey was Phoenicia.

Is there any chance a good deal of Phoenicians of that time were R1b1b2(+plus)??
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« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2010, 01:04:43 PM »

One observation I would make is the strange tendency for S116* to be poorly represented (on project maps) where L21 is high and vice versa.  In Scandinavia there is a distinct divsion between high L21 Norway and high S116* Sweden.  In France the S116* comes to a halt in an almost boundary-like line that cordons off the L21-rich NW corner of France.  In Iberia S116* and its downstream subclades is high.  L21 is very low and what there is is largely on the NE periphery of the penisula.  S116* seems well represented in Italy where L21 is very low.  In Ireland L21 is very high whle S116* is very low.  It seems to me that the only areas where L21 and S116* (and indeed U152 and U106) coexist in a real mix is the Rhineland and adjacent areas. 

To my eye S116* behaves more like U106 than L21 in NW Europe. Again, overall L21 does have a 'first man in' look with real strength in the NW Atlantic peripheries in the isles, France and Scandinavia while S116* looks more eastern in those areas. Despite the L21 SNP being downstream of S116, S116* superficially looks like it overlies L21 in NW Europe. 
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« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2010, 01:23:43 PM »

Certainly your ancestors didn't live in North Pole nor in the Isles when were a North Pole. I think Switzerland is more likely and before, of course, Italy, even though you (and the others like you) don't like it. I have infinite proofs of it ( the last the 17q21 inversion: see Dienekes blog) and the ancient DNA will solve any questions.

Actually I don't have a problem with him coming from any of those places (apart from the North Pole bit of course), clearly L21 moved NW in order to get here. However I don't think it is possible to predict where anybody comes from by looking at there values in isolation of other people with the same haplogroup.

At the moment it looks much more likely that my ancestor came from America, that's where all my matches are, and they’re all brickwalled, does that earn me a visa?
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« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2010, 04:56:08 PM »


. . .

At the moment it looks much more likely that my ancestor came from America, that's where all my matches are, and they’re all brickwalled, does that earn me a visa?


When you get here you're welcome at my house anytime, buddy. We'll even pick you up at the airport!
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« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2010, 05:11:56 PM »

Speaking of Mediterranean lands, we just the other day added a new French R-P312*, Turin (Ysearch GHXKT), whose most distant y-dna ancestor came from the Mediterranean coast east of Marseille, the town of La Seyne sur Mer in Provence.

He is one of those mysterious "R1b North-South Cluster" guys who seem to pop up everywhere, from Spain to France to Scotland, Sweden, the Czech Republic and as far east as Ukraine.
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« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2010, 01:39:07 PM »


. . .

At the moment it looks much more likely that my ancestor came from America, that's where all my matches are, and they’re all brickwalled, does that earn me a visa?


When you get here you're welcome at my house anytime, buddy. We'll even pick you up at the airport!

Thanks for the offer Rich, you never know I may take you up on that one day, though the chances of me taking a trip out of Europe until at least a few of my kids have left home is somewhat remote.

On the other hand if we don't have any better luck finding a WV Sted for my surname project I may have to come over armed with a cheek swab;)
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