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secherbernard
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« on: March 04, 2010, 04:44:28 PM »

Jocelyne Desideri just highlight migrations of Bell beakers during the 3rd millennium BC, from the physico-chemical analyze of a great number of teeth. See following french article: http://www.unige.ch/presse/Campus/campus92/recherche2/3RE2.pdf
It seems that the Beaker phenomenon is excerpted from the Iberian peninsula and then spreads to Europe. After contacts with people of Eastern Europe, the Beaker phenomenon has spread again toward western Europe.

These results must be compare with results obtained on the grave of Beaker Amesbury near Stonehenge in England. Physico-chemical teeth showed that the death was from the Alps.

It seems that many population movements arrived during the birth of the first metallurgy in Western Europe.

Emilie Blaise showed that first domestication of horse in south east France appears for the first time during beaker times: http://tel.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs/00/40/23/02/PDF/Blaise_Vol._2_Texte.pdf (page 593)
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IALEM
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« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2010, 04:10:41 AM »

Jocelyne Desideri just highlight migrations of Bell beakers during the 3rd millennium BC, from the physico-chemical analyze of a great number of teeth. See following french article: http://www.unige.ch/presse/Campus/campus92/recherche2/3RE2.pdf
It seems that the Beaker phenomenon is excerpted from the Iberian peninsula and then spreads to Europe. After contacts with people of Eastern Europe, the Beaker phenomenon has spread again toward western Europe.

That is exaclty what I have been explaining in my posts on this forum, it is given the archaeological evidence the more logical explanation, and now biologicl evidence also lends support to the idea.

« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 04:11:11 AM by IALEM » Logged

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secherbernard
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« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2010, 05:12:43 AM »

I have translated what Didier Vernade said on an other french forum:

"I think we have here the beginnings of a synthesis between genetic data and archeology. There was a group "R1b (ht15) typical of Western Europe and initial estimates showed variability of this group a little larger on the Iberian Peninsula which led the researchers on the basis of a poor estimate of mutation rate (and therefore the age of the phenomenon), the theory of the glacial refuge in Spain with reconquest. Then we realized that R1b-ht15 was much younger and they looked toward the east where there are R1b-ht35. It now appears that the ht15-R1b branch has been split and from Eastern Europe have moved rapidly towards the Iberian peninsula and started a dispersion from the Iberian basis, which reconciles the previous theories in a way. Of course, we do not know if it's only R1b; probably G2a3b1 follow. Theory postulated refugium in Spain as a small number of founders R1b (the "survivors") who may well be a small company with the successful "raid of the millennium". What was their advantage? I think the horse riders is a very good track."
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 05:13:55 AM by secherbernard » Logged

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secherbernard
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« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2010, 07:33:29 AM »

Jocelyne Desideri just highlight migrations of Bell beakers during the 3rd millennium BC, from the physico-chemical analyze of a great number of teeth. See following french article: http://www.unige.ch/presse/Campus/campus92/recherche2/3RE2.pdf
I have found an english paper about Desideri works: http://www.fondationlatsis.org/plpdf/Prix_Latsis/UNIGE_2008.pdf
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 07:39:14 AM by secherbernard » Logged

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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2010, 01:08:44 PM »

If my “compatriot” (Desideri is a Tuscan surname, in North Italy it would be “Desderi”) is right, she would have demonstrated only the last phase of the expansion of R1b1b2a1b, but you should explain where have been R1b1*, R-V88, R-V35 and 7, R1b1b2-M269, R1b1b2-M269-L23+/L150- etc. I have always supported that Spain has mostly R1b1b2a1b and some subclades (R-M153 and M167), but lacks of the previous  clades, that I think where in Italy during the Younger Dryas and perhaps before. We shall see from the aDNA if they arrived to Italy from East, as Vizachero and others are thinking, or if it is true the contrary.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2010, 07:11:05 PM »

IN some form or other the idea of some sort of movement coming from Iberia meeting other influences in central Europe then a reflux back west has been around for a long time in different guises. 

As for a leap to Iberia from the SE in terms of ht15 and then it spreading out along beaker networks, I will simly note that the variance/diversity calculations I have seen for ht15 seperated ifrom ht35, make it seem that ht15 is younger in southern Europe. Pooling ht15 and ht35 into a single R1b1b2 sample obscured that. I think at present the variance dates for ht15 in each area and for P310^/L11* points more towards a route east through eastern and central Europe with Iberia and especially Italy and the south-east recieving ht15 late.   
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Jean M
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« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2010, 07:40:38 PM »

@ secherbernard

Thank you for pointing out these two doctoral research projects.

Jocelyne Desideri is relying heavily on the radiocarbon dates of BB for her analysis, and has not really provided independent evidence of direction of movement. What is useful is the evidence of post-Neolithic population replacement.  However we already had this in the form of cranial evidence for Bell Beaker, and that was argued away. So I doubt if this further evidence will really sway the archaeologists without aDNA.

It is good that she's aiming to get isotopes, but it should be stressed that these are of limited utility for assessing migration, in that only the first generation of migrants will retain evidence of origin. I hate to sound like a broken record, but aDNA is so much better.  
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 07:44:44 PM by Jean M » Logged
secherbernard
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« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2010, 03:06:49 AM »

I guess that L21 emerged in France, Germany or Switzerland during Bell Beaker expansion from Iberia. So, we can imagine that P312/S116 emerged in Iberia in the beginning of (or just before) the Bell Beaker phenomena, probably in the chalcolithic sites as Vila Nova de Sao Pedro in Portugal or Los Millares in Andalusia.
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rms2
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« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2010, 09:30:07 AM »

I guess that L21 emerged in France, Germany or Switzerland during Bell Beaker expansion from Iberia. So, we can imagine that P312/S116 emerged in Iberia in the beginning of (or just before) the Bell Beaker phenomena, probably in the chalcolithic sites as Vila Nova de Sao Pedro in Portugal or Los Millares in Andalusia.

The problem with that is that so far R-P312* is youngest in Southern Europe, including Iberia, and older farther east.

I agree that L21 probably arose in France or Germany, though.

I wonder if in the end we will find out that Bell Beaker actually originated in Eastern Europe.
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Jean M
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« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2010, 10:28:49 AM »

I wonder if in the end we will find out that Bell Beaker actually originated in Eastern Europe.

It did in all the ways that really matter. Archaeologists have been so fixated on a pottery style, because that was all they had in the old days to identify and date a culture. Or let's say that it was the chief tool, prior to radiocarbon dating. So entire cultures were named for their pottery. It's going to be hard to shift that iron-hard perspective, even when there is a clear archaeological trail from the east in the form of anthropomorphic stelae. 

It's very hard to get across that the important cultural changes happened before the pottery design we know as Bell Beaker. Yet archaeologists actually know this. The whole complex of the "Secondary Products Revolution" pre-dates Bell Beaker. This is the culture spread by the Bell Beaker and Corded Ware people and some previous cultures. And it came from the east. All this is already known. 
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rms2
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« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2010, 12:35:32 PM »

So, you're saying the pottery might have come from Iberia but the Beaker Folk who took it up were mainly from Eastern Europe? (That's really a question, not the start of some counter argument from me, because I don't have one.)
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 12:35:53 PM by rms2 » Logged

Jean M
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« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2010, 02:24:22 PM »

So, you're saying the pottery might have come from Iberia but the Beaker Folk who took it up were mainly from Eastern Europe?

I have said this repeatedly on several threads. And you can have it in detail, with map and references in The Peopling of Europe. The specific story of Bell Beaker is in section Beaker Folk to Celts and Italics. But that builds on the background, archaeological and genetic, in the previous sections from Copper Age onwards. Plus there is more on R1b in Near Eastern Neolithic.  
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 02:25:35 PM by Jean M » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2010, 06:56:08 PM »

So, you're saying the pottery might have come from Iberia but the Beaker Folk who took it up were mainly from Eastern Europe?

I have said this repeatedly on several threads. And you can have it in detail, with map and references in The Peopling of Europe. The specific story of Bell Beaker is in section Beaker Folk to Celts and Italics. But that builds on the background, archaeological and genetic, in the previous sections from Copper Age onwards. Plus there is more on R1b in Near Eastern Neolithic.  

I know you might not have meant that post to sound snarky, but it did. I don't recall reading the posts where you said the pottery came out of Iberia but the Beaker Folk came out of Eastern Europe, but I don't read every post of every thread here and some that I do read I forget or miss their significance.

My question was an honest one, not meant to provoke anyone's ire.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2010, 08:30:22 PM »

I guess that L21 emerged in France, Germany or Switzerland during Bell Beaker expansion from Iberia. So, we can imagine that P312/S116 emerged in Iberia in the beginning of (or just before) the Bell Beaker phenomena, probably in the chalcolithic sites as Vila Nova de Sao Pedro in Portugal or Los Millares in Andalusia.

The possiblity of R1b1b2 (actually P310 clades) arriving first in the south of Europe is why I asked Tim Jansen on rootsweb to calculate the variance of S116* etc and he concluded that S116* is oldest in eastern and central Europe and youngest in the the south.   
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2010, 08:47:12 PM »

Jean has posted re: the pottery originating in Iberia and heading north and east but the other aspects of the package coming from the east, possibly in a big leap to Iberia.  Jean has also posted the idea that the stelae represent a pre-beaker movement that set up a network that the beakers later travelled along in the opposite direction. Personally I think the stelae evidence is interesting but what interests me more is the strange sudden appearance of archery equipment of types which (I think) were unknown in western Europe like barbed and tanged arrowheads, wrist bracers etc.  I think Jean has previously pointed to an article that suggests and eastern origin for the archery equiptment but I cannot recall what it is.  However, I am stuck in my ways and still wonder if this will all be simpified by earlier beakers being found in the east.  It really was only about 7 years back that the Iberian beaker pot origin theory became popular.  Seven years is microseconds in terms of the years of changing thought on the subject of beakers.     
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2010, 08:51:43 PM »

Jean has posted re: the pottery originating in Iberia and heading north and east but the other aspects of the package coming from the east, possibly in a big leap to Iberia.  Jean has also posted the idea that the stelae represent a pre-beaker movement that set up a network that the beakers later travelled along in the opposite direction. Personally I think the stelae evidence is interesting but what interests me more is the strange sudden appearance of archery equipment of types which (I think) were unknown in western Europe like barbed and tanged arrowheads, wrist bracers etc.  I think Jean has previously pointed to an article that suggests and eastern origin for the archery equiptment but I cannot recall what it is.  However, I am stuck in my ways and still wonder if this will all be simpified by earlier beakers being found in the east.  It really was only about 7 years back that the Iberian beaker pot origin theory became popular.  Seven years is microseconds in terms of the years of changing thought on the subject of beakers.      
I'm still reminded of the old archaeological adage "the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."   As you implied, we only know of the earliest finds of any given artifact.  It doesn't mean there isn't an earlier find yet to be found.  I do think the gradient of evolution of a technology/tool set (or a language for that matter) is important.  It, similar to SNP's, providing evidence of directional movement.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2010, 11:27:47 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2010, 09:25:03 AM »

. . .  However, I am stuck in my ways and still wonder if this will all be simpified by earlier beakers being found in the east . . .     

That is actually what I was wondering about several posts back. As it is, I believe the Csepel Bell Beaker finds in Hungary are so close in age to those in Iberia that there is little difference.

I've got to go back and re-read Jean's The Peopling of Europe (I posted links to it from the Results pages of both the R-L21 Plus Project and the R-P312 and Subclades Project, in case anyone hasn't noticed). It's really well done. I've read it in fits and starts before. I find e-text difficult to negotiate for very long. I was raised on printed books and articles. It's tough to stare at the glimmering screen for extended periods.
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Jean M
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« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2010, 10:52:46 AM »

Richard - my apologies. You can't be expected to recall every word I write, when my own memory is notoriously abysmal. I'm only holding all this detail in my head because I've been constantly re-writing Peopling of Europe over the last year.

After each re-write, I fix it to ensure that anyone should be able to print it out (in A4 portrait not landscape position) without irritating breaks in the middle of images. The footnotes appear at the end. It isn't publication- ready in my view. Or else I might think about making it available in print, just as a more convenient reading method, though that would mean a huge hassle over image copyright.

We are in the midst of a paradigm change that is drastically shaking up our views of prehistory. Certain sections of academia are in ferment. Putting migration back on the menu has opened up the field for a mass of research projects. The work that secherbernard posted about at the start of this thread wasn't even on my radar. There are much bigger projects.  We are going to see so many publications over the next few years. 

Going to print right now would mean short-changing readers, I feel.
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Jean M
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« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2010, 02:33:46 PM »

@ secherbernard - I have found an article in English about the earliest research on this topic by Jocelyne Desideri (2003) and the full title of her PhD thesis (2007), so I have cited those. Thank you.  The piece in English that you found was a resume of her thesis, for which she was awarded Le Prix Latsis de l'Université de Genève for 2008.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2010, 02:35:34 PM by Jean M » Logged
GoldenHind
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« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2010, 06:32:55 PM »

@ secherbernard - I have found an article in English about the earliest research on this topic by Jocelyne Desideri (2003) and the full title of her PhD thesis (2007), so I have cited those. Thank you.  The piece in English that you found was a resume of her thesis, for which she was awarded Le Prix Latsis de l'Université de Genève for 2008.
The article he cited contending that the domestic horse first appeared in France with the Bell Beakers seems to me to be significant.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2010, 07:01:19 PM »

The link with beakers and domesticated horses in western Europe has been suggested for a long time.  I think the earliest domestic horses in Ireland to date were from a beaker level at Newgrange if I remember correctly.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2010, 07:26:05 PM »

For beakers to be linked to R1b1b2 (or ht15) spread west then I can only see three scenarios:

1. Jean's idea that the stelae indicate a pre-beaker move from the east to the west Mediteranean that planted the ancestors of the beaker folk in the west. Med. Beakers were then invented bt these stelae people in Iberia with a later expansion of beaker culture from Iberia to the north and east.

2. That the pots made their way east from Iberia along a network and were adopted by eastern elements who contributed the rest of the package and as a reflux movement of fully blended beaker folk sent the rest of the package and the genes back from there all the way to Iberia and elsewhere, somehow apparently getting to Iberia early.  In this scenario the Iberian beaker makers who first made the pots were not R1b1b2 people but the reflux beaker people from the east were. This relfux model has a long history. 

3.  The true source of beakers has not been found and it lies somewhere in the east and perhaps followed two routes a fast marine one along the south and a slightly slower central European one (rather similar to the spread of farming 3000 years earlier). 
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2010, 07:54:43 PM »

I see one major issue with the stelae model: it greatly lowers the bar for the weight of evidence/burden of proof required to indicate a migration.  If a single artefact or trait like stelae could be taken as an indicator of migration that presents a major problem.  If the first stage of a migration could be indicated by the spread of a single artefact type then we would be spoiled for choice.  To give just one example substantial evidence for the spread of ideas, technology, art etc across the La Tene world has in recent decades been dismissed as evidence for substantial migration, primarily because the artefacts with exotic influence are found among remains and material traditons than looks local, indigenous and not suggestive of migration.  That in general means such influence gets interpeted as elite contact and trade.  If you say that in one case the spread of a single artefact type or trend may be enough to indicate migration then this opens the door to interpret all the other networks of contact that have long been dismissed as evidence of migration in the same way.  Pretty well the entire Copper and Bronze Age displays strong evidence of complex overlapping networks of contact, most of which are generally seen as the results of elite contact and trade these days.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2010, 08:07:33 PM »

Finally, I find Tim Jansens calculations for S116* variance very interesting.  It made the S116* of Italy, SE Europe (admittedly too small a sample) and Iberia (where it is fairly common) considerably younger than in eastern and central Europe (and even the isles).  A similar divide between a young south and an older north was found for S28.  This really does not fit any sort of model that links beakers with R1b1b2 (essentially S116) and with an early arrival in Iberia. 
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Jean M
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« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2010, 08:30:17 PM »

As I see it, the picture is a sort of combination of Alan's 1 and 2.

Picture a big, slow, very visible migration up the Danube, taking time enough to develop Proto-Italo-Celtic. The cultural package they carry from the steppes, I describe thus:

Quote
The full-blown Yamnaya cultural "package" is distinctive. The most visible element of their culture today is the round tumulus or barrow (kurgan in Russian). ....The grave could be further personalised with an anthropomorphic stela, an idea which seems to have arisen on the Crimean peninsula. Specially rich grave goods (sometimes including wagons) in certain burials suggest that the Yamnaya people were led by chiefs. Burial with tool-kits shows the special status of metal-workers.

Metallurgy was revived. New weapon designs included the tanged dagger and the shaft-hole axe, which had been introduced by the Maikop metallurgists. The Yamnaya people wore woven clothes, gold or silver hair rings (lockenringe), distinctive bone toggles and decorated bone discs. Cord decoration was common on pottery. The technical innovations of horse-riding, wheeled transport and metal-working were gradually adopted across Europe.

1) Stelae people split away. They move down to the Adriatic through the Vučedol Culture (Croatia) and from there to Northern Italy, along the river Po to Liguria and on to Iberia by sea. Early Beaker elements are found within the Vučedol Culture, but only later do the two fuse to form the Cetina culture, which has archer's wrist guards, like BB. This route is marked by anthropomorphic stelae, but at this stage not by BB ware.

2) The main migration stream carried on up the Danube, retaining contacts with the Carpathian Basin.

3) Bell Beaker ware is devised in Portugal, but by someone familiar with pottery traditions of the steppe, including corded decoration. The characteristic inverted bell shape has precursors in the Copper Age cup types immediately prior to Bell Beaker in Portugal, presumably made by the Stelae People, but also in vessels with everted rims found on and near the Pontic steppe before 4000 BC, among Cucuteni and Svobodnoe types e.g. D.W. Anthony, The Horse, the Wheel and Language (2007), figs. 11.4,12.9.

4) Bell Beaker ware spreads by sea north to Brittany and by land back along the trail marked by stelae, appearing at numerous sites along the latter route. At Sion, for example, Harrison and Heyd  saw continuity from the start of the stelae site (which they saw as having the Yamnaya package) through to Bell Beaker. They saw an influence from the SW in the earliest Beaker phase.

5) Bell Beaker ware is copied within the "mother-group" starting in Hungary, and spreads from there down the Rhine, entering France, The Netherlands and the British Isles with people from that group - Eastern Bell Beaker.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 07:13:49 AM by Jean M » Logged
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