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Author Topic: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?  (Read 12413 times)
OConnor
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« Reply #50 on: March 04, 2010, 08:17:09 PM »

DNA Shows that KV55 Mummy Probably Not Akhenaten

http://www.kv64.info/2010/03/dna-shows-that-kv55-mummy-probably-not.html
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rms2
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« Reply #51 on: March 04, 2010, 08:34:44 PM »

Wouldn't Hawass et al know which mummy they got the sample from?
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OConnor
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« Reply #52 on: March 04, 2010, 08:59:21 PM »

It's probably all under wraps.....(chuckle chuckle)
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Heber
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« Reply #53 on: March 05, 2010, 02:24:13 PM »

There is an interesting analysis and pictures of the mummies on the following link.

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2010/02/27/the-lineage-of-king-tutankhamun-from-ancient-dna-analysis/
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #54 on: March 06, 2010, 05:29:37 PM »

Wouldn't Hawass et al know which mummy they got the sample from?
Ankenaten's mummy was not found in his tomb in Amarna. Because of his heretical religious beliefs, his city of Amarna was abandoned and his monuments despoiled when the old religion regained controlled after his death. The identification of the mummy in KV 55 as Ankenaten was always highly speculative, the theory being that it had been removed there during the great upheaval after his death.
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« Reply #55 on: March 06, 2010, 06:35:24 PM »

I wasn't aware there was a controversy, but Egyptian history was never really my thing.

But if they are sure they have the right Tut, and if he matches KV55, which is the alleged mummy of Akhenaten, and Akhenaten is supposed to have been Tut's father, then doesn't that lend credibility to the idea that KV55 is Akhenaten?
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« Reply #56 on: March 06, 2010, 08:18:17 PM »

I may be in error, but I thought Tut's Ydna was matched to that of the mummy of Amenhotep III, who was Akenaten's father. The identity of Amenhotep III's mummy is not in doubt. If that of KV55 also matches, that would support the theory it is that of Akenaten. I conceed I have not followed it closely.
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OConnor
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« Reply #57 on: March 07, 2010, 09:26:59 AM »


Here is the Tut Press Release
http://www.drhawass.com/blog/press-release-discovery-family-secrets-king-tutankhamun
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rms2
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« Reply #58 on: March 07, 2010, 09:31:48 AM »

I may be in error, but I thought Tut's Ydna was matched to that of the mummy of Amenhotep III, who was Akenaten's father. The identity of Amenhotep III's mummy is not in doubt. If that of KV55 also matches, that would support the theory it is that of Akenaten. I conceed I have not followed it closely.

Well, I can't say I have been following it all that closely either, but I thought the whole kit-and-kaboodle of pharaoh mummies - Amenhotep III, Akhenaten, and Tut - matched on the y-dna side.

Remember this?
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« Reply #59 on: March 09, 2010, 12:46:43 PM »

As I read the Kate Phizackerley abstract, it seemed she was attempting to say Smenkhkare was an outsider and therefore not Egyptian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smenkhkare#Dakhamunzu


"DNA Shows that KV55 Mummy Probably Not Akhenaten"

http://www.kv64.info/2010/03/dna-shows-that-kv55-mummy-probably-not.html


"Enter Smenkhare?"

 "can be resolved by instead identifying the KV55 mummy as an unknown prince. There is no way to name this prince but he would seem to fit what is known of Smenkhare and, for convenience at least, I’ll work with this attribution throughout the rest of this paper.

The mummy of Akhenaten would remain missing or unidentified."
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« Reply #60 on: March 12, 2010, 12:57:39 AM »

Here is another Kate Phizackerley post. It seems in Egyptology Hawass controls the agenda. 

March 11, 2010

http://www.kv64.info/2010/03/akhenaten-museum-planned.html

Akhenaten Museum Planned

"With Hawass stating strongly in the media that the KV55 mummy is Akhenaten - and needing the mummy as the centrepiece of this new musuem, and with another member of the team (above) stating that the DNA data supports only one solution, it will be very difficult now for the team to admit any alternatives.  I have shown in earlier posts that the published DNA strongly suggests this mummy cannot be Akhenaten and proven that alternative interpretations are absolutely possible.  I lack the academic credentials to be taken seriously.  I can only hope that a doctor or professor will take up the baton and publish to show that the KV55 mummy has probably been misidentified by the Hawass team. Unless of course, there is something in the unpublished data which materially changes things, but I find it hard to envisage anything that could."
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« Reply #61 on: March 21, 2010, 09:08:51 AM »

I have one last comment for this thread. The foot deformity investigated in this video appears to me as a distorted dystonic foot. Depending on the age of death of this person, I would suggest Egyptologists consider Parkinson’s or Dystonia.


http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/king-tut-unwrapped-family-deformities.html
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Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
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« Reply #62 on: March 29, 2010, 05:44:34 PM »

Pardon my inability to talk y-dna proficiently as I have just started studying this wonderful science.  As I am a long time amateur genealogist but short time amateur geneticist I am wondering if someone can help me with a question.  I recently had a series of tests done with genebase (I know probably a bad choice).  I have had good response from them but there is not much help identifying what the snp's mean, etc. 

At any rate I compared some of my snps to King Tut's and this is what I got... pretty close match to my eye but what do I know?   I had a 44 marker test done and it came back R1b1b2a1a2d3 (L2+).  I am currently testing for L20.  Here is my comparison:

King Tut                        Pigman

56 (13-18) = 15                  
389i (9-16) = 13                  13
390 (17-28) = 24                  23
389ii (24-34) = 30                  29
458 (14-20) = 16                  16
19 (10-19) = 8/14 (dual peak)            14
385a (7-25) = 11                  11
385b (7-25) = 14 (? not clear in video)      14
393 (8-17) = 13                  13
391 (6-14) = 11                  11
439 (8-15) = 10                  13
635 (19-26) = 23
392 (6-18) = 13                  13
YGATAH4 (8-13) = 11(10 FtDNA nomenclature)12
437 (13-18) = 9/14 (dual peak)         15
438 (8-13) = 12                  12
448 (16-24) = 19                  19

I could send all of the snp's if someone wants to help me identify my dna further.
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OConnor
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« Reply #63 on: March 30, 2010, 01:48:38 PM »

Those numbers of your's and Tut's are "STR" numbers.  Like the leaves on a tree.

Snp's are markers that are the branches.

I don't think King Tut has been snp tested.

L2 is an snp. Also L20 is an snp.

The leaves may look alike..but are they on the same snp branch?
Maybe you share a common ancestor with Tut back at R1b1b2 ??

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

That is my understanding. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
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« Reply #64 on: March 30, 2010, 07:54:45 PM »

Thanks OConnor,

I guess I should have figured out the STR/SNP thing.

The following are my SNP numbers:  M 168 T+, M173 C+, M207 G+, M343 A+, M45 A+, M89 T+, M9 G+, SRY10831.1 G+ all the rest are negative.  Does these numbers help identify me with a particular group.  All I know so far is they point to Italian. 

I sure wish they would SNP test King Tut. 

Also I just got my deep subclade test back and I am R1b1b2a1a2d3(S28) (L2/L139+,L20-)

Curtis
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« Reply #65 on: April 03, 2010, 07:17:15 PM »

As it turns out, I have another comment for this thread. This discusses King Tut's walking difficulties in more detail. My opinion is that Egyptologists don't have a clue.

28 March 

http://emhotep.net/2010/03/28/egypt-in-the-news/king-tut%E2%80%99s-feet-fatale-did-frail-feet-fell-the-famous-pharaoh/


King Tut’s Feet Fatale: Did Frail Feet Fell the Famous Pharaoh?
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« Reply #66 on: April 07, 2010, 10:52:56 AM »

6 April 2010

Dystonic Feet

http://andgodlaughs.blogspot.com/2010/04/dystonia-and-spasticity.html
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OConnor
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« Reply #67 on: September 02, 2010, 07:07:07 PM »

It seems some folks think R1b means Western Europe.

http://heritage-key.com/blogs/ann/king-tut-scottish-how-far-can-dna-theories-stretch
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« Reply #68 on: September 04, 2010, 10:34:59 PM »

a few thoughts
Legend has it that miles of Spain was a mercenary in Egypt an married the Pharaoh;s daughter Scotia

there is a statue in Egypt of a guy with red hair and a tartan like cloak this has been likened to Joseph and his multi coloured cloak

the chariot was bought to Egypt by the Hiksos who came from the east
these were Incorporated into the army of tutmosis along with the kopesh (sward) and some variations to the war axe

variations on the word  Danu (Dannan etc) are found thought the Mediterranean Greece ,Israel etc, 
Danu was the Hittite  warrior goddess of the moon

some ancient Greeks claimed decedents from Egyptians

the Sea-Ppeoples are (by some) thought to be the Mycenaean after the the claps of the Mycenaean other late bronze age  kingdoms

i saw a program that called into question the dates of the Pharaohs by a couple of hundred years (puts them later) pretty sure it was called Pharaohs and kings on channel 4 (4 on demand) u.k.


all this could point to movement of IE peoples in the eastern and south eastern
another thought has any one considered randy Irish--- druids? LOL
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« Reply #69 on: September 04, 2010, 11:22:35 PM »

a few thoughts
Legend has it that miles of Spain was a mercenary in Egypt an married the Pharaoh;s daughter Scotia..
I was wondering when someone was going to bring that up.  This is in "The irish Race" book my mother gave me.  The book also notes that the term Gael is derived from some part of Egypt with a similar name.
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« Reply #70 on: September 05, 2010, 11:33:10 PM »

Isn't this something?

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2010-09/1283735687

"I dont for a sec. think the problem is a lack of reliable Y-DNA results that
match between the generations.

Thats been established. The autosomnal results are pretty transparently a
response to try to deflect criticism for the grand media rollout concerning
Tuts family DNA and the lavish media campaign to support that, with Zero
results released.

Either Hawass personally or his circle in collusion, is simply deliberately
withholding the Y (and Mt) results.

I saw a posting in a ARCE researchers blog only a day after the big
announcement that Tut was supposedly R1b, and that researcher described a
presentation he claimed to have attended with other foreign Egyptologists at
that time, during which Hawass told them that the DNA results linked Tut
Paternally, and his pharoah father, to a specific "Greek" non-egyptian
ancestor who was a court advisor to the previous pharoah, and that this DNA
line was not carried in prior pharoahs or later... and was not in fact of
egyptian origin.

All this sounds pretty implausible to truthfully 'establish' with such
certainty, but it does sound like the Hawass bunch was sounding-out possible explanations to see how they could ''sell'' the results they are alleged to have come up with, without damaging Tuts ''egyptian-ness'' to their liking.

The next day, the entire ''Tuts' Y-line was father by a greek advisor to his
grandfather'' description was scrubbed from the ARCE blog and the site
searched turned up no results to this page at all. It could be that it was
a inaccurate description of the briefing, or the briefing was 'confidential'
in nature for some reason, which caused them to remove or instruct the
archaeologist to remove the summary, but it should also be noted that Hawass has the power to totally remove all ARCE members or restrict them from working in Egypt.

so.. my guess is, they have repeatable Y- results that don't fit their
liking, and could not find a believable way to ''market'' these results that
did not conflict with what they could accept, and they have the power to
deter anyone from pursuing the matter too vigourously if they ever want to
work in egypt again.

So.. they cut loose with some autosomnal results that offer some results to
quite those they cant shut up, but don't disclose the Y-results that they
are eager to keep private. Doesnt prove the earlier R1b assertions, but sure doesnt conflict with what one would expect if a group of nationalist egyptians got caught with results they didnt like and couldnt find a good way to dispose of the matter."
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« Reply #71 on: September 05, 2010, 11:46:02 PM »

a few thoughts
Legend has it that miles of Spain was a mercenary in Egypt an married the Pharaoh;s daughter Scotia

there is a statue in Egypt of a guy with red hair and a tartan like cloak this has been likened to Joseph and his multi coloured cloak

the chariot was bought to Egypt by the Hiksos who came from the east
these were Incorporated into the army of tutmosis along with the kopesh (sward) and some variations to the war axe

variations on the word  Danu (Dannan etc) are found thought the Mediterranean Greece ,Israel etc,  
Danu was the Hittite  warrior goddess of the moon

some ancient Greeks claimed decedents from Egyptians

the Sea-Ppeoples are (by some) thought to be the Mycenaean after the the claps of the Mycenaean other late bronze age  kingdoms

i saw a program that called into question the dates of the Pharaohs by a couple of hundred years (puts them later) pretty sure it was called Pharaohs and kings on channel 4 (4 on demand) u.k.


all this could point to movement of IE peoples in the eastern and south eastern
another thought has any one considered randy Irish--- druids? LOL


Interesting. I believe Anatolian is a Proto-Indo-European language, also near where the Hittites lived.

I wonder if there is some connection with Irish mythology and the earlier heroic, Indo-European poetic tradition. The chariots also make me think of the Gaels/Celts. I wonder how the bards incorporated Scythia into the legend though?
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« Reply #72 on: September 06, 2010, 01:59:18 PM »

"I wonder how the bards incorporated Scythia into the legend though?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delphi#Oracle

Oracle of Delphi

http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/198805/siwa-oasis.extraordinary.htm

Oracle of Siwa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythia

"The scholar Martin Litchfield West writes that the Pythia shows many traits of shamanistic practices, likely inherited or influenced from Central Asian practices, although there is no evidence of any Central Asian connection at this time. He cites the Pythia sitting in a cauldron on a tripod, while making her prophecies in an ecstatic trance state, like shamans, and her unintelligible utterings.[17]"
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« Reply #73 on: September 06, 2010, 02:31:32 PM »

"or even reshaped her utterances into verse"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythia#Personnel

"Several other officials served the oracle in addition to the Pythia.[23] After 200 BC at any given time there were two priests of Apollo, who were in charge of the entire sanctuary; Plutarch, who served as a priest in the late first century and early second century AD, gives us the most information about the organization of the oracle at that time. Before 200 BC, while the temple was dedicated to Apollo, there was probably only one priest of Apollo. Priests were chosen from among the leading citizens of Delphi, and were appointed for life. In addition to overseeing the oracle, priests would also conduct sacrifices at other festivals of Apollo, and had charge of the Pythian games. Earlier arrangements, before the temple became dedicated to Apollo, are not documented.

The other officials associated with the oracle are less well understood. These are the hosioi ("holy ones") and the prophetai (singular prophetes). Prophetes is the origin of the English word "prophet", but a better translation of the Greek word might be "one who speaks on behalf of another person. "The prophetai are referred to in literary sources, but their function is unclear; it has been suggested that they interpreted the Pythia's prophecies, or even reshaped her utterances into verse, but it has also been argued that the term prophetes is a  reference to any cult officials at the sanctuary, including the Pythia.[24] There were five hosioi, whose responsibilities are unclear, but may have been involved in some way with the operation of the oracle."
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« Reply #74 on: September 07, 2010, 12:44:04 PM »

Looking at the Irish legends and for that matter  the Norse (the Aesir has been likened to Asia) all have a pantheon similar to the Greco/Roman. I beleive Balto /Slavonic  has too (ie they all have equivilent Gods).
I was wondering if the referances to Eiru (Iverni) 'the fertile earth' was used like the word 'home' where they lived at any place at the  in time.
Thus the changes in the number of rivers lakes etc  could indicate a change in place hence the stories could be describing a journey 
any  thoughts?                                     
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