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Author Topic: ht35 in West Africa  (Read 805 times)
argiedude
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« on: April 13, 2010, 05:37:06 PM »

I found an R1b1b2-ht35 haplotype from Togo in West Africa:



http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k178/argiedude/ht35inWestAfrica.gif

It has the only 2 values known to be different in R1b1b2-ht35 (southeast Europe, Anatolia) than in R1b1b2-ht15 (West Europe): 393=12 and 461=11. These values, together, occur very rarely in West European R1b1b2, less than 1 in 100 samples.

There are 4 more R1b1b2 samples from West Africa, and 1 of them also has 393=12 (from Ghana). 393=12 occurs in just 3% of British R1b1b2.

It was only possible for me to locate this sample in smgf.org because of its non-West European haplotype. If there are R1b1b2-ht15 samples in West Africa, there's no way I can find them, because smgf.org doesn't allow searching by country, and there must be tens of thousands of R1b1b2-ht15 samples in their database. But from what I've already seen in y-dna studies of West Africa, I would guess there might be another 2 to 4 R1b1b2 samples in their database, and they would all be R1b1b2-ht15.

So, putting all this together, we would have 8 R1b1b2 samples, of which 1 has 393=12 and 1 other has both 393=12 and 461=11. The odds of finding 2 samples such as this in just 8 R1b1b2 samples of British or northwest European origin is low, about 1 in 100. It really calls the attention.

North Africa has the same proportions of ht15 vs. ht35 as these West African samples, but there is virtually no E-M81 and absolutely no J1 in West Africa, and these haplogroups make up 70% of North African y-dna, while they only have about 3% R1b1b2.
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y-dna: R1b L21
mtdna: U5
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2010, 02:17:07 AM »

This haplotype seems a Western European ht35. Given also the surname Barboza, of Portuguese extraction (and Togo wasn't a Portuguese colony, but German one till the WWI, if I remember well), we can hypothesize a German (or Portuguese) origin of this guy. Unfortunately they lack some values, that would be very interesting for doing more precise hypotheses re. its origin.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2010, 05:23:02 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2010, 02:59:49 AM »

After having done a comparison of this haplotype on SMGF I confirm what I said and only with the lacking values I could be more precise. More than  a  Western European haplotype it seems a Pan-European one, probably irradiated with the first expansion. Its origin could be everywhere in Europe, but the presence of many Italians (among others) and from place where firstly Italians irradiated (Rhine Valley to West) and Central Europe to East, Hispania (expansion during the Roman Empire) and the presence of the Anonimous Brasilian who is the closest to me (KV7Y2) I still point to Italy.
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2010, 03:16:32 AM »

I hypothesize that the lacking values will be close to:

DYS391=11
DYS389I-II= 13-29
DYS464= 14,14,16,19
DYS438=12
DYS463=24
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

NealtheRed
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« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2010, 09:05:44 AM »

This is pretty interesting! How can you tell if this DNA  is due to European movement though?
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2010, 10:52:10 AM »

Because, as I have explained (even though the lacking of some values, that I have reconstructed and hypothesized: and when they are published we'll be able to verify my hypotheses), the closest to him are Europeans.
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

argiedude
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« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2010, 04:33:27 PM »

This haplotype seems a Western European ht35. Given also the surname Barboza, of Portuguese extraction (and Togo wasn't a Portuguese colony, but German one till the WWI, if I remember well), we can hypothesize a German (or Portuguese) origin of this guy. Unfortunately they lack some values, that would be very interesting for doing more precise hypotheses re. its origin.

There isn't a West European ht35 haplotype. If the sample were of Portuguese ancestry it would still belong to a pretty rare lineage: ht35 makes up about 2% of Portugal's y-dna. But this sample isn't of Portuguese ancestry because the last name Todzi is the parent of Barboza. Keep in mind there were tons of samples from Benin and Togo who had last names such as Wilson, Thomas, etc.

Because, as I have explained, the closest to him are Europeans.

That's because 27,000 of the samples in smgf.org are of European ancestry. Only 700 are from Anatolia, Caucasus, Iran, Levant, and Iraq.
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y-dna: R1b L21
mtdna: U5
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2010, 12:18:17 AM »

Have you been converted by Vizachero after the recent quarrels?
If it is true what you are saying, that Western European are tested more than others, it is also true that R1b1b2 is in Western Europe more than 10 times more than in the other countries not peopled by Europeans. But the same should be worth for Italy respect the English Isles etc.

Anyway why a son of Totzi was named Barboza?
And Totzi probably doesn't mean anything in Togo, but could be the Italian Tozzi. Why not?

I have done an examination of the markers' values and about them I think you should reply.
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

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