World Families Forums - boundaries of main L21 block

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
December 22, 2014, 11:18:16 AM
Home Help Search Login Register

+  World Families Forums
|-+  General Forums - Note: You must Be Logged In to post. Anyone can browse.
| |-+  R1b General (Moderator: rms2)
| | |-+  boundaries of main L21 block
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 Go Down Print
Author Topic: boundaries of main L21 block  (Read 2411 times)
alan trowel hands.
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2012


« on: March 09, 2010, 07:22:48 AM »

I think despite the sampling issues, remarkable progress has been made on defining the main block of L21 i.e. the area where it has more than a wafer-thin presence. The NW edge is clearly as far as land goes in that direction, the sudden drop off south-west of the extreme NE of Iberia suggests strongly that that area is the south-western border.  Likewise the Alps seem to be the southern border judging by the Italian evidence.  Given the (relatively) good testing in Iberia and Italy I think this picture is on pretty solid ground despite the non-systematic nature of testing.  Only the eastern (south-east and east-central) edge of the block remains vague.  Also, clearly a lot of the detail needs fleshed out.  However, it is interesing how at least a significant part of the big picture can be inferred from hobby driven testing. 
Logged
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2010, 09:03:21 PM »

Actually, the paucity of L21 in Italy thus far has surprised me. I expected more, and perhaps more will come.

I wonder how many Deep Clade tests are being done these days and how many Italians are ordering them.

My feeling is that if I had not doggedly pursued French recruiting (which I am still doing, by the way), and had it not been for the generous donations of our members so that we could sponsor some continental testing, we would still be in the dark about L21, and probably just about everyone would be thinking it was mainly a British Isles and especially an Irish thing.

It's also a good thing that the French Heritage Project exists and that its admin, Doug Miller, is such a good guy.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 09:05:35 PM by rms2 » Logged

alan trowel hands.
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2012


« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2010, 09:26:18 PM »

I always had a hunch France (as the country closest linked to the isles in prehistory) would contain the L21 continrntal 'mother-load'.  Other than SW Germany, which geographcally attaches to France more than it does to Germany there is simply no hint of a similar level anywhere else.  To me L21 distribution bears some hallmarks of dilution from U152 and U106 overlaying from the east.  I get that impression on the continent and also in the British Isles.  It is possible that these difference always existed from the start but I do get the feeling of an overlay.  

It is interesting that the French evidence seems to indicate that U152 dominance was only in the east of 'Gaul'.  We knew it was big in Swtzerland and south Germany and now we also know it was dominant on the fringe close to south-Germany.  However, we also now know that its dominance did not extend across much of the rest of Gaul.  Its dominance seems to have been in the south-eastern parts of Gaul with L21. S116* dominating to the north and west (at least in Celtica). They probably overlapped greatly but perhaps at the extremes did not to a great degree.  That could explain why Celtic invasions to Italy didnt seem to bring much L21 while movements to the isles brought a great deal.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 09:26:51 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2010, 09:33:14 PM »

Well, it was your hunch, as expressed in some of your early Rootsweb posts, and in some of our email exchanges, that inspired me to work hard to recruit some men of French ancestry for testing. The results have been better than I thought they would be.

Like you, I am still curious about the East. I'd like to test more Czechs, for example, but I am a bit afraid of getting a poorer return on investment than what we get in France. I'm pretty sure there is a fair amount of L21+ in the Czech Republic, but we would probably have to endure a greater proportion of negatives to positives than we do in France, and that would be demoralizing.
Logged

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2158


« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2010, 02:52:51 AM »

Rich writes: “Actually, the paucity of L21 in Italy thus far has surprised me. I expected more, and perhaps more will come”. “Perhaps”, but science hasn’t done by “perhaps”.

I invite you to remember always my theories, that date from many years:1) an ancient people, like Italians are, is formed by its more ancient nucleus: a few immigrants during the time are erased. Where are all the millions of slaves from everywhere? Where Goths, Lombards, Normans (perhaps Vizachero and a few others)? Where the Gauls, which weren’t the previous Italo-Celtics? Only now, with this massive immigration, Italy is risking to lose its identity, but you know that in history an action claims always a reaction. 2) Why R-U152 has the distribution Alan has pointed out? Because they were there (and above all here, in Italy) from very ancient times, before someone has spoken a Celtic language. 3) I remember you all that Italy has, probably from many thousands of years, R1b1*, R1b1/V35, R1b1/M18, (then probably R-V7: only one sample isn’t worth for ISOGG, and R-V88), R-M269, R-L23+/L150-, R-L150+ (me) etc. That  these haplotypes are overall in Italy at 5% demonstrates, I think, against all my enemies (and of Italy), that they are ancient, very ancient, and not due to a supposed immigration (and recently, as  a second one after their subclades) from East.

I am waiting, and we all I hope, that aDNA answers for ever this question.
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

vineviz
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 191


« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2010, 09:08:23 AM »

Actually, the paucity of L21 in Italy thus far has surprised me. I expected more, and perhaps more will come.

I wonder how many Deep Clade tests are being done these days and how many Italians are ordering them.

The pace of DeepClade testing in Italy has been slow lately, but with more than 40 R-M269 Italians in the FTDNA project deep tested already, and just one R-L21 I think there is no chance that the overall level of R-L21 could be over 5%.

VV
Logged
alan trowel hands.
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2012


« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2010, 07:05:01 PM »

I would put 5% (as a percentage of R1b12) outside the 'main block'.  I think there is every chance that in France it will be at least 7 ot 8 times that and even n SW Germany It seems to me that it would be at least 5 or 6 times that.  In general I think a few % doesnt tell us much given the amount of mobility of people in the last 2000 years.  There will be a few % of most clades everywhere. 
Logged
vineviz
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 191


« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2010, 07:09:22 PM »

I would put 5% (as a percentage of R1b12) outside the 'main block'.  I think there is every chance that in France it will be at least 7 ot 8 times that and even n SW Germany It seems to me that it would be at least 5 or 6 times that.  In general I think a few % doesnt tell us much given the amount of mobility of people in the last 2000 years.  There will be a few % of most clades everywhere. 

I agree.
Logged
Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2158


« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2010, 09:28:55 AM »

Alan, if you were referring to R-L21 I too agree (in Italy I think it will be much less than that, probably less than 1%), but if you were referring to R-ht35 in Italy (and that Vizachero did agree is suspect) I can say that Italy  has 60% over the world of R1b1* (Cruciani 2010), 100% of R1b1b2a-L150-, and that R-ht35 is 5% (I have no data for saying  if of hg. R or of the whole Y) overall in Italy I think it means an ancient presence and not a recent introgression.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2010, 09:48:15 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

alan trowel hands.
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2012


« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2010, 02:31:20 PM »

Alan, if you were referring to R-L21 I too agree (in Italy I think it will be much less than that, probably less than 1%), but if you were referring to R-ht35 in Italy (and that Vizachero did agree is suspect) I can say that Italy  has 60% over the world of R1b1* (Cruciani 2010), 100% of R1b1b2a-L150-, and that R-ht35 is 5% (I have no data for saying  if of hg. R or of the whole Y) overall in Italy I think it means an ancient presence and not a recent introgression.

Its only L21 I am talking about in this thread.  There is not much that can be said about L21 in Italy when there is only one.  If there were even a handful some cimment might be possible regarding STRs.     
Logged
Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2158


« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2010, 02:44:01 PM »

Actually Italy has a second R-L21, I signaled to Rich but I had no answer. He is an American of Italian descent (Basil, Italian surname Basile) who wrote to me matching an Italian (not SNPs tested) I found on SMGF and put on Ysearch. He comes from Sicily and perhaps he is of Norman descent.

Re Argiedude's STRs I have said many times that they are very different from the others known, with DYS19=10 if I remember well, that we could think to a very ancient origin of this haplotype and to an ancient Italian origin rather than a recent introgression, but of course we should have more data. It is more likely that the Sicilian one is of Norman descent.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2010, 02:47:08 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2010, 07:54:17 PM »

Actually Italy has a second R-L21, I signaled to Rich but I had no answer. He is an American of Italian descent (Basil, Italian surname Basile) who wrote to me matching an Italian (not SNPs tested) I found on SMGF and put on Ysearch. He comes from Sicily and perhaps he is of Norman descent.

Re Argiedude's STRs I have said many times that they are very different from the others known, with DYS19=10 if I remember well, that we could think to a very ancient origin of this haplotype and to an ancient Italian origin rather than a recent introgression, but of course we should have more data. It is more likely that the Sicilian one is of Norman descent.

That's right, and Basil/Basile is on the R-L21 European Continent Map. I kind of remember your email about Basil, but I thought I answered. I agree he could be of Norman descent, but who knows?
Logged

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2010, 06:35:35 PM »

I noticed on the Haplotree/My Matches page of one of my members that there are two R-L21s listed in Sicily. We know Basil is one, so who is the other?
« Last Edit: March 16, 2010, 06:35:51 PM by rms2 » Logged

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2158


« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2010, 06:57:52 PM »

If you mean  one person who is named “Sicilia” and who matches Basil… I put him on Ysearch but I don’t remember when and how I was  able to have his markers. For this I was asked by Basil, but it is very strange also for me, because I find my data from SMGF and these are the data of FTDNA. I should search  for it in my posts. The data of Basil/Basile match closely some Irish men and he could be a NPE happened in US, for this it would be interesting for me (and also for you) to find the occasion in which I put those data  on Ysearch.
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2010, 02:52:38 PM »

If you mean  one person who is named “Sicilia” and who matches Basil… I put him on Ysearch but I don’t remember when and how I was  able to have his markers. For this I was asked by Basil, but it is very strange also for me, because I find my data from SMGF and these are the data of FTDNA. I should search  for it in my posts. The data of Basil/Basile match closely some Irish men and he could be a NPE happened in US, for this it would be interesting for me (and also for you) to find the occasion in which I put those data  on Ysearch.

No, this would be someone who got into Ancestral Origins by entering Italy and Sicily on his FTDNA User Preferences page.

The country that shows up on the Haplotree/My Matches list is entered by the individual or the person responsible for the sample.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2010, 02:54:00 PM by rms2 » Logged

jerome72
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 64


« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2010, 03:48:16 AM »

I always had a hunch France (as the country closest linked to the isles in prehistory) would contain the L21 continrntal 'mother-load'.  Other than SW Germany, which geographcally attaches to France more than it does to Germany there is simply no hint of a similar level anywhere else.  To me L21 distribution bears some hallmarks of dilution from U152 and U106 overlaying from the east.  I get that impression on the continent and also in the British Isles.  It is possible that these difference always existed from the start but I do get the feeling of an overlay.  

It is interesting that the French evidence seems to indicate that U152 dominance was only in the east of 'Gaul'.  We knew it was big in Swtzerland and south Germany and now we also know it was dominant on the fringe close to south-Germany.  However, we also now know that its dominance did not extend across much of the rest of Gaul.  Its dominance seems to have been in the south-eastern parts of Gaul with L21. S116* dominating to the north and west (at least in Celtica). They probably overlapped greatly but perhaps at the extremes did not to a great degree.  That could explain why Celtic invasions to Italy didnt seem to bring much L21 while movements to the isles brought a great deal.

Thus,
What are the hypotheses to explain the very high proportion of L21 from the northwest of Gaul to Ireland?
The original L21 is in this area?
Or L21 immigrants, when they are gone somewhere to the east (Germany, Eastern Europe, West Asia) were not mixed with other sub-groups known (or very little) and were the first settlers R1b1b2 has come to the land of extreme western Europe?

Other assumptions?
Logged
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2010, 07:36:10 AM »

I still think L21 probably originated in SW Germany and moved west, through France, and thence across the Channel to the British Isles.

It wasn't the first y haplogroup in the area; some kind of I2a probably had that distinction, but it must have been a fairly early arrival.

It seems to me apparent that the first L21 man in Ireland was not born there; L21 entered Ireland, either from the Continent or from Britain.
Logged

alan trowel hands.
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2012


« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2010, 11:08:13 AM »

Jerome-I do not know how L21 or U152 came to be dominant in different areas.  My guess (and it i just a guess) is that S116, U152 and L21 all occurred as R1b1b2 spread through central Europe before France had been reached and that it was really just chance that meant that more L21 spread into the north of France.  

The picture would be clearer if the Spanish authors of the recent study on French DNA are willing to give us the percentages of each clade they found in each area of France.  I have emailed them (in English - my Spanish is not very good) to request this but no reply.

Alan
« Last Edit: March 18, 2010, 11:10:50 AM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
jerome72
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 64


« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2010, 12:19:45 PM »

OK for France, we're not sure of the proportions of L21.
But Irlande, we know that L21 is very important.
Why?
Is it because a small group of L21 (just chance) emigrated on this island and had many descendants? In this case, all the L21 Irish would from the same branch.
or
Ireland known a significant immigration from the continent  (either directly or by way of Britain). In this case we are forced to consider that (s) location (s) starting on the continent at this time were almost exclusively L21.
That the north-west of France is overwhelmingly L21 would be more logical. So we can conclude that L21 was the first (and only) haplogroup R1b1b2 has reached the northwest coast of the North Atlantic...
Logged
Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2964


WWW
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2010, 03:52:34 PM »

... Is it because a small group of L21 (just chance) emigrated on this island and had many descendants? In this case, all the L21 Irish would from the same branch.
This, I'm pretty sure, is not true. There are many types of L21 in Ireland some of which are more closely related to people in Scandinavia or people on the continent to some of the other types in Ireland.

I do not think that L21 came to Ireland once in one wave.  Who were the waves and which was largest is a difficult question.
Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2964


WWW
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2010, 03:55:52 PM »

.... That the north-west of France is overwhelmingly L21 would be more logical. So we can conclude that L21 was the first (and only) haplogroup R1b1b2 has reached the northwest coast of the North Atlantic...
Current numbers do not equate to being first.  I think most would say Hg I reached the Atlantic Coast before R1b1b2.  Why is not possible that some forms or R-P312* were first?
Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
alan trowel hands.
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2012


« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2010, 04:09:29 PM »

Jerome.  My guess would be similar.  It is no clear to me whether NW France was strongly L21 or whether it was chance that meant mainly L21 went to the Atlantic part of the isles. Its hard to say at present because of a lack of reliable statistics.  If it is only Ireland where L21 dominates then perhaps it was chance. However, if Wales, Atlantic Scotland are also predominantly L21 then that would suggest that perhaps L21 was very dominant in northern France where the settlers would have likely come from.  Problem is there are no reliable L21 statistics for Wales etc.  I can understand why you are interested - if all the remote parts of the isles and NW France are very high in L21 then it could be taken to suggest L21 was 'early' in France too and that U152 followed later and U106 later still.   I really hope the people who did that study of French DNA recently will provide a breakdown of percentages of clades in each area.  
Logged
alan trowel hands.
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2012


« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2010, 04:29:31 PM »

Mike-That is a good point.  All of Ireland's nearest points of contact by sea (western Britain, NW France, Norway) have high L21 so movements from these areas in any periods would likely have brought one variety of L21 or another.  Those areas are also the sources of most known migration to Ireland both prehistoric and historic times.  However, to date STRs have not really produced a series of clusters suggesting waves with different continental origins.  The clusters seem local and historic era in date.  The hope that continental L21 would break into nice clusters that we could then recognise them in Ireland and Britian has not happened.  Lack of 67-marker testing?  We also could do with SNPs that fall between the early internatonal ones like L21, U152, S116 etc and the much later local isles historc period ones like M222 etc.   There seem to be two distinct groups of SNPs dated by the variance gurus to the Bronze Age and early Medieval periods respectively.  Why is there a burst of early SNPs then nothing unti the Medieval era?
Logged
Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2964


WWW
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2010, 03:39:56 PM »

....  We also could do with SNPs that fall between the early internatonal ones like L21, U152, S116 etc and the much later local isles historc period ones like M222 etc.   There seem to be two distinct groups of SNPs dated by the variance gurus to the Bronze Age and early Medieval periods respectively.  Why is there a burst of early SNPs then nothing unti the Medieval era?

R-L159.2 just came up with an MDKA from the Alscase-Lorraine region.  They have another from Germany. Even though this does not constitute a trend, maybe L159 will show more continental content.  There is another Frenchman (Brittany) who fits with the Leinster haplotypes but he has not done L159 testing. 

Irish Type III has 17 of English people and one from Denmark! 2 of the 17 English are confirmed L226+ but I'm pretty sure they all are L226+

I wouldn't expect a lot of L226+ and L159+ on the continent, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to find enough one day to consider their origin as possibly on the continent.

As far as continental connections, I'm more interested in Irish Type IV/Continental and the 11-13 Combo people.  I wish there was a strong Irish Type IV/Continental project.  Maybe I'm missing it.  Does anyone know of research with the Irish Type IV people?

The 11-13 Combo variety have five continental folks.  One in Group A, one in Group B and three ungrouped (11-13* if there was such a thing).  I mention that because I can't guarantee 11-13 is a single clade, but I'm pretty sure Groups A, B and C of it each are.  By the way, Group C is almost completely people who claim they have Norman ties.  There is one large element of Group A that says the same.   BTW, Group B has a couple of Scandinavians as well, one that matches the Luxembourg individual.

I do have a couple of other varieties that include continental people but the GD's are in the 15-20 of 67 range so even with an off-modal STR signature they are marginal and I won't go into them.  However, these might well have a common ancestor as of the Roman and Medieval times.  That's a critical timeframe to understand.

About 75% of our R-L21* confirmed folks have tested to 67 markers whereas about 50% of the European continental folks have.  I count 52 R-L21 confirmed 67 length continental haplotypes.  We just plain need more.




Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2964


WWW
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2010, 03:50:14 PM »

.... There seem to be two distinct groups of SNPs dated by the variance gurus to the Bronze Age and early Medieval periods respectively.  Why is there a burst of early SNPs then nothing unti the Medieval era?
I think this is somewhat due to luck but also due to frequency.  We tend to hear about the SNP's that have a lot of people... which may make them easier to find/notice.

An example of an SNP no one talks about it L193+.  It has at least ten people in it confirmed.  I know of 7 and 6 of the 7 have unique surnames so this is not a single family type deal.   I've identified about 40 haplotypes in Ysearch and the like of people that I think will have it but it is not going to be as big as M222, nor L226, and probably not L159.2.  BTW, L193+ is heavy in Scotland, with some Ulster folks....  I think it will be Vances, Fergusons, McClain/McLeans, Newtons, Meeks surnamed people plus a few others.  They are probably related back to late Medieval times.
Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
Pages: [1] 2 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


SEO light theme by © Mustang forums. Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC

Page created in 0.132 seconds with 19 queries.