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Author Topic: A germanic angle to the expansion of U152??  (Read 4964 times)
aktiva
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« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2011, 07:48:17 PM »

In response to your posting: might I also suggest that the Franks show something interesting related to U152 as well.

The Franks werent Germans...(your usual U106 group) not originally: but Celts out of the Alps around Vienna: (and of course go back southwards towards Anatolia even earlier)

Many of the Hotspots you refer to are actually regions the Franks conquered: or took from the Belgic Celts......especially Belgium, Ardennes, Picardy and Calais.

Now for sure: typical Belgic Celt DNA types still do dominate these regions;
but unique Flemish groups (Flemings a later manifestation of Franks) are showing identifying markers and are primarily U152s

Wherever the Franks showed migration
and settlement: we find a hotspot of U152s......

especially in the French Flemish zones.

We further know they participated in fairly large numbers in the Norman Invasion into England: and took noble roles and titles in smaller numbers: and again: we find some of these surnames to be U152

In the case of my own ancestor: a Frenchman:
his DNA shows a strong affinity to the Counts of Flanders group: related to the Kings of the Franks: which is also U152

Just thought I would add this insight to the general discussion of U152
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rms2
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« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2011, 07:59:55 PM »

I'm not disagreeing with everything you posted, but the Franks were a confederation of earlier Germanic tribes, as were so many of the tribes who took part in the Völkerwanderung.

One can see the difference in the Germanic tribal lists from earlier Roman works, like Tacitus' Germania, and the names of the tribes that took advantage of the Roman decline. There was a great deal of shifting and realignment.

It isn't likely the Franks came out of the Alps around Vienna.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2011, 08:03:25 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2011, 11:33:07 PM »

... We further know they participated in fairly large numbers in the Norman Invasion into England: and took noble roles and titles in smaller numbers: and again: we find some of these surnames to be U152 ..
How do you know that U152 played a prominent role in the Norman Invasion of England? If you give me a list of common surnames, I can probably find most haplogroups represented in some way or another.
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rms2
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« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2011, 07:58:06 PM »

... We further know they participated in fairly large numbers in the Norman Invasion into England: and took noble roles and titles in smaller numbers: and again: we find some of these surnames to be U152 ..
How do you know that U152 played a prominent role in the Norman Invasion of England? If you give me a list of common surnames, I can probably find most haplogroups represented in some way or another.

I think he might have meant that there were Flemish knights in the service of William the Conqueror at Hastings.

I haven't seen any indication that Flanders is a U152 hotspot, but I could be wrong about that.
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ambennett
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« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2012, 08:45:03 PM »

I am having trouble understanding the talk here but find it interesting. I took genetics in college 25+ years ago so I am so behind. I recently had my husband tested
he came back  R1b1a2a1a1b3. His male family line is Bennett. The earliest relative I can find was born in 1813 in Ireland. So I get back a message that his ancestor is Francisco Corsi a Jesuit Priest from Spain 1750. I am totally confused by this information. Can anyone have pity on a uneducated genealogist and explain what all of this means. Thanks in advance. I would be happy to read any long lengthy explanation. 
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2012, 10:34:15 PM »

I am having trouble understanding the talk here but find it interesting. I took genetics in college 25+ years ago so I am so behind. I recently had my husband tested
he came back  R1b1a2a1a1b3. His male family line is Bennett. The earliest relative I can find was born in 1813 in Ireland. So I get back a message that his ancestor is Francisco Corsi a Jesuit Priest from Spain 1750. I am totally confused by this information. Can anyone have pity on a uneducated genealogist and explain what all of this means. Thanks in advance. I would be happy to read any long lengthy explanation. 

Did you husband test with Family Tree DNA? If so, can you share your husband's kit number with us?
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2012, 12:34:28 AM »

There is a Corsi on the U152 spreadsheet from Spain, but I have always said that the surname is Italian. If he was a gesuit and had some sons, he was certainly an Italian.

P.S. Then not an Irish monk, but an Italian one!
« Last Edit: March 28, 2012, 08:09:01 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2012, 08:18:44 AM »

This is the haplotype:


N47976 Francisco Corsi, Santander, España, 1750 (Spain) Spain R1b1a2a1a1b3
13 24 14 11 11-19 12 12 12 13 13 30 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 14-15-17-18 11 11 19-23 15 15 17 16 39-40 12 13 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 14 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 14 11
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« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2012, 08:42:21 AM »

N47976 Francisco Corsi, Santander, España, 1750 ...
This is Cantabria I believe. U152 and L21 have a commonality in Spain, I think. They are generally restricted to the Pyrenees area.  Anyone disagree?
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samIsaack
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« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2012, 09:02:30 AM »

N47976 Francisco Corsi, Santander, España, 1750 ...
This is Cantabria I believe. U152 and L21 have a commonality in Spain, I think. They are generally restricted to the Pyrenees area.  Anyone disagree?

Kind of like SRY2627.. makes ya wonder.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #35 on: March 28, 2012, 11:39:37 AM »

Kind of like SRY2627.. makes ya wonder.
N47976   Francisco Corsi, Santander, España, 1750 (Spain)   R1b1a2a1a1b3    R-U152   L157.2-, L2-, L4-, M126-, M153-, M160-, M173+, M18-, M207+, M222-, M269+, M343+, M37-, M65-, M73-, P107-, P25+, P66-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152+, U198-, Z56+

His DYS492=14 was enough, but these are his SNPs.

It would be interesting to know if this Bennett is the same or another tested. Unfortunately the forums are plenty of pest.
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« Reply #36 on: March 28, 2012, 12:15:37 PM »

Actually there is a Bennett on ySearch (7EUYA) who matches Corsi in the first 12 markers, but these differences in other markers make me exclude they are linked in these 2 or 3 thousand years:
DYS459b=9
DYS454=12
DYS448=20
DYS449=28
DYS464=15-15-16-17
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2012, 12:26:49 PM »

Of course Corsi and Bennett are two marvellous examples of mutations around the modal, of convergence to the modal as time passes and of mutations for the tangent, my 3 golden principles. It will be interesting the SNPs test of Bennett. His DYS385b=19 would make us think to a R-Z56+.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #38 on: March 28, 2012, 12:45:41 PM »

Actually Bennett matches closely Rogers (3GZPH) who is R-L21+ and has DYS385b=14. We should think to a multistep mutation of Bennett. Also Judd (CKGVB) is R-L21+ and has DYS385b=17.
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Maliclavelli


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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #39 on: March 28, 2012, 01:47:36 PM »

N47976 Francisco Corsi, Santander, España, 1750 ...
This is Cantabria I believe. U152 and L21 have a commonality in Spain, I think. They are generally restricted to the Pyrenees area.  Anyone disagree?

U152 and L21 seem to be mirror opposites in Iberia. When found, U152 is more common along the shores of the Mediterranean from southern Portugal all the way around to Catalonia. U152 is virtually non-existent along the Atlantic coast, which of course is the higher area of L21.

The one similarity I do see between U152 and L21 in Iberia is that neither are found in overwhelming numbers.

Interestingly for U152, almost all Iberian U152 samples are L2- and the only samples which are L2+ are in Catalonia. L2 frequency within U152 seems to peak in France and the Low Countries and declines as one goes south (Italy and Spain). Interestingly Sicily reverses the trend with most Sicilian U152 being L2+.

If I remember correctly, there was a thread specifically about Iberian L21, but I can't remember why it seemed distinct.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2012, 01:55:43 PM by Richard Rocca » Logged

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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #40 on: March 28, 2012, 03:49:03 PM »

When found, U152 is more common along the shores of the Mediterranean from southern Portugal all the way around to Catalonia.
These are the places where happened the colonization of the Italian agriculturalists via sea 7500YBP, but this would mean that that colonization didn't expand to other places of the Iberian Peninsula or that they had other colonization from North. It seemed that R-L21 could expand from Iberia to North, but R-L153 and R-L176 would seem having been come from North from the last data.
Anyway Corsi is of Italian extraction and this Bennett is an R-L21 of Irish origin.
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« Reply #41 on: March 28, 2012, 04:35:09 PM »

U152 and L21 seem to be mirror opposites in Iberia. When found, U152 is more common along the shores of the Mediterranean from southern Portugal all the way around to Catalonia. U152 is virtually non-existent along the Atlantic coast, which of course is the higher area of L21.

The one similarity I do see between U152 and L21 in Iberia is that neither are found in overwhelming numbers.
being L2+....
Where are you seeing that L21 is of high frequency along the Iberian Atlantic Coast?
I didn't think we had that much detail from Busby.
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #42 on: March 28, 2012, 05:00:40 PM »

U152 and L21 seem to be mirror opposites in Iberia. When found, U152 is more common along the shores of the Mediterranean from southern Portugal all the way around to Catalonia. U152 is virtually non-existent along the Atlantic coast, which of course is the higher area of L21.

The one similarity I do see between U152 and L21 in Iberia is that neither are found in overwhelming numbers.
being L2+....
Where are you seeing that L21 is of high frequency along the Iberian Atlantic Coast?
I didn't think we had that much detail from Busby.

You are right Mike, I was just basing the L21 distribution from the FTDNA project where it appears primarily in NW Iberia. More than likely this is sampling bias as most Latin Americans who know their Spanish roots are from turn of the century migrations that came primarily from the NW. So much so, that in Argentina, all Spaniards are known as "Gallegos" (Gallicians) regardless of the region the came from.
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« Reply #43 on: March 28, 2012, 05:58:25 PM »

U152 and L21 seem to be mirror opposites in Iberia. When found, U152 is more common along the shores of the Mediterranean from southern Portugal all the way around to Catalonia. U152 is virtually non-existent along the Atlantic coast, which of course is the higher area of L21.

The one similarity I do see between U152 and L21 in Iberia is that neither are found in overwhelming numbers.
being L2+....
Where are you seeing that L21 is of high frequency along the Iberian Atlantic Coast?
I didn't think we had that much detail from Busby.

You are right Mike, I was just basing the L21 distribution from the FTDNA project where it appears primarily in NW Iberia. More than likely this is sampling bias as most Latin Americans who know their Spanish roots are from turn of the century migrations that came primarily from the NW. So much so, that in Argentina, all Spaniards are known as "Gallegos" (Gallicians) regardless of the region the came from.

As far as I recall the real peak of L21 in Iberia i is well to the east of Galicia, in the Pyrenees area. 
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #44 on: March 28, 2012, 08:20:05 PM »

U152 and L21 seem to be mirror opposites in Iberia. When found, U152 is more common along the shores of the Mediterranean from southern Portugal all the way around to Catalonia. U152 is virtually non-existent along the Atlantic coast, which of course is the higher area of L21.

The one similarity I do see between U152 and L21 in Iberia is that neither are found in overwhelming numbers.
being L2+....
Where are you seeing that L21 is of high frequency along the Iberian Atlantic Coast?
I didn't think we had that much detail from Busby.

You are right Mike, I was just basing the L21 distribution from the FTDNA project where it appears primarily in NW Iberia. More than likely this is sampling bias as most Latin Americans who know their Spanish roots are from turn of the century migrations that came primarily from the NW. So much so, that in Argentina, all Spaniards are known as "Gallegos" (Gallicians) regardless of the region the came from.

As far as I recall the real peak of L21 in Iberia i is well to the east of Galicia, in the Pyrenees area.  

You are right. I just checked the Martínez-Cruz Basque paper and it has some very high L21 frequency in the following areas:

27.3%   Lapurdi/Baztan
22.8%   SouthWestern Gipuzkoa
21.6%   Araba
20.8%   Roncal and Salazar valleys
« Last Edit: March 28, 2012, 08:22:03 PM by Richard Rocca » Logged

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« Reply #45 on: March 29, 2012, 04:25:31 PM »

As far as I recall the real peak of L21 in Iberia i is well to the east of Galicia, in the Pyrenees area.  
You are right. I just checked the Martínez-Cruz Basque paper and it has some very high L21 frequency in the following areas:

27.3%   Lapurdi/Baztan
22.8%   SouthWestern Gipuzkoa
21.6%   Araba
20.8%   Roncal and Salazar valleys
How does L21's dispersion in Iberia align (or not align) with U152's in the Pyrenees?
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« Reply #46 on: March 29, 2012, 04:31:36 PM »

As far as I recall the real peak of L21 in Iberia i is well to the east of Galicia, in the Pyrenees area.  
You are right. I just checked the Martínez-Cruz Basque paper and it has some very high L21 frequency in the following areas:

27.3%   Lapurdi/Baztan
22.8%   SouthWestern Gipuzkoa
21.6%   Araba
20.8%   Roncal and Salazar valleys
How does L21's dispersion in Iberia align (or not align) with U152's in the Pyrenees?

That is the area of biggest divergence - U152 only averages around 2%-4% in those same areas.
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« Reply #47 on: March 29, 2012, 05:48:22 PM »

Seems that L21 was a major player from the Bay of Biscay northwards along the Atlantic coasts.  Seems L21 lineages were powerful in terms of naval strength to me.  Seems L21 is strong wherever the area is most accessible by boat.  A lot about the emerging distribution of L21 seems to be pointing in the direction that L21 ruled the waves of the Atlantic.  It would be interesting to see a similar detailed clade survey for Galicia as it was another nodal point on the Atlantic routes.  However, to date I have not seen any evidence that it is huge there.  Maybe its just a lack of study.   
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« Reply #48 on: March 29, 2012, 06:02:56 PM »

As far as I recall the real peak of L21 in Iberia i is well to the east of Galicia, in the Pyrenees area.  
You are right. I just checked the Martínez-Cruz Basque paper and it has some very high L21 frequency in the following areas:

27.3%   Lapurdi/Baztan
22.8%   SouthWestern Gipuzkoa
21.6%   Araba
20.8%   Roncal and Salazar valleys
How does L21's dispersion in Iberia align (or not align) with U152's in the Pyrenees?

That is the area of biggest divergence - U152 only averages around 2%-4% in those same areas.

What regions of Iberia have 5% or above U152 if any?
« Last Edit: March 29, 2012, 06:03:12 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #49 on: March 29, 2012, 06:46:05 PM »

In response to your posting: might I also suggest that the Franks show something interesting related to U152 as well.

The Franks werent Germans...(your usual U106 group) not originally: but Celts out of the Alps around Vienna: (and of course go back southwards towards Anatolia even earlier)

Many of the Hotspots you refer to are actually regions the Franks conquered: or took from the Belgic Celts......especially Belgium, Ardennes, Picardy and Calais.

Now for sure: typical Belgic Celt DNA types still do dominate these regions;
but unique Flemish groups (Flemings a later manifestation of Franks) are showing identifying markers and are primarily U152s

Wherever the Franks showed migration
and settlement: we find a hotspot of U152s......

especially in the French Flemish zones.

We further know they participated in fairly large numbers in the Norman Invasion into England: and took noble roles and titles in smaller numbers: and again: we find some of these surnames to be U152

In the case of my own ancestor: a Frenchman:
his DNA shows a strong affinity to the Counts of Flanders group: related to the Kings of the Franks: which is also U152

Just thought I would add this insight to the general discussion of U152


I think the Franks are an interesting case and merit a detailed study.. When the Franks were converted to Christianity by Irish monks it set the stage for the 1,000 year Holy Roman Empire.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiberno-Scottish_mission

Charlemagne and his decendants have a well documented genealogy as do his ancestors the Merovingians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlemagne
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merovingians

I visited Aachen Cathedral  to view the great man's tomb. Unfortunately his "giant" skeleton is taken out on rare occasions and unlikely to be DNA tested. I wonder if the Franks represent the U152 River Celts who migrated via the river route from Anatolia, as opposed to the L21 Maritine Celts who migrated via the Atlantic facade.

"Charlemagne's personal appearance is known from a good description by a personal associate, Einhard, author after his death of the biography Vita Karoli Magni. Einhard tells in his twenty-second chapter:[19]
"He was heavily built, sturdy, and of considerable stature, although not exceptionally so, since his height was seven times the length of his own foot. He had a round head, large and lively eyes, a slightly larger nose than usual, white but still attractive hair, a bright and cheerful expression, a short and fat neck, and he enjoyed good health, except for the fevers that affected him in the last few years of his life. Toward the end, he dragged one leg. Even then, he stubbornly did what he wanted and refused to listen to doctors, indeed he detested them, because they wanted to persuade him to stop eating roast meat, as was his wont, and to be content with boiled meat."
The physical portrait provided by Einhard is confirmed by contemporary depictions of the emperor, such as coins and his 8-inch (20 cm) bronze statue kept in the Louvre. In 1861, Charlemagne's tomb was opened by scientists who reconstructed his skeleton and estimated it to be measured 74.9 in (190 cm).[20] An estimate of his height from an X-ray and CT Scan of his tibia performed in 2010 is 1.84 m (72 in). This puts him in the 99th percentile of tall people of his period, given that average male height of his time was 1.69 m (67 in). The width of the bone suggested he was gracile but not robust in body build."
« Last Edit: March 29, 2012, 07:16:23 PM by Heber » Logged

Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



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