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alan trowel hands.
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« on: April 05, 2010, 06:53:20 PM »

Seems that WTY has not delivered the sort of handy SNP that is only a little younger than L21 and therefore splits it in half. I may be wrong but I get the impression that the new SNPs downstream of L21 are much younger.  Any comments on this?
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rms2
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« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2010, 07:02:14 PM »

Seems that WTY has not delivered the sort of handy SNP that is only a little younger than L21 and therefore splits it in half. I may be wrong but I get the impression that the new SNPs downstream of L21 are much younger.  Any comments on this?

That's my impression, too.
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Jdean
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« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2010, 07:18:52 PM »

Yep, unfortunately so and I suspect that will be the case from here on in.

You certainly get the impression that P312 & L21 spread across Northern Europe like tsunamis
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 07:23:34 PM by Jdean » Logged

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OConnor
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« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2010, 08:17:42 PM »

R-L159.2 is found in Scotland Ireland, Wales England and German/French border.


Could R-L159.2 be as little as 100 years from it's parent R-L21 ?

I am 47/67 with some R-L159.2 males. Some are 43and 44/67
Some have the 464x=CCgg...I have the L21 model CCCg.
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Jdean
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« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2010, 08:36:37 PM »

Don't know but I doubt it.

However it's definitely interesting and one of the success stories of the WTY experiment.
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« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2010, 11:28:16 PM »

R-L159.2 is found in Scotland Ireland, Wales England and German/French border.
Could R-L159.2 be as little as 100 years from it's parent R-L21 ?

I am 47/67 with some R-L159.2 males. Some are 43and 44/67. Some have the 464x=CCgg...I have the L21 model CCCg.
I think it is possible that R-L159.2 is quite old because the genetic distances are great for a few outside the primary Lienster/Irish Sea folks.  However, I'm also nervous about the stability of L159.2.
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rms2
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« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2010, 07:35:24 AM »

I hate to sound a sour note, but I have my reservations about L159.2. Thomas Krahn mentioned its instability and the fact that it has occurred in at least two separate haplogroups. Last I looked, it had not yet made it onto ISOGG's 2010 R Tree, and ISOGG is usually pretty quick to recognize newly discovered SNPs. Note that L226 and L193 are there already.

I don't want to make the L159.2+ guys mad at me, but an unstable SNP (or a cross between an SNP and an STR as L159 seems to be) could have occurred more than once independently in the same haplogroup or subclade, meaning it might not signify descent from a common ancestor for all those who are derived for it.

I am kind of sorry I created a category for it on the Y-DNA Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project without at least waiting for ISOGG to add it to its tree. That will be my new policy, though, to wait until at least ISOGG puts an SNP on its R Tree before creating a separate category for it.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 07:40:16 AM by rms2 » Logged

NealtheRed
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« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2010, 08:19:36 AM »

Rich,

I don't fault you for disregarding L159's status as a legitimate indicator of shared ancestry. It makes sense that those who are not part of the cluster don't care much about it.

I e-mailed Vince Vizachero about L159 and ISOGG, etc. via Alice Fairhurst, since she helped me recruit the Matheson match for the project. I like what he said about it: we have to wait to see how L159 is distributed before we can draw any conclusions. Vince did not say anything negative about it, and was objective in his response.

I don't want this stuff to get political because I will just shy away from this hobby. I am not in this for personal recognition in the genetic community. But maybe that is an unstated objective - put a nail in the coffin of L159, and wipe the hands clean. It's our SNP, or else! That's not how 464X and L159 project members feel about it... but I digress.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 08:22:29 AM by NealtheRed » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2010, 08:26:28 AM »


However it's definitely interesting and one of the success stories of the WTY experiment.


Meh.
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« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2010, 11:02:11 AM »

I don't think that we have found anything that is clear major divider of R-L21*, but we are whittling away some chunks...  M222+ was known, but L226+ and L193+ are helping.   I actually think L159.2+ has a chance of being very, very old since they have some true outlier haplotypes... however, that is also a problem.  How do we know the outliers are really L159.3+, just another clade???

I do think the SNP discovery work is a bit of a crapshoot.  My understanding is that a Walk the Y only hits a small piece of the potential SNP's.

On the other hand, don't give up on better understanding our clusters.  As we can now clearly see, Irish Type III was real - now marked by L226+.   However, short haplotypes won't cut it.   We need everyone to go to 67 markers.. and that might not be enough, just a minimum.
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rms2
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« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2010, 12:43:36 PM »

Rich,

I don't fault you for disregarding L159's status as a legitimate indicator of shared ancestry. It makes sense that those who are not part of the cluster don't care much about it.

I e-mailed Vince Vizachero about L159 and ISOGG, etc. via Alice Fairhurst, since she helped me recruit the Matheson match for the project. I like what he said about it: we have to wait to see how L159 is distributed before we can draw any conclusions. Vince did not say anything negative about it, and was objective in his response.

I don't want this stuff to get political because I will just shy away from this hobby. I am not in this for personal recognition in the genetic community. But maybe that is an unstated objective - put a nail in the coffin of L159, and wipe the hands clean. It's our SNP, or else! That's not how 464X and L159 project members feel about it... but I digress.

I'm not sure I understand your post.

I have no "political" stake in any SNP. I just have concerns about L159 and I said what they were above. I certainly have no interest in nailing any coffins or opening any, one way or the other.

If L159 were as solid as L226 or L193, it would be on ISOGG's tree already. That it is not, I think shows that there are some concerns there.

That's all there is to it.

I would be happy for it to be a good, solid SNP. Heck, I created a category for it when I first heard about it.

It's just that I have my doubts, and that's it. No "hidden agenda", no "politics", no "coffins".
« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 12:46:59 PM by rms2 » Logged

alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2010, 05:26:09 PM »

So, the WTY technique could be missing SNPs?  Makes sense to me because its hard to believe there were all these SNP dated to about the same time c. 4000 years ago plus or minus a couple of centuries (P310, U152, S116. L21 ad U152) then NOTHING until the historic period 2-3000 thousand years later (and even then mainly in the isles).  Maybe I am missing someting here and its to do with demographics.  Perhaps SNPs rarely are more than private and only grow unless there is some truly exceptional demographic phase or force that multiplies it up.  

As regards STR based clusters, my feeling is that we are missing most of the continental ones simply down to sample size. A place like France or Germany would only have a small fraction of the numbers tested for L21 compared to the isles. If there is only a 5-10% of the L21 sample size tested to 67 markers in any given continental counry compared to Britain then I suppose we should contemplate how many possible L21 subclusters in the isles would still be visible if 90-95% of the sample was removed. That is essentially what we are looking at in terms of continental sample. I would guess that all but the very biggest possible L21 clusters in the isles would disappear or only be represented by a couple of people at best.  Maybe only the NW Irish cluster would remain. Not sure if this is an exageration of the sample problem.     I wonder too if the sample is not so small that its hidng membership of 'isles' clades on the continent, perhaps even making continental originated clusters look like isles ones. 
« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 05:31:44 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
GoldenHind
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« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2010, 05:30:15 PM »

I hate to sound a sour note, but I have my reservations about L159.2. Thomas Krahn mentioned its instability and the fact that it has occurred in at least two separate haplogroups. Last I looked, it had not yet made it onto ISOGG's 2010 R Tree, and ISOGG is usually pretty quick to recognize newly discovered SNPs. Note that L226 and L193 are there already.

I don't want to make the L159.2+ guys mad at me, but an unstable SNP (or a cross between an SNP and an STR as L159 seems to be) could have occurred more than once independently in the same haplogroup or subclade, meaning it might not signify descent from a common ancestor for all those who are derived for it.

I am kind of sorry I created a category for it on the Y-DNA Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project without at least waiting for ISOGG to add it to its tree. That will be my new policy, though, to wait until at least ISOGG puts an SNP on its R Tree before creating a separate category for it.
Much of what you say also applies to L176.2. However it looks like it might be found in everyone who is SRY2627 as well as those who are L165/S68.
I wouldn't close the door on it yet. Only time will tell.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2010, 05:46:34 PM »

I think it comes clearer and clearer that if this science is to continue be hobby driven successfully, the most important challenge is gong to be to attract a far higher amount of interest from people of non-isles European descent.  They must be far poorer represented in this hobby than their actual percentage contribution to the population of north America would suggest.  Somehow that needs to be overcome or else we will continue to have a very odd view of things seen from the isles which was pretty well the end of the European trail for most of the population movements that reached them.  Clearly seeing the end of the trail so clearly and the rest so dimly is a major problem.  What are the main reasons for this?
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Jdean
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« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2010, 06:40:26 PM »

I think it comes clearer and clearer that if this science is to continue be hobby driven successfully, the most important challenge is gong to be to attract a far higher amount of interest from people of non-isles European descent.  They must be far poorer represented in this hobby than their actual percentage contribution to the population of north America would suggest.  Somehow that needs to be overcome or else we will continue to have a very odd view of things seen from the isles which was pretty well the end of the European trail for most of the population movements that reached them.  Clearly seeing the end of the trail so clearly and the rest so dimly is a major problem.  What are the main reasons for this?

I've asked this same question a few times.

The received wisdom seems to be that DNA testing is most popular in USA citizens who are brickwalled, and that most of these are of Isle descent.

However there is also a notion that European citizens don't see the advantages of DNA testing as they can normally prove there ancestry back a good way via paper trails, in fact this is not as likely as some people may think and I know of a few people off hand who have are British or are reasonably resent emigrants who have used DNA successfully.

However these are all Isle descendants, and in my case it is only because of the popularity of DNA testing amongst brickwalled Americans that I have obtained matches. No person with my name from my area has decided to get involved with this hobby, so it is unfortunately a bit of a viscous circle.


« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 07:20:40 PM by Jdean » Logged

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NealtheRed
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« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2010, 08:40:43 PM »

Rich,

I don't fault you for disregarding L159's status as a legitimate indicator of shared ancestry. It makes sense that those who are not part of the cluster don't care much about it.

I e-mailed Vince Vizachero about L159 and ISOGG, etc. via Alice Fairhurst, since she helped me recruit the Matheson match for the project. I like what he said about it: we have to wait to see how L159 is distributed before we can draw any conclusions. Vince did not say anything negative about it, and was objective in his response.

I don't want this stuff to get political because I will just shy away from this hobby. I am not in this for personal recognition in the genetic community. But maybe that is an unstated objective - put a nail in the coffin of L159, and wipe the hands clean. It's our SNP, or else! That's not how 464X and L159 project members feel about it... but I digress.

I'm not sure I understand your post.

I have no "political" stake in any SNP. I just have concerns about L159 and I said what they were above. I certainly have no interest in nailing any coffins or opening any, one way or the other.

If L159 were as solid as L226 or L193, it would be on ISOGG's tree already. That it is not, I think shows that there are some concerns there.

That's all there is to it.

I would be happy for it to be a good, solid SNP. Heck, I created a category for it when I first heard about it.

It's just that I have my doubts, and that's it. No "hidden agenda", no "politics", no "coffins".

I know you don't have an agenda, but is a bit disconcerting because JDean is right: being brick-walled in the States is why we're all doing this. It's just that right when I think I am onto something, it is like, "Sorry, son, you got it wrong".

Then there is the other side of the coin, deep ancestry. That stuff is cool to anybody, I think.
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rms2
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« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2010, 08:50:19 PM »



I know you don't have an agenda, but is a bit disconcerting because JDean is right: being brick-walled in the States is why we're all doing this. It's just that right when I think I am onto something, it is like, "Sorry, son, you got it wrong".

Then there is the other side of the coin, deep ancestry. That stuff is cool to anybody, I think.

I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade. It is just that I would be less than honest if I didn't say I have my doubts about L159. It may be a great marker for a limited set like those who are ccgg at 464 and have the Leinster haplotype. But it may not be firm enough to enable us to say that even all guys within L21 who are L159.2+ necessarily descend from the same L159.2 ancestor.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2010, 10:16:12 PM »

I have no doubt many Americans with brick walled ancestry are drawn to the hobby. Most of these will have ancestors in colonial times, when record keeping was problematic, and most of the colonial immigrants came from Britain.
That doesn't apply to all of us, however. I know precisely where each of my great grandparents came from, and only one of the eight was born in America. Of the remaining seven, three were born in Engalnd, three in Denmark and one in Sweden. That in no way diminishes my interest in the hobby.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2010, 12:25:41 AM »

I have no doubt many Americans with brick walled ancestry are drawn to the hobby. Most of these will have ancestors in colonial times, when record keeping was problematic, and most of the colonial immigrants came from Britain.
That doesn't apply to all of us, however. I know precisely where each of my great grandparents came from, and only one of the eight was born in America. Of the remaining seven, three were born in Engalnd, three in Denmark and one in Sweden. That in no way diminishes my interest in the hobby.

Yeah, I should rephrase it because you're right, not everyone came over via the Aberdeen Express.
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vtilroe
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« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2010, 03:13:11 AM »

So, the WTY technique could be missing SNPs?  [...]

Absolutely.  The latest NCBI build of the Homo Sapiens reference genome has the Y-chromosome pegged at just over 60,000,000 nucleotide base pairs in length.  Only about 23,000,000 of those have actually been successfully sequenced and identified.

The current WTY program sequences about 100,000 unique nucleotide base pairs (on average) using existing primers stocked by FTDNA.   Simple arithmetic: 100,000/23,000,000 => 0.4% (less than one-half of one percent) coverage of the known Y-chromosome.   There's a lot of territory we haven't looked at yet.
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« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2012, 09:33:09 AM »

Seems that WTY has not delivered the sort of handy SNP that is only a little younger than L21 and therefore splits it in half. I may be wrong but I get the impression that the new SNPs downstream of L21 are much younger.  Any comments on this?

We are now starting to see some of the older SNPs under L21. See http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/

DF21, L513(DF1), DF23, Z253 all appeared to be over two thousand years old, perhaps significantly.  Now we've found DF49 older than DF23 and DF13 older than (ancestor to) of all of these.

The early appearance of young subclades was just a matter of the chance of discovery. Our coverage of the Y chromosome is still very limited so more is coming.
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