World Families Forums - Where and when has emerged P312?

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
October 02, 2014, 10:14:39 AM
Home Help Search Login Register

+  World Families Forums
|-+  General Forums - Note: You must Be Logged In to post. Anyone can browse.
| |-+  R1b General (Moderator: rms2)
| | |-+  Where and when has emerged P312?
« previous next »
Pages: [1] Go Down Print
Author Topic: Where and when has emerged P312?  (Read 829 times)
secherbernard
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 155


« on: February 08, 2010, 03:34:50 PM »

Are there any clues which give informations about where and when P312 has emerged ?
Logged

YDNA: R-DF13+ L69+ DYS464X: cccc.3
mtDNA: U6a7a1
mtDNA of my father: U5a2c
YDNA of my maternal uncle: I1*
Ysearch and Mitosearch: UE9BU
Ysearch of my maternal uncle: CEC59

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2010, 07:33:23 PM »

I think one has to look for P310*, since both P312 and U106 would have emerged from an ancestral P310* predecessor. P312 probably originated where we find the most P310* or perhaps in a transition zone from P310* to P312 and U106.

I think it all happened pretty fast, since P312 and U106 are supposed to be about the same age.
Logged

vtilroe
Project Coordinator
Old Hand
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 150


« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2010, 10:54:49 PM »

The grouping of P310, P311, L11 and L52 seems to indicate a bottle-neck of sorts, probably spanning 100-200 years or more.  I think the thing to do would be to compare the distribution of R-L51* and R-P310* to get a feel for where  P312 may have come from.

Right now I think it could be anywhere between the Alps (northern Italy / southern Germany) and the Balkans, though I do lean towards the upper Danube corridor.
Logged

YSearch & MitoSearch: 2GXWW


yDNA: R-U106*


mtDNA: U5a1a1 (Genbank# GQ368895)


R-P312-WTY Project Admin http://tinyurl.com/daertg

GoldenHind
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 731


« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2010, 04:23:20 PM »

The grouping of P310, P311, L11 and L52 seems to indicate a bottle-neck of sorts, probably spanning 100-200 years or more.  I think the thing to do would be to compare the distribution of R-L51* and R-P310* to get a feel for where  P312 may have come from.

Right now I think it could be anywhere between the Alps (northern Italy / southern Germany) and the Balkans, though I do lean towards the upper Danube corridor.
While I concede its just an educated guess, I favor a more easterly location- ie the lower Danube or perhaps even Anatolia or the Black Sea/Caspian area. P312 may well have existed for some time before its rapid expansion, which might have radiated out from a more westerly location than where it was born.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2010, 04:29:16 PM by GoldenHind » Logged
IALEM
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 267


« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2010, 09:09:55 AM »

I see that U-106 has a mainly Northern European distribution, and that while it is present together with P-312, more to the south of  Europe it is basically absent while P-312 is present in great strength, I wonder, doesn´t that indicate that U-106 was born after P-312? that some P-312 groups spread before U-106 was born, and then it was born in an areaa in which P-312 was already present?
Logged

Y-DNA L21+


MDKA Lope de Arriçabalaga, born c. 1390 in Azcoitia, Basque Country

alan trowel hands.
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2012


« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2010, 06:52:30 PM »

I see that U-106 has a mainly Northern European distribution, and that while it is present together with P-312, more to the south of  Europe it is basically absent while P-312 is present in great strength, I wonder, doesn´t that indicate that U-106 was born after P-312? that some P-312 groups spread before U-106 was born, and then it was born in an areaa in which P-312 was already present?

I do remember someone recently doing a variance calculation that made U106 quite a lot younger than S116 but I cannot remember who it was and it seemed out of step with other calculations previously made.  

I think though the overlay theory needs more evidence.  As I posted, Belgium is interesting in that it might (this needs further study) suggest that the real genetic division was not the Celtic/Roman-Germanic border running through Belgium but (I would suggest)  was the non-linguistic Celtic vs Belgic Gaul divide further west along the Seine. The later may be the real division between the high L21/low U106 area and the low-L21/high U106 area.  If this difference is pre-Germanic on the continent and essentially corresponds with an intra Celtic division between Celtic Gauls and Belgic Gauls then this could very well also be true in Britain where the divide would have been between Britons and Belgi.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 06:54:26 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
Pages: [1] Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


SEO light theme by © Mustang forums. Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC

Page created in 0.081 seconds with 19 queries.