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Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen
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« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2010, 09:58:26 PM »

“I never send anyone to that place. He would probably just be corrupted there beyond hope of recovery.”

Yeah, I can understand that.

“I wonder just how many continental L21+ results we need from that under tested region before people will finally give up the effort to make L21 into THE Irish SNP.”

For some there will never be enough.
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Heber
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« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2010, 05:26:20 AM »

Our French and Germans don't have any significant Irish matches, and thus far no L226 has been found in France or Germany.

The movements identified by Heber were not enough to account for the amount of L21 we are seeing in continental Europe.

Ireland is an island. Founder effect and drift are stronger in such relatively small, relatively isolated environments.

Add to that the fact that Ireland is massively over represented in genetic genealogy databases relative to continental Europe and you have the reason Ireland seems to loom large in the L21 story.

Another thing Heber apparently missed: although the difference is not all that great, the few French haplotypes have greater variance than the mass of Irish haplotypes. Translation: French L21 is older than Irish L21.




I would be delighted if L21 was found to originate in France. It would give me yet another excuse to visit "La Belle France", as if I needed one. I would start my research mission visiting the 20 or more Grand Cru Irish vineyards in Bordeaux.
However I am trying to get to grips with the facts. Perhaps board members could fill in the gaps.

M269 arrived in Ireland 5,000 bce.
P312 arrived in Ireland ?? (from where).
L21    TMRCA 3,500 bce.   (from where)
M222 TMRCA 1,600 bce. NW Ireland, O'Neill.
L226  TMRCA 1,100 bce. SW Ireland, O'Brian.
L159  TMRCA ???            East Ireland, O'Byrne.
L193  TMRCA 1,500 bce. NW Ireland, Scotland.
Am I missing something?
I dont know of any French L21 sub clades. Please update me.
My point about the monasteries is that they were in existance from 500 - 1500.
There was frequent traffic between Ireland and the Irish/Scots monasteries during that period.
The main commercial activity of the monasteries was organised agriculture and that was done by the lay tenents.


There are a number of problems with your timeline.
There is no evidence M269 arrived in Ireland around 5000 BC. If it did , we should probably see a lot of of M269(xP312,U106) and probably some ht35 as well. In fact there appears to be very little in the British Isles.
L21 probably didn't arrive in the British Isles until around the time of the Bronze age, because that is about when it first came into existence. The manner in which it is distributed across the continent suggests, at least to me and many others, that it arose in west/central Europe at some location north of the Alps , and then spread mostly but not entirely in a northwestly direction.
What evidence suggests L21 originated in the British Isles? Absolutely nothing that I can see.
Other L21 subclades, such as M222,  which appear not be found in any significant numbers of the continent, may well have had an origin In Ireland or somewhere in the British Isles.


The latest academic study, with proper random sampling, on the subject:

A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for European Paternal
Lineages (January 2010)

The frequency of the major western European lineage, haplogroup (hg)
R1b1b2, follows a cline from 12% in Eastern Turkey to 85% in
Ireland (Figure 1B), and is currently carried by some 110 million
European men.

France 62.8%-80.5%.
Ireland 85.4%

The most important cultural transition was the adoption of
agriculture originating in the Fertile Crescent in the Near East at
the start of the Neolithic, ,10 KYA [2]. It spread rapidly
westwards via Anatolia [3] (Figure 1A), reaching Ireland by 6
KYA, accompanied by the development of sedentary populations
and demographic expansion.

Ireland 5,533 (4,094–7,391)

A older article on the subject (2009).

http://www.bethnesaf.net/SteveJones.php
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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
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Maternal H1C1



Heber
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« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2010, 05:42:43 AM »


http://wapedia.mobi/en/Hiberno-Scottish_mission

I do not know the percentage of L21 in France or Germany.

Has any serious academic studies been published on this subject?
I noted the handful which appear in the L21 spreadsheet.
How were these selected?

I don't have exact figures but a number of reasonably random European descended R1b1b2 men (French mostly) have been tested for R-L21. the outcome of this is about 50% of R1b1b2 predicted French men are R-L21+ in the north with the frequency dropping as you move south (this is only rough but I think that’s not to far off)

So if we say for the sake of argument that 30% of R1b1b2 predicted French males are L21+ (which could be an underestimate), and assume about 45% of France is R1b1b2 (which I think is about right) that would mean of the 32 million (ish) Frenchmen living in France at the moment over 4 million of them are probably R-L21, which is quite a lot compared to the total male population of Ireland (North & South) which is about 3 million.

Hopefully somebody will correct me if this is too far out, but it’s only intended to give you an idea of the scale of L21 in France


JDean,
Thanks for your feedback.
Could you provide me with a link to the study.
If it is based on proper random sampling, I will accept it without hesitation (and eat humble pie).
If it is based on trawling the ysearch database and cherry picking candidates, I will continue searching.
And yes you are right the male population of Ireland is only about 3M.
However the Irish Diaspora is probably over 80M.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_diaspora
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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



rms2
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« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2010, 09:08:12 AM »



The latest academic study, with proper random sampling, on the subject:

A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for European Paternal
Lineages (January 2010)

The frequency of the major western European lineage, haplogroup (hg)
R1b1b2, follows a cline from 12% in Eastern Turkey to 85% in
Ireland (Figure 1B), and is currently carried by some 110 million
European men.

France 62.8%-80.5%.
Ireland 85.4%

The most important cultural transition was the adoption of
agriculture originating in the Fertile Crescent in the Near East at
the start of the Neolithic, ,10 KYA [2]. It spread rapidly
westwards via Anatolia [3] (Figure 1A), reaching Ireland by 6
KYA, accompanied by the development of sedentary populations
and demographic expansion.

Ireland 5,533 (4,094–7,391)

A older article on the subject (2009).

http://www.bethnesaf.net/SteveJones.php


Good study (the first one) but not for the use to which you are apparently putting it.

The new Ballaresque study used short, 9-marker haplotypes that were not restricted to R-L21 but included all kinds of R1b1b2.

R-L21 did not reach Ireland by 6,000 years ago because L21 isn't 6,000 years old. L21, according to the best recent estimates, is 3,000-4,000 years old.

Ireland is an island. Drift and founder effect are greater in such confines than they are in wider expanses (like France), and the percentage of R1b1b2 in an area has little or no bearing on its place of origin.

The paper you cited posits that R1b1b2 probably originated in Anatolia (and I don't disagree), but R1b1b2 is only about 15% of the y-dna in Anatolia. The important point is that the R1b1b2 in Anatolia is OLDER than the R1b1b2 elsewhere.

Maybe you think R1b1b2 itself originated in Ireland?

Thus far you have not offered one shred of evidence that L21 originated in Ireland. Tim Janzen's last estimate (which began this thread) showed that the L21 in France is OLDER than the L21 in Ireland, despite the fact that Tim used far more 67-marker haplotypes from Ireland than he was able to use for France.

By the standard of the Ballaresque report you used to start your post, that makes France more likely to be the starting point for L21 than Ireland.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 09:09:39 AM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2010, 09:19:19 AM »

JDean,
Thanks for your feedback.
Could you provide me with a link to the study.
If it is based on proper random sampling, I will accept it without hesitation (and eat humble pie).
If it is based on trawling the ysearch databasatese and cherry picking candidates, I will continue searching.
And yes you are right the male population of Ireland is only about 3M.
However the Irish Diaspora is probably over 80M.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_diaspora


The study Jdean referred to was conducted by the R-L21 Plus Project and did not involve "trawling the ysearch database and cherry picking candidates". When it began, last summer, the original intent was just that - to pick up some additional continental members due to the overwhelming British Isles bias in the databases (to which you seem oblivious).

But we were unable to find any candidates to "cherry pick". We were forced to just randomly choose R1b1b2 men of French ancestry, some of them with haplotypes of just 12 markers, and very few with 67 markers.

Of those we tested, 61% of those with northern French ancestry were L21+. 50% of the French overall were L21+.

I'll direct you to the actual stats when I get the time later.

If you don't like that study, suit yourself. It involved no cherry picking.

I wish French L21+ haplotypes were obvious enough to cherry pick, but they're not.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 09:19:53 AM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2010, 10:34:09 AM »


So if we say for the sake of argument that 30% of R1b1b2 predicted French males are L21+ (which could be an underestimate), and assume about 45% of France is R1b1b2 (which I think is about right)

That is probably an understimation, the last paper by Balaresque et Alii analysed a sample of 416 individuals of different French regions all over the Atlantic coast of the country and beyond to Haute Garonne in the south, and the lower figure is 62.8% of R1b1b2 over the whole population (Baie de Somme, Picardie) with the higher reaching 80% (Ille-et-Vilaine, Bretagne). The rest of regions all over 68%.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 10:59:29 AM by IALEM » Logged

Y-DNA L21+


MDKA Lope de Arriçabalaga, born c. 1390 in Azcoitia, Basque Country

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« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2010, 11:39:00 AM »


JDean,
Thanks for your feedback.
Could you provide me with a link to the study.
If it is based on proper random sampling, I will accept it without hesitation (and eat humble pie).
If it is based on trawling the ysearch database and cherry picking candidates, I will continue searching.
And yes you are right the male population of Ireland is only about 3M.
However the Irish Diaspora is probably over 80M.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_diaspora


Going by the figures quoted in the other answers it would appear reasonable to estimate that there are almost 5 times as many R-L21 people living in France than Ireland, but of course the only reason for focusing on France is to demonstrate that the high no of Irish R-L21+ results compared to France is down to sampling bias, as you pointed out there are an awful lot of Irish descended men living in N. America, and this is where most FTDNA customers live.

As Ialem pointed out in his post  R-L21 would have originated further east in an area with lower numbers of R-L21 anyway.

BTW the study Rich mentioned (which he puts a lot of hard work into) is ongoing, if you would like to help you could make a contribution to it via the R-L21 Plus Project
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« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2010, 01:14:32 PM »


. . .
BTW the study Rich mentioned (which he puts a lot of hard work into) is ongoing, if you would like to help you could make a contribution to it via the R-L21 Plus Project


Wouldn't it be nice if we could attract a wealthy (and generous!) donor or two. Then we could test all the R1b1b2s in the Iberian Peninsula Project, the French Heritage DNA Project, the Germany Y-DNA Project, the Czech DNA Project, etc., etc., for L21.

Then we might learn something!
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bart otoole
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« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2010, 03:24:17 PM »


BTW the study Rich mentioned (which he puts a lot of hard work into) is ongoing, if you would like to help you could make a contribution to it via the R-L21 Plus Project


I agree 100 % with contributing to the L-21 Plus Project.  I have contributed in the past and plan to continue in the future.

If FTDNA finally agrees to my proposal for an L-21 Null 425 project, I intend to follow Rich's business model in providing test funding on an as needed basis. As a bit of propaganda for the project I'm trying to get off the ground -> Over the past several months Anatole K. had provided dates for L-21.  Both times he separately included the Null 425 component with its own time line (about 2600 years).  There is one existing L-21 null 425 cluster, but there are other nulls out there not in that cluster and probably a lot more to emerge as more people test out to 67 markers and for L-21... Over and above that there are the M-222 nulls - another cluster in and of themselves.

I have a list of over 200 nulls (L21 and R1b1b2), and 65% are the existing L-21 cluster, but the other 35% are not.  Testing - L-21 and DYF371X would be required for the project.  Not everyone can afford testing.

So, wish me luck with getting my project off the ground and also make contributions to the L-21 Plus project.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 03:41:47 PM by bart otoole » Logged

yDNA L21+ null 425


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« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2010, 07:11:39 PM »


BTW the study Rich mentioned (which he puts a lot of hard work into) is ongoing, if you would like to help you could make a contribution to it via the R-L21 Plus Project


I agree 100 % with contributing to the L-21 Plus Project.  I have contributed in the past and plan to continue in the future.

If FTDNA finally agrees to my proposal for an L-21 Null 425 project, I intend to follow Rich's business model in providing test funding on an as needed basis. As a bit of propaganda for the project I'm trying to get off the ground -> Over the past several months Anatole K. had provided dates for L-21.  Both times he separately included the Null 425 component with its own time line (about 2600 years).  There is one existing L-21 null 425 cluster, but there are other nulls out there not in that cluster and probably a lot more to emerge as more people test out to 67 markers and for L-21... Over and above that there are the M-222 nulls - another cluster in and of themselves.

I have a list of over 200 nulls (L21 and R1b1b2), and 65% are the existing L-21 cluster, but the other 35% are not.  Testing - L-21 and DYF371X would be required for the project.  Not everyone can afford testing.

So, wish me luck with getting my project off the ground and also make contributions to the L-21 Plus project.

Maybe we'll both get lucky and Bill Gates will test both L21+ and Null at 425. Then maybe he'll feel generous toward our projects.
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Jdean
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« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2010, 07:22:17 PM »


. . .
BTW the study Rich mentioned (which he puts a lot of hard work into) is ongoing, if you would like to help you could make a contribution to it via the R-L21 Plus Project


Wouldn't it be nice if we could attract a wealthy (and generous!) donor or two. Then we could test all the R1b1b2s in the Iberian Peninsula Project, the French Heritage DNA Project, the Germany Y-DNA Project, the Czech DNA Project, etc., etc., for L21.

Then we might learn something!

It would be nice, in the mean time you have my continued support, as and when, plus others besides

Keep up the good work
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« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2010, 07:34:09 PM »

Thanks, Dave!

It's fun, otherwise I wouldn't do it.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #37 on: January 23, 2010, 09:36:36 PM »

Here's hoping for a good degree of economic revival this year.  
« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 09:36:57 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
Heber
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« Reply #38 on: January 24, 2010, 08:34:46 AM »



The latest academic study, with proper random sampling, on the subject:

A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for European Paternal
Lineages (January 2010)

The frequency of the major western European lineage, haplogroup (hg)
R1b1b2, follows a cline from 12% in Eastern Turkey to 85% in
Ireland (Figure 1B), and is currently carried by some 110 million
European men.

France 62.8%-80.5%.
Ireland 85.4%

The most important cultural transition was the adoption of
agriculture originating in the Fertile Crescent in the Near East at
the start of the Neolithic, ,10 KYA [2]. It spread rapidly
westwards via Anatolia [3] (Figure 1A), reaching Ireland by 6
KYA, accompanied by the development of sedentary populations
and demographic expansion.

Ireland 5,533 (4,094–7,391)

A older article on the subject (2009).

http://www.bethnesaf.net/SteveJones.php


Good study (the first one) but not for the use to which you are apparently putting it.

The new Ballaresque study used short, 9-marker haplotypes that were not restricted to R-L21 but included all kinds of R1b1b2.

R-L21 did not reach Ireland by 6,000 years ago because L21 isn't 6,000 years old. L21, according to the best recent estimates, is 3,000-4,000 years old.



Rich,

Thanks for your reply and I look forward to reading your study and providing constructive feedback.
I would like to emphasise that I really appreciate the hard work and ground breaking progress made on the L21, P312, M222, L226, L193, L159 by yourself, Bernard Secher,  Dennis Wright, Mike Walsh, David Wilson and others on this board.
I would also like to clarify that I did not say that L21 reached Ireland 6,000 years ago. My estimate for M269 was 5,000 bce and the Ballaresque study estimates 5,533 bce.

M269 arrived in Ireland 5,533 bce.
P312 arrived in Ireland ?? (from where).
L21    TMRCA 3,500 bce.   (from where)
M222 TMRCA 1,600 bce. NW Ireland, O'Neill.
L226  TMRCA 1,100 bce. SW Ireland, O'Brian.
L159  TMRCA ???            East Ireland, O'Byrne.
L193  TMRCA 1,500 bce. NW Ireland, Scotland.

I had a quick look at the French data on the L21 site and noted a sample size of 29 with only 14 67 markers, less than 4 per region,  and no confirmed haplogroups.
I'm sure we all look forward to more random French, Continental (and Irish) data in order to draw conclusions.
As the majority of L21 subclades appear to be from Ireland and its upstream haplogroups appear to have arrived in Ireland 5,000 years ago, and the highest density of M269 appears to be in Ireland, I prefer to keep an open mind on this one.
As stated previously, I would be delighted if L21 turns out to originate in France.
I am slightly wary of the mass unidirectional invasion, with no back migration theories, (especially after watching Avatar yesterday :). I believe there could be gradual back migrations over long periods.
I have presented possible explanations for Irish DNA on the continent including the Celtic monastic movement from 500 - 1,500 and the Wild Geese migrations 17-18 C.

I would be happy to work on a detailed table of L21 defining mutations, such as L21, P312, P310, L51, L23 and M269 including TMRCA, Origin, and possible paths to and from Ireland along with historical context, but would need the assistance of the experts on this board.
I would be interested in hearing the members views on this.
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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #39 on: January 24, 2010, 09:20:15 AM »

Heber

If today's patterns among those with native Irish Gaelic surnames represent those of the past (which admittedly is a big if but there is no point in this speculation if we do not make that assumption) then S116* did not really arrive in Ireland in any numbers and S116 essentially arrived in Ireland in the form of L21.  This indicates that the SNP had happened somewhere else prior to arriving in Ireland .  L21 simply has to have happened among an S116* population and these are present pretty well everywhere but Ireland.  The place of origin of L21 would likely be in an area where S116* parent clade is common and L21 is also present.  The area of significant overlap pretty well stretches from the French-Spanish border area to Norway and Bohemia although the main block is clearly in France, south Germany and into adjacent smaller countries.

Comparing this with the archaeological evidence is tricky especially as the two main options includes one that is very much debated (beakers) in terms of origin, directions of spead and meaning.  The other option (early Neolithic) is complicated by two main routes of spread into the west followed by a harder to interpret middle Neolithic.  However, I think in all of those cases we can rule out the isles and Scandinavia as sources.  That basically leaves the block that is centred on France but stretching from Bohemia to the Basque French-Spanish border area.  My guess is the L21 SNP probably happened at one end or other of that block during a period of rapid spread of S116* but which it was depends on what model you favour.  A Cardial or beaker origin may support the western end (Basque area) while a Linearbandkermik model woud support the east end (south Germany).    I am sure if we had a decent randomly sampled deep clade testing study acros Europe the answer woudl be  a lot clearer.  

As for immediate departure point for Ireland then my guess is that that has really got to have been northern France (which is packed with L21) either directly or via Britain.        
« Last Edit: January 24, 2010, 09:27:05 AM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
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« Reply #40 on: January 24, 2010, 11:05:53 AM »

Alan makes an excellent point. Ireland is too solidly L21+ to be the original source of L21. When you're trying to find out where the son came from, look for dad, granddad and the other relatives. It's the same case for R1b itself. Almost no one believes that R1b arose in Western Europe, even though nowadays R1b (meaning its various descendants) is by far at its most frequent there.

Heber -

Here is the link to a thread that details the results of our recent study, which I do not claim to be über-scientific.

http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=9082.0

My mind is only "open" in the sense that real evidence convinces me. Otherwise, I think I have a pretty fair idea that L21 did NOT originate in the British Isles.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #41 on: January 24, 2010, 09:59:46 PM »

Indeed if L21 happened as the parent S116 group (which may have still been very young in itself) was moving in a fast wave then we might expect a thin tale leading to the main block of L21.  You could argue that in that scenario the thin tail of mostly S116 with a little L21 (the reverse of Ireland) is the most likely identifier of the spot where L21 first happened.  However, it is also possible that progress was patchy enough to allow the L21 to have build up a bit near its source before moving on but its pretty clear that in most areas L21 must have moved with S116* and other clades.  Ireland is kind of unique in the utter dominance of L21 and that suggests it was the end not the begining of the L21 trail.  I think that the main candidates for L21 are somewhere around south Germany if R1b1b2 spread by that route OR alternatively if it came by a Med. route then it must have happened as S116 moved into France from the south or perhaps as it moved into Atlantic France overland to the Garrone from the Med. or as S116* was passing out of northern Iberia into France.  It is worth noting that France was the end of the line for both the Cardial and LBK cultures (they eyeballed each other across the Loire in the west) and France was a kind of dead end for the spread of farming until after a pause for many centuries a new frontier (and new dead ends) were created with the settling of the isles and the north European plain.
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Heber
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« Reply #42 on: January 26, 2010, 04:40:43 AM »


. . .
BTW the study Rich mentioned (which he puts a lot of hard work into) is ongoing, if you would like to help you could make a contribution to it via the R-L21 Plus Project


Wouldn't it be nice if we could attract a wealthy (and generous!) donor or two. Then we could test all the R1b1b2s in the Iberian Peninsula Project, the French Heritage DNA Project, the Germany Y-DNA Project, the Czech DNA Project, etc., etc., for L21.

Then we might learn something!

You should consider submitting an application to the EU 7th Framework Programme.
The funding for FP7 is as follows. FP8 is in preparation.

http://cordis.europa.eu/home_en.html

EC Programme 50 521 million Euro (current prices)
– Cooperation 32 413 million Euro
– Ideas 7 510 million Euro
– People 4 750 million Euro
– Capacities 4 097 million Euro
– JRC EC Programme 1 751 million Euro

It would require forming a consortium of at least 4 groups in at least 4 European countries.

For example it could consist of
A Testing Company (FTDNA, 23andme, deCode genetics etc)
A University (Leicester, Trinity etc)
Genetic Genealogy Groups (World Families, Ancestry, ISOGG etc)
Community (World Families, EUpedia, DNA-Forums etc.)

I cannot think of a more worthwhile EU funded research project, than determining the history and genetic makeup of Europe.
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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
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« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2010, 08:46:08 AM »

It is worth noting that France was the end of the line for both the Cardial and LBK cultures (they eyeballed each other across the Loire in the west) and France was a kind of dead end for the spread of farming until after a pause for many centuries a new frontier (and new dead ends) were created with the settling of the isles and the north European plain.

Alan,
Thank you for your analysis.
What is your interpretation of Carrowmore (7,400 bce) and The Ceide Fields (5,500 bce).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrowmore
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%A9ide_Fields

If the Ceide Fields was not agriculture, what was it?
Everyone is talking about a migration by land along the great rivers. Surely there were also parallel migrations by sea along the Atlantic facade. They certainly had the navigational capabilities.

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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



pas.ban3
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« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2010, 07:02:29 AM »

Dear All,
It has been some time since I last looked at the R-L21 data in
regards to possible areas of origin based on intraclade TMRCA estimates.
See and for background. There are now about twice as many R-L21 haplotypes
available as compared to 8 months ago. I thus decided to analyze the
currently available 67-marker haplotypes from the FTDNA R-21 project at  to
see if the current data supports any particular theory in regards to the
area of origin of R-L21. The current data shows that R-L21 has the highest
variance in England. Below are intraclade TMRCA estimates using various
marker sets for groups of haplotypes from various geographical regions. The
TMRCA estimates for samples from Great Britain and Ireland are slightly
older than the TMRCA estimates for samples from Continental Europe.
Sincerely,
Matt






_________________________________
linux+ ll mcdst certification ll mcse exam papers
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rms2
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« Reply #45 on: February 13, 2010, 01:18:52 PM »

According to Dr. Anatole Klyosov, the oldest R-L21 is in France, followed very closely by Germany. But he did not restrict himself to 67-marker haplotypes. Using only 67-marker haplotypes severely limits the number of continental haplotypes under consideration.

At any rate, the various estimates are all so close that at this point it is not possible to say with much confidence, at least in terms of haplotype variance, where L21 originated.

Personally, I think an origin in the British Isles is very unlikely.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2010, 01:30:51 PM by rms2 » Logged

alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #46 on: February 14, 2010, 07:15:07 AM »

The similarity of L21 in the isles and France/Germany could be telling us something but I really suspect that the French sample will be significantly older than the isles. It seems that each time it is calculated the oldest area changes - first it was Ireland, then Scotland, then England, then France/Germany.  The French sample was originally tiny and it seems that as it has grown that it gets older each time variance is recalculated.  It is still very small in terms of 67 marker L21 confirmed people.  I have a strong suspicion that the sample has been so small that we are only slowly revealing the full diversity of French L21.  I think getting L21 people of French origins to upgrade to 67 markers is a major issue if we want to do these calculations with more confidence       
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rms2
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« Reply #47 on: February 14, 2010, 10:20:10 AM »

I believe Dr. Klyosov used 25 markers, which should be sufficient to calculate haplotype diversity and allowed more continental haplotypes to be used. Even so, there is still an over abundance of British Isles samples, a thing which hampers age estimates for all the R1b1b2 subclades.
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OConnor
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« Reply #48 on: March 01, 2010, 07:30:59 AM »

Did you ever see this paper?

The 2006 study explores the mtDNA and Y-STR (as well as X-DNA and autosomal DNA) of over 20 skeletons found in the Lichtenstein Cave (within the region of the Jastorf culture, in Lower Saxony).

Bronze Age family burial site.  The paper  is illustrated with color photos, maps, and tables with DNA results. Written in German, it is quite easy to find the charts with the mtDNA and Y-STR  imfo.

 http://tinyurl.com/2kmp6x
« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 07:31:16 AM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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rms2
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« Reply #49 on: March 01, 2010, 08:49:58 AM »

Yes, I read that quite awhile back. It is very interesting. Too bad they never seem to go far enough with SNP testing.
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