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Author Topic: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?  (Read 11980 times)
Mike Walsh
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« on: February 18, 2010, 01:30:41 PM »

Thanks to Robert Tarin for his crack detective work.

King Tut was Pharoah of Egypt from 1333 BC – 1324 BC, or 3300 ybp. This is a shocker to some, but given Vince V's work, it seems logical enough.  

They had chariots in Egypt at that time, right?  At least Yul Brynner did.
http://tiny.cc/JUQH9

From Robert Tarin on Rootsweb on2/18
Quote
List,

I had an eureka moment in deciphering the marker values displayed for King
Tutankhamun's lineage in the video clip at this link:
http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/king-tut-unwrapped-king-tuts-paternal-line
html

I should point out that in the video they are actually comparing results for
Akhenatan against those of Amenhotep III and not Tutankhamun himself. They said they had to find at least 10 identical markers to prove the
relationship, which they did. In the recently released study, they clearly
identify Akhenatan as the father of Tutankhamun thus making Amenhotep III
the grandfather. The Y-DNA haplotype should most probably be the same for
all three.

I believe I have solved the mystery of Tutankhamun's Y-DNA haplotype and
most surprising, if accurate as portrayed in the video, his haplogroup
appears to be R1b.

Sixteen (17 if you count 385a and 385b) STRs were identified using the
AmpF\STR Yfiler PCR amplification kit from Applied Biosystems. In the video
the display follows the order of the Yfiler v2 program. The STR peaks can
clearly be seen and I only needed to determine the range of values used for
each marker. I did that from Yfiler website itself at
http://www.appliedbiosystems.com/yfilerdatabase/

It was then simply a matter of counting the peaks using the appropriate
range for each marker. Here is what I found from the video clip. Hopefully I
am accurate. The values for DYS393 and YGATAH4 are already revealed in their
published study as 13 and 11 respectively. There is a conversion (-1) for
YGATAH4 to achieve FtDNA nomenclature. I don't think any others need
conversion.

456 (13-18) = 15
389i (9-16) = 13
390 (17-28) = 24
389ii (24-34) = 30
458 (14-20) = 16
19 (10-19) = 8/14 (dual peak)
385a (7-25) = 11
385b (7-25) = 14 (? not clear in video)
393 (8-17) = 13
391 (6-14) = 11
439 (8-15) = 10
635 (19-26) = 23
392 (6-18) = 13
YGATAH4 (8-13) = 11 (10 FtDNA nomenclature)
437 (13-18) = 9/14 (dual peak)
438 (8-13) = 12
448 (16-24) = 19

Comments are welcome.

« Last Edit: February 18, 2010, 01:31:06 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2010, 01:54:53 PM »

If ER7RQ is the ySearch ID for Tut, then he's a GD of 8 on 16 for me.

LOL
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rms2
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« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2010, 02:44:38 PM »

Some folks are thinking that video might be stock footage and not actually represent Tut's pherogram.

We won't know until the results are released officially.
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« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2010, 02:50:53 PM »

The link didn't work.
Try here:
http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/king-tut-unwrapped-king-tuts-paternal-line.html
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« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2010, 03:13:55 PM »

If Tut will be really an R1b1b2, probably R-U152, I'd search among the Shardana (them Sardinians, then Italians). They were the body guards of Pharaons (and of course of their sisters).
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« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2010, 03:49:44 PM »

If Tut will be really an R1b1b2, probably R-U152, I'd search among the Shardana (them Sardinians, then Italians). They were the body guards of Pharaons (and of course of their sisters).

That bodyguard would have had to be the father of Amenhotep, Tut's grandfather, since the reports say Tut matches his grandfather, Amenhotep, and his (Tut's) father, Akhenaton.

Wouldn't the Egyptians have been careful to use only eunuchs to safeguard the females of the royal household?
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« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2010, 04:25:09 PM »

Don't you think it is very strange that Mr. Hawass hasn't published the results? Latins said  "Excusatio non petita accusatio manifesta".
Don't you think that if he had found an hg. E or J he would have certainly published them?
I use irony, as I am usual to do, but I am very serious.

Vizachero used his potato spirit (as we Italians say) when Mayka published on "Genealogy-dna" that the closest to Tut was a Prussian. But the Prussians of the ancient Mediterranean were the Shardanas, fearful mercenaries who probably seeded their R1b1*, R1b1a, R1b1b2 (beside I-M26 etc.) not only in Egypt.
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« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2010, 06:51:01 PM »

I found it interesting that Tut, the Amesbury Archer and the archer's companion had problems with their feet.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/02/100216-king-tut-malaria-bones-inbred-tutankhamun/

King Tut Mysteries Solved: Was Disabled, Malarial, and Inbred

"Picture instead a frail, weak boy who had a bit of a club foot and who needed a cane to walk."

http://www.wessexarch.co.uk/projects/amesbury/archer.html

The Amesbury Archer

http://www.wessexarch.co.uk/projects/amesbury/relative_intro.html

The Archer's Companion

"An analysis of the bones later showed that he and the Archer were related as they both had the same unusual bone structure in their feet – the heel bone had a joint with one of the upper tarsal bones in the foot. This proves they were related, and it is even possible that they were father and son, though this is not certain."
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« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2010, 07:06:44 PM »

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_egypt_king_tut

A frail King Tut died from malaria, broken leg

"Like his grandfather, he had a club foot"
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rms2
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« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2010, 08:00:22 PM »

Don't you think it is very strange that Mr. Hawass hasn't published the results? Latins said  "Excusatio non petita accusatio manifesta".
Don't you think that if he had found an hg. E or J he would have certainly published them?
I use irony, as I am usual to do, but I am very serious . . .

I have wondered about that myself. I seem to remember that a few years ago there was some controversy about testing the royal mummies, as if those in the know in Egypt had something to hide.

It would be rather embarrassing to them to have to admit that their pharaohs were R1b of some kind.

That would also be quite a blow to the Afrocentrists here in the USA.
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« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2010, 09:25:17 PM »

Is 3000 years in the ball-park for R1B entering the Isles?

What is R1b doing in North Africa with ancient Egyptians at that time?
« Last Edit: February 18, 2010, 09:27:30 PM by OConnor » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2010, 09:34:53 PM »

Is 3000 years in the ball-park for R1B entering the Isles?

What is R1b doing in North Africa with ancient Egyptians at that time?

Someone on Rootsweb mentioned that Amenhotep's line was regarded as an "outsider" line and that perhaps it was Hittite in origin. Someone else mentioned the Hyksos, but I think they were earlier than Amenhotep's time.
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« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2010, 11:36:35 PM »

Follow up from Rootsweb (http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2010-02/1266545829):

Quote
List,

For all those questioning whether the screenshots in the video are "stock
samples" or default results from the AmpF\STR Yfiler kit, another clue has
been sleuthed out. My friend Gary Felix, from the Mexico DNA Project, asked
me about the wording at the top far left seen at 01:53 into the video. I
looked at it again and believe it reads as follows: "AmIII(20)_u_0.5Liz". I
wasn't sure if this could be referring to the AmpF\STR Yfiler kit or to the
name Amenhotep III as some abbreviated filename. Gary's question prompted me
to look again for a filename in the results above that. Lo and behold, at
01:55 in the video, the entry above had a name of "KV55(25)_5_572608" if I
read correctly. This apparently refers to Akhenaten (KV55) as revealed in
the published study. These two particular results are for markers DYS456 and
DYS389i and the fact that there are "filenames" referencing Amenhotep III
and Akhenaten speaks greatly for these being genuine results and not some
"sample" or default screenshot. It turns out that they did not get a strong
result for DYS456 on Amenhotep III although you can see the slight start of
a peak at 15 and this would match, along with the DYS389i=13, those for
Akhenaten. So my hat goes off to Gary for nudging me along into further
sleuthing. I think in time, hopefully soon, the truth will be revealed.

Here is the link to the video again should you need it.
http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/king-tut-unwrapped-king-tuts-paternal-line.html

Robert Tarín

Looks like the video is the real deal, and if Robert interpreted the numbers right, it sure looks like Amenhotep's line was R1b1b2, perhaps even R1b1b2a!  I sure hope someone has plans to do a full deep-clade R test on Tutty-Boy so we can put an end to the speculation.  :o)
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« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2010, 12:02:30 AM »

I saw that! There is some nice detective work going on there. Here is the foot deformity under investigation in the mummies.

http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/king-tut-unwrapped-family-deformities.html
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« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2010, 10:33:05 PM »

Follow up from Rootsweb (http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2010-02/1266545829):

Quote
List,

For all those questioning whether the screenshots in the video are "stock
samples" or default results from the AmpF\STR Yfiler kit, another clue has
been sleuthed out. My friend Gary Felix, from the Mexico DNA Project, asked
me about the wording at the top far left seen at 01:53 into the video. I
looked at it again and believe it reads as follows: "AmIII(20)_u_0.5Liz". I
wasn't sure if this could be referring to the AmpF\STR Yfiler kit or to the
name Amenhotep III as some abbreviated filename. Gary's question prompted me
to look again for a filename in the results above that. Lo and behold, at
01:55 in the video, the entry above had a name of "KV55(25)_5_572608" if I
read correctly. This apparently refers to Akhenaten (KV55) as revealed in
the published study. These two particular results are for markers DYS456 and
DYS389i and the fact that there are "filenames" referencing Amenhotep III
and Akhenaten speaks greatly for these being genuine results and not some
"sample" or default screenshot. It turns out that they did not get a strong
result for DYS456 on Amenhotep III although you can see the slight start of
a peak at 15 and this would match, along with the DYS389i=13, those for
Akhenaten. So my hat goes off to Gary for nudging me along into further
sleuthing. I think in time, hopefully soon, the truth will be revealed.

Here is the link to the video again should you need it.
http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/king-tut-unwrapped-king-tuts-paternal-line.html

Robert Tarín

Looks like the video is the real deal, and if Robert interpreted the numbers right, it sure looks like Amenhotep's line was R1b1b2, perhaps even R1b1b2a!  I sure hope someone has plans to do a full deep-clade R test on Tutty-Boy so we can put an end to the speculation.  :o)

Whoa!

That's about all I can say. I need a shot of vodka and a comfortable seat.
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« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2010, 08:52:01 AM »

So, it looks like that video footage was of Tut's authentic pharaoh-gram. :-)
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« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2010, 10:03:16 AM »

That is pretty neat-o.
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« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2010, 11:15:21 AM »

That is pretty neat-o.

It sure is!
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« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2010, 03:56:49 AM »

Great job Bob Tarin!

A question: Are Tut's 10-marker matches with two R1b1b2 guys on ySearch good enough to suggest that he was also from this sub-clade? I thought a deep-clade test SNP would be the surest bet.

Another question: R1b1b2 presence in West Asia is said to be around 5.5%. Any guesses what would genetic drift have done to it 3,000 years ago? In other words, could today's frequencey distribution figures be representative of three millenia?
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« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2010, 11:02:03 AM »

snp's are the way to go.

ftdna predicts your haplo group once you get a 12 sequence, much the same as these people have predicted Tut's group.

So does this point towards Turkey as the R1b1b2 homeland?
Could some R1b1* have arrived in Europe as Phoenicians?
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« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2010, 11:39:11 AM »

snp's are the way to go.

ftdna predicts your haplo group once you get a 12 sequence, much the same as these people have predicted Tut's group.

So does this point towards Turkey as the R1b1b2 homeland?
Could some R1b1* have arrived in Europe as Phoenicians?
Most of what I've read on Phoenicians is they were a heavy  of some J2 types along with a little T sprinkled in.  There are "matches" of haplotype patterns with J2 and T between some of the old Phoenician colony locations (i.e. Cadiz, Spain) and Lebanon (the supposed home base of Phoenicia.)

My question is when did chariots start appearing in Egypt?  David Anthony thinks chariots were first developed in the Pontic Steppes and to the north.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2010, 03:25:00 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2010, 12:08:09 PM »

So does this point towards Turkey as the R1b1b2 homeland?
Could some R1b1* have arrived in Europe as Phoenicians?

A latest paper A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for European Paternal Lineages, Patricia Balaresque et al, Jan 2010 concludes the source of R1b1b2 as Turkey, with a Neolithic spread mostly into Europe and to a much lesser degree into West Asia.

Quote: R1b1b2 was carried as a rapidly expanding lineage from the Near East via Anatolia to the western fringe of Europe during the Neolithic. Such mutations arising at the front of a wave of expansion have a high probability of surviving and being propagated, and can reach high frequencies far from their source. Our interpretation of the history of hgR1b1b2 now makes Europe a prime example of how expansion of a Y-chromosomal lineage tends to accompany technological and cultural change.
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« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2010, 02:34:09 PM »

I think i skimmed over a news article that related J with the Phoenicians. I remember some people wondering if they descended from them.

My thinking is.. Phonecia is directly between Egypt and the Hittites in Turkey.
The Hittites were an Indo-Euro group. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites  
I believe there could have been R1b's around there back then. Obviously there was one.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2010, 02:34:45 PM by OConnor » Logged

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« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2010, 12:33:14 AM »

I found Table 3 posted at the first link interesting, also. 

http://forum.egyptiandreams.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=4848&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/303/7/667?home

Scoliosis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scoliosis

kyphoscoliosis

(Spinal deformity combining sideways curvature and hunching forward of the upper part of the spine)

Table 3. Annomalies and Diseases in This Collection of 18th-Dynasty Mummies

Other Malformations:

Tutankhamun (KV62) - mild kyphoscoliosis

Tutankhamum kindred:

Thuya (KV46) - severe kyphoscoliosis
Akhenaten (KV55) - cleft palate, scoliosis
Amenhotep III (KV35) - Clubfoot
KV35YL - Scoliosis
Tiye (KV35EL) - Mild Scoliosis
Fetus 2 (KV62) - Mild Scoliosis
KV21A - Scoliosis, Clubfeet
KV21B - Scoliosis, Clubfeet
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« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2010, 12:45:58 PM »

Some of those ailments can be found in my family, and relatives.
Perhaps many R1b people have related health issues.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

I was looking at chariot use at wiki

Egypt
The chariot, together with the horse itself, was introduced to Egypt by the Hyksos invaders in the 16th century BC and undoubtedly contributed to their military success. In the remains of Egyptian and Assyrian art there are numerous representations of chariots, from which it may be seen with what richness they were sometimes ornamented. The chariots of the Egyptians and Assyrians, with whom the bow was the principal arm of attack, were richly mounted with quivers full of arrows. The Egyptians invented the yoke saddle for their chariot horses in ca. 1500 BC. The best preserved examples of Egyptian chariots are the four specimens from the tomb of Tutankhamun  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariot
« Last Edit: February 22, 2010, 01:03:37 PM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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