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y24
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« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2010, 11:13:25 AM »

L21 has quite a head start on P312*, what with the preponderance of Scots/Irish origin testers in America. Not that I begrudge L21 the head start, good for you! This has really helped with the swift and exciting discovery of L21 subclades and defining SNPs.

P312*, however, is more common in the less well covered areas of eastern Britain and Europe.

When any P312* cousins of L21 are found in Europe things might become clearer. I remember when all non U152/U106 were once seen as an undifferentiated R1b mass. There could be clades of P312 that are younger than L21.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2010, 02:06:51 PM »

One thing that has puzzled me for ages is that L21 has a distribution in the isles (and perhaps France and Germany too) that suggests it was there before S116*.  Just because S116* has no identified downstream SNPs does not mean that it is more ancient in every location.
 
I agree and that is the point Goldenhind made earlier.  P312*/S116* is really a set of unknown clades. Some may be older TMRCA's that L21, some may be younger.  In any case, they are brothers of a type. I haven't looked very hard at the R-U152 downstream clades, but those might be important too since R-U152 is significant on the Eurasian Continent*.  Are there clear geographic affinites for U152's L2, L4 and L20?
Quote from: alan trowel hands

I think it is clear that L21 spread in a trajectory that led especially from SW Germany/east-central France across France towards the NW and by doing so may have by-passed (or at least been much weaker in the way it filtered in) areas to the north and south.
I may be placing too much credence on Hubert and on the natural drainage of the Rhine into the Low Countries (essentially Benelux), but it seems like an old migration from the middle/upper Rhine would have passed  through the Low Countries to southeastern portion of the British Isles.  If that is the migration route, then it matches Hubert's view of the Goidels, implying that the Goidels carried a lot of L21+ with them.

I speculate that the weaker appearance of L21+ in the Low Countries is really just be a later period diluting/pushing effect of I and R-U106 peoples into the area from the east and north. Do you think that is likely?

* I find may self referring to the "continent" frequently assuming we are all talking about the same thing, but I should not forget that the Yanks used to call their army the "Continental Army." LOL.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2010, 04:54:00 PM »

Mike

I think the issue over whether the decrease in L21 in the east is dillution due to later settlement is one of the most important in British Isles genetics. I suspect its not that clear cut.  I thnk the answer may be in the Belgium.  Like Britain, Belgium became split between Germanic settlers and pre-Germanics.  I think it has been ascertained that the overall R1b1b2 count is similar in both Flemish and French speaking Belgium.  There is no big divide in crude haplogroup count across the divide between the French speaking Walloons and Germanic Flemings.  I also suspect the forms of R1b1b2 may be similar but this is just from hints on project maps and a study of the Flemings and is less certain.  So, I suspect that is evidence that the Belgic tribes may have already had the much increased levels of U106, S116*, U152 etc before the real Germanic influx and that the latter did not much change the genetics.  

Overall, the Belgians sound rather like the English in terms of haplotype count and R1b1b2 clades.  I suspect that in both areas this is pre-Germanic.  South-east England and its peoples were stated by the Romans to be similar to the Belgic tribes of the continent and this similarity could go back much further in time than the Iron Age.  That would mean that England or at least its south-east was already similar to the low countries and different from the rest of the British Isles in pre-Germanic times.  I think that this was true to some extent is certain and it is only a question of to what degree.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 05:00:14 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2010, 06:30:49 PM »

In terms of the continental big picture I always think in my minds eye of various P310 groups heading along river valleys, SNPs occuring as they went and chance playing a big part in which proportions of each clade went one way or the other.  I suspect that L21 happend in a location that linked the river systems of the Middle Rhine, the Main, the Mosselle, the Seinne and Loire and perhaps the upper Rhone but its impact was lesser in the Lower Rhine, Meuse and to the east and so was never that common in what was to become Belgic Gaul.  In this imagining of it all, the R1b1b2 facing the British Isles would from the start (before R1b1b2 had crossed to the isles) have varied from and L21-rich area west of the Seine to an area where L21 was less common and U106 and U152 (and perhaps S116*) was higher east of the Seine in NE France, Belgium, Holland etc.  This could have led to parts of the isles closest to the area east of the Seine being settled by peoples from that area and parts of the isles closest to the areas west of the Seine being settled by people from there.  If that happened today then the pattern we see in Britain and Ireland is pretty much as you would expect.  In other words you do not per se have to see two different periods of settlement (and a dilution) to explain isles R1b1b2 patterns.  One single period of settlement from a broad front from Brittany to the Rhine could have produced the pattern see seen today.   That certainly is one working hypothesis. 
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rms2
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« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2010, 07:10:23 PM »

One thing that has puzzled me for ages is that L21 has a distribution in the isles (and perhaps France and Germany too) that suggests it was there before S116*.  Just because S116* has no identified downstream SNPs does not mean that it is more ancient in every location.  I think it is clear that L21 spread in a trajectory that led especially from SW Germany/east-central France across France towards the NW and by doing so may have by-passed (or at least been much weaker in the way it filtered in) areas to the north and south.

Judging from the maps, L21 is pretty evenly distributed throughout England, whereas there is less R-P312* there and it does tend to gravitate a bit more toward the east of England (except that thus far there is more R-P312* in Cornwall than there is R-L21; go figure). Where the obvious difference shows up is in Wales, Ireland and Scotland. There doesn't seem to be that much R-P312* in any of those places, but as you well know, there is plenty of R-L21.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2010, 08:07:49 PM »

I have a feeling Cornwall could be a freak result and the presence of one of Europe's most important early tin mining areas could definately cause some oddities there.  Overall though, I think the idea that Scotland, Wales and Ireland can be seen as genetic proxies for the 'lost' pre-Anglo-Saxon Britons in south-east England has to be questioned.  Classical writers specifically state there were differences culturally and phenotypically between different tribes in Britain including ones in northern Scotland, SE Wales, the Belgic tribes in southern England and more generally a contrast between the (south/east) coastal tribes and those of the 'interior'.  They even specifically link these to Belgic northern Gaul (on pretty solid ground) and (on much less solid ground) linked the Silures of SE Wales with Iberia and the Caledonians of northern Scotland with Germany.  I am not saying that these are necessarily linked by differences in y-DNA lineages but it is a warning to question the Scots/Irish/Welsh as proxys for lost Britons in England.  
« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 08:09:23 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2010, 08:30:42 PM »

maybe it can be said that in the British Isles (and perhaps Northern Europe as a whole) S116* has more of a resemblance to U106 than L21?
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2010, 05:20:33 PM »

It's been a good day for the R-P312 and Subclades Project so far: yet another Polish R-P312* just joined a few minutes ago. The ancestral surname is Cenkier (also given as Cezer), Ysearch C9KYF, from very near the Slovak border, probably in the Carpathians, judging from the position on the map.

This one also has no close matches at 37 markers (he has just 37 markers).
I just been contaced by yet another Polish P312*. Apparently he is not eligible to join the project as he tested with 23andme, but his ysearch ID is ZR8ZJ. He can't understand why people have told him he must be Irish!
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2010, 05:26:01 PM »

maybe it can be said that in the British Isles (and perhaps Northern Europe as a whole) S116* has more of a resemblance to U106 than L21?
I think this is difficult to say for sure, because U106 testing has about a five year head start on testing over P312/S116*, but I would be inclined to say that S116/P312* has a more ubiquitous presence over all of Europe than any other R1b subclade. For instance, I don't believe there is a great deal of U106 or U152 in Iberia.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2010, 07:27:35 PM »

Tims MRCA calculations for both U152 an S116* point to a spread from eastern Europe into the west-central area and then the isles BUT southern Europe (especialy Italy) only recieving these clades far later in a different phase.  Anatole Klysov on the other hand calculated the reverse i.e. that R1b1b2 hopped along the Med. via north Africa to Iberia then spread north.  How could two calculations of essentially the same thing come to such completely opposite conclusions? 

It really does make you wonder sometimes if we are simply trying to hide from the basic truth - we do not have anything like an adequate pan-European (and SW Asian) sample of R1b1b2 tested for an adequte number of STR markers and resolved to the full extent of modern SNP availability.  Entire nations across half of Europe may have less than a handfull of people answering that description.   
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rms2
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« Reply #35 on: February 18, 2010, 02:57:39 PM »

maybe it can be said that in the British Isles (and perhaps Northern Europe as a whole) S116* has more of a resemblance to U106 than L21?

If you look at the U106 map for the UK and Ireland at the R-U106 Project, you will see that U106 is pretty ubiquitous throughout England. I don't see a real eastern concentration or southeastern concentration. There doesn't seem to be much U106 in Wales, however.

There does seem to be more U106 on the east coast of Ireland than elsewhere in Ireland.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #36 on: February 18, 2010, 05:07:57 PM »

maybe it can be said that in the British Isles (and perhaps Northern Europe as a whole) S116* has more of a resemblance to U106 than L21?

If you look at the U106 map for the UK and Ireland at the R-U106 Project, you will see that U106 is pretty ubiquitous throughout England. I don't see a real eastern concentration or southeastern concentration. There doesn't seem to be much U106 in Wales, however.

There does seem to be more U106 on the east coast of Ireland than elsewhere in Ireland.
Interesting. I hadn't looked at it for some time. I see it's still very rare in Iberia, and in the southernmost portions of Europe in general. I think it bares out my observation that P312* is the most ubiquitous R1b subclade in Europe, though I'm not certain one should put too much reliance on these project maps.
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rms2
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« Reply #37 on: February 18, 2010, 08:07:03 PM »


Interesting. I hadn't looked at it for some time. I see it's still very rare in Iberia, and in the southernmost portions of Europe in general. I think it bares out my observation that P312* is the most ubiquitous R1b subclade in Europe, though I'm not certain one should put too much reliance on these project maps.

They're all we've got, unfortunately, since good studies of R1b1b2 subclades in the Old Country are in short supply or non-existent.

One has to keep in mind the British Isles bias of the database and that the maps are going to reflect North American immigration patterns.

Some countries are drastically under represented, especially those in Eastern Europe, but even some Western European countries are seriously under represented, like France, Belgium and Austria.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2010, 08:09:29 PM by rms2 » Logged

alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #38 on: February 19, 2010, 01:54:52 PM »

Tim’s MRCA intraclade variance calculations for S116* and U152 are consistent in showing those clades are far younger in southern Europe, especially Italy.  So, it does look like S116 took a central European route and only much later spilled into southern Europe.  The U152 and S116 also show an east-west trend.  It also looks like Scandinavia, like southern Europe received its S116 late.  So, overall, Tim's data would suggest a movement from Eastern Europe (somewhere) westwards along a central European trajectory before moving to France and the isles.  Italy and Scandinavia seem to have received their S116 clades in an entirely different and much later period.  I have asked Tim to look at U106 to see if it also follows this pattern. 

It seems weird that this has not been looked at before.  I can say that I am somewhat surprised by the results.  For Italy, it suggests that it received two completely different R1b1b2 inputs- one (probably earlier) from the east consisting of forms upstream of P310 and a second very late (the Celts?) input of S116 from west-central Europe.   
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #39 on: February 19, 2010, 02:53:51 PM »

maybe it can be said that in the British Isles (and perhaps Northern Europe as a whole) S116* has more of a resemblance to U106 than L21?

If you look at the U106 map for the UK and Ireland at the R-U106 Project, you will see that U106 is pretty ubiquitous throughout England. I don't see a real eastern concentration or southeastern concentration. There doesn't seem to be much U106 in Wales, however.

There does seem to be more U106 on the east coast of Ireland than elsewhere in Ireland.
Interesting. I hadn't looked at it for some time. I see it's still very rare in Iberia, and in the southernmost portions of Europe in general. I think it bares out my observation that P312* is the most ubiquitous R1b subclade in Europe, though I'm not certain one should put too much reliance on these project maps.
I think your own prior comment, "it is a mistake to consider P312* as an homogenous entity", must be kept in mind.  It might really be that P312* unknown A, P312* unknown B, etc. each have unique patterns.

I'm not that up on P312* clusters.  What is P312* North-South's range of significance?  What other major genetic clusters of P312* can be found?
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« Reply #40 on: February 19, 2010, 05:31:11 PM »

maybe it can be said that in the British Isles (and perhaps Northern Europe as a whole) S116* has more of a resemblance to U106 than L21?

If you look at the U106 map for the UK and Ireland at the R-U106 Project, you will see that U106 is pretty ubiquitous throughout England. I don't see a real eastern concentration or southeastern concentration. There doesn't seem to be much U106 in Wales, however.

There does seem to be more U106 on the east coast of Ireland than elsewhere in Ireland.
Interesting. I hadn't looked at it for some time. I see it's still very rare in Iberia, and in the southernmost portions of Europe in general. I think it bares out my observation that P312* is the most ubiquitous R1b subclade in Europe, though I'm not certain one should put too much reliance on these project maps.
I think your own prior comment, "it is a mistake to consider P312* as an homogenous entity", must be kept in mind.  It might really be that P312* unknown A, P312* unknown B, etc. each have unique patterns.

I'm not that up on P312* clusters.  What is P312* North-South's range of significance?  What other major genetic clusters of P312* can be found?
Yes, you're quite correct, the ubiquitous nature of P312* may be due at least in part to the inclusion of unidentified subclades which have completely different distributions.
As to genetic clusters within P312*, no one has done comparable work to what you have done with L21. I have looked at Nordtvedt's clusters to see if cluster members fall primarily within definite R1b subclades. There is no doubt that the his north/south clusters, of which there are two variants, are within P312*. Obviously it is found in both northern and southern Europe, hence its name.
I also have no doubt that Nordtvedt's R1b-Nor(se) cluster, which according to Ken is widespread in Scandinavia, is also within P312*. As I have said, one member of the cluster tested positive for a new SNP L238 at 23andme, but my attempt to get FTDNA to test another member of the cluster for the same SNP has apparently gone nowhere.
Nordtvedt's R1b-Ub cluster remains a mystery. The only L176.2* so far identified (Plies from northern Germany) is a good match to that cluster, but so are several L21 individuals, as well as myself, but my results were negative. The Ub cluster is also found throughout Europe, hence its designation (for ubiquitous).
Vince T. once made a wheel diagram trying to locate clusters within P312* for members who had tested for 67 markers.
If I get time, I might look into Nordtvedt's central and eastern Europe clusters, and see what subclades they appear to match.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 05:35:32 PM by GoldenHind » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #41 on: February 19, 2010, 07:46:17 PM »

I understand that it would be desirable to try to remove any downstream subclades and clearly later cliusters from S116* to make it more of a clade rather than paragroup.  However, as far as I understand the variance is picking up the maximum extent of variation of S116* and the inclusion of upstream clusters and subclades (identified or not) surely cannot make the overall S116*variance any more or less.  At least that seems logical to me but I am not mathematical.  Variance is governed by the maximum variation in STRs rather than simply an average isnt it??
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