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alan trowel hands.
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« on: February 08, 2010, 03:19:17 PM »

Can anyone summarise or give some sort of breakdown of Italian R1b1b2.  I am curious about any P310 and further upstream forms.  Are these upstream forms in Italy signs that it was the major stepping stone between the SE Europe/.SW Asia and the west? Or are the upstream forms simply due to the Roman empire and people moving to Italy from SE Europe and SW Asia in the Roman period? 
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2010, 05:37:34 PM »

This is what Rich has thought and written. I have said many times that it is strange that everybody came to Italy, leaving a vacuum where they came from.
Italy has R1b1* (3 over 5 in the world in the last paper of Cruciani)
Italy has the subclades of R1b1-V88: R1b1a-M18, R1b1a-V7 and V-35 (Cruciani)
Italy has R1b1b2-M269
Italy has R1b1b2-L23+/L150-
Italy has R1b1b2-L23+/L150+
This was the time, I think, that this haplotype migrated out of Italy to all directions.
There is some breach in the Klyosov theory of the MRCA of these haplotypes: see the last posts of Ken Nordtvedt on “Genealogy-dna”: he is trying to do a mathematical form to my old theory of the mutations around the modal. I think that R1b1b2 is old almost than the Younger Dryas.
I am asking that someone tests the Rozen’s SNPs, or if he has done it that he publishes the results.
The subclades downstream R-L150+ can have been born out of Italy and come back in a second time, except the most recent ones: R-L21, R-M153, R-M167.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 09:30:56 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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rms2
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« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2010, 07:27:51 PM »

I think Italy could have been a steppingstone on the path of R1b1b2 into Western Europe after entering it from SW Asia during the Neolithic, but I definitely do NOT believe there was any R1b in Europe during the Younger Dryas, and certainly no R1b1b2.

I would like to hear Vince Vizachero summarize what he knows about the upstream R1b1b2 clades. As I recall from what he has written on Rootsweb, they track from SE Europe and transition to majority P310+ (which is by far mostly P312+ and U106+) as one moves northwest.
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F.E.C.
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« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2010, 06:55:09 AM »

Does anyone have this? I'd like to see it because, with regard to R1b, it confirms the Emilia-Romagna figure of the North Italy project.

Slow and fast evolving markers typing in Modena males (North Italy).

Ferri G, Alù M, Corradini B, Radheshi E, Beduschi G.

Department of Diagnostic and Laboratory Service and Legal Medicine, Section of Legal Medicine, University of Modena and Reggio Emilia, Italy. gianmarco.ferri@unimore.it

One hundred thirty male individuals, strictly selected for their geographical origin and for typical regional surnames were submitted to the analysis. 17 STRs (short tandem repeats) loci and 19 SNPs binary markers (single nucleotide polymorphisms) of male-specific region of the Y chromosome (MSY) were typed to well characterize the selected population of Modena province. The availability of joint distribution of MSY haplotypes and haplogroup frequencies is becoming an important tool for both human evolutionary studies and forensic investigation, but large databases of complete Y-lineages are needed for a better understanding of the power of the combined use of Y-specific polymorphisms. A total of 129 haplotypes and 9 haplogroups were found and R1b haplogroup with a frequency of 67.7% was the most frequent, as expected because of the geographical location of the sample (Northwestern Italy). The Modena Y-lineages (STRs and SNPs independently) were also compared with published data of other neighbouring populations' samples.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2010, 06:56:24 AM by F.E.C. » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2010, 02:42:43 PM »

That is a very high total in north Italy.  That I think makes the high R1b1b2 total there unlikely to be explained by historic period movements of Germans.  Judging by modern patterns in their areas of origin it seems extremely unlikely that the Germanic tribes like the Langobardi and Goths would have been anywhere near that high in R1b1b2.  If anything, an input from those tribes would surely have reduced the R1b1b2 totals in north Italy.

The total is much higher than central Europe on the other side of the Alps.  It is true that this area was settled by Gauls and that France does have as high an R1b1b2 count but I still find it almost impossible to believe most of Italian R1b1b2 is down to the Gauls.  I suspect it is a lot older than that but it is a very interesting subject.    
« Last Edit: February 09, 2010, 02:58:16 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2010, 03:03:41 PM »

I don't know. I suspect just the other side of the Alps in Switzerland, SW Germany and SE France the R1b1b2 frequency would be pretty high, perhaps comparable to that in Northern Italy. It may not be quite up to the level of 67%, but the decline could be fairly gradual, say 60% in Switzerland and 55-60% in SW Germany/SE France.
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OConnor
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« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2010, 04:23:06 PM »

That is a very high total in north Italy.  That I think makes the high R1b1b2 total there unlikely to be explained by historic period movements of Germans.  Judging by modern patterns in their areas of origin it seems extremely unlikely that the Germanic tribes like the Langobardi and Goths would have been anywhere near that high in R1b1b2.  If anything, an input from those tribes would surely have reduced the R1b1b2 totals in north Italy.

The total is much higher than central Europe on the other side of the Alps.  It is true that this area was settled by Gauls and that France does have as high an R1b1b2 count but I still find it almost impossible to believe most of Italian R1b1b2 is down to the Gauls.  I suspect it is a lot older than that but it is a very interesting subject.    

Northern Italy was part of the Frankish kingdom. Of which France is named after.
I believe there is a good chance they left a good genetic mark since defeating the Lombards in 774.
I would expect more continental that Isle R1B..if there is a difference

« Last Edit: February 09, 2010, 04:32:33 PM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2010, 05:06:51 PM »

   
[/quote]

Northern Italy was part of the Frankish kingdom. Of which France is named after.
I believe there is a good chance they left a good genetic mark since defeating the Lombards in 774.
I would expect more continental that Isle R1B..if there is a difference


[/quote]

Ridicolous. This does mean not knowing history and genetics. Italy lacks completely R-L21 and the impact of Lombards, Franks etc. was negligible. Read the last paper on Sardinia and Corsica and you'll find where arose the most ancient R1b which peopled also your country.
You have only prejudices, proud and no knowledge of what really is worth: history, genetics, labs, data etc. etc.
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Maliclavelli


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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2010, 06:14:22 PM »

The Ostrogoths or Langobardi who invaded Italy originated in the places (the north-east of the Germanic world) where R1b1b2 would not be as high as north Italy today.  The Ostrogoths were destroyed by a very bloody 20 year campaign by the the emperor Justinian so I would imagine the Langobardi (Lombards) would be the main Germanic impact. 
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2010, 06:43:23 PM »

   

Northern Italy was part of the Frankish kingdom. Of which France is named after.
I believe there is a good chance they left a good genetic mark since defeating the Lombards in 774.
I would expect more continental that Isle R1B..if there is a difference


[/quote]

Ridicolous. This does mean not knowing history and genetics. Italy lacks completely R-L21 and the impact of Lombards, Franks etc. was negligible. Read the last paper on Sardinia and Corsica and you'll find where arose the most ancient R1b which peopled also your country.
You have only prejudices, proud and no knowledge of what really is worth: history, genetics, labs, data etc. etc.
[/quote]

Relax. Not everyone who reads these forums is a population geneticist.  Mr. O'Connor's business is what's driving this industry, so have a little respect. Last time I checked, I don't see your name on any peer-reviewed, scientific journals. But maybe your forte is cynicism.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


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NealtheRed
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« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2010, 06:46:22 PM »

The Ostrogoths or Langobardi who invaded Italy originated in the places (the north-east of the Germanic world) where R1b1b2 would not be as high as north Italy today.  The Ostrogoths were destroyed by a very bloody 20 year campaign by the the emperor Justinian so I would imagine the Langobardi (Lombards) would be the main Germanic impact. 

I always thought the Lombards lived somewhere near Lower Saxony. Maybe I am wrong.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2010, 06:58:04 PM »

The Ostrogoths or Langobardi who invaded Italy originated in the places (the north-east of the Germanic world) where R1b1b2 would not be as high as north Italy today.  The Ostrogoths were destroyed by a very bloody 20 year campaign by the the emperor Justinian so I would imagine the Langobardi (Lombards) would be the main Germanic impact. 

I always thought the Lombards lived somewhere near Lower Saxony. Maybe I am wrong.


Think it was the Lower Elbe and beyond but I am not an expert.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2010, 07:25:17 PM »

NealtheRed writes:
Relax. Not everyone who reads these forums is a population geneticist.  Mr. O'Connor's business is what's driving this industry, so have a little respect. Last time I checked, I don't see your name on any peer-reviewed, scientific journals. But maybe your forte is cynicism.

   

My ancestor Nicolò Machiavelli said that what is worth is “la realtà effettuale” and not “la imaginazione di essa”. If your mtDNA comes from Italy I think that also you should pretend more respect for a country peopled from at least 45,000 years from people who comes from a country peopled from 4,500.
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Maliclavelli


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rms2
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« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2010, 08:00:38 PM »

I wouldn't say Italy is completely lacking in L21. There is some there already (there's argiedude, for one), and we know the one L21+ P66+ guy is Italian. How is it the University of Arizona just stumbled on him if L21 is sooo rare in Italy? Italy is under tested, and Northern Italy is especially under tested.

I think more L21 will show up there, probably not as frequently as U152, but it's there.
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OConnor
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« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2010, 11:04:38 PM »

I do not believe all R1b1b2.. in Northern Italy are from the Franks.
I do believe the Franks left a genetic mark.
I suspect the Franks smeared an extra helping of R1b1b2 along the Alps from Switzerland as far as Italy on the other side of the Alps.

There were other known invasions from people north of the Alps since the 3rd century. Gaulish conquerors, divided in major tribes as the Boii, the Taurini, Cenomani. Well before the Franks..and well before surnames.

Julius Ceasar granted Roman Citizenship to the norther (Po Valley) lands.





 
« Last Edit: February 09, 2010, 11:25:00 PM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2010, 04:43:10 AM »

NealtheRed writes: “Last time I checked, I don't see your name on any peer-reviewed, scientific journals”.

I wrote books in other fields: poetry, Literary criticism, philosophy etc. But if you esteem the said peer reviews, read please the papers of the most sponsored scholars many of us (me, Argiedude, Maju etc.) have broken in pieces on many forums. We haven’t funds neither for buying the fee-papers. We have only our knowledge in many fields: more than a dozen of languages (ancient and modern), history (whose I am a teacher), glottology etc. etc.
I have named these famous scholars  “banausoi”, which was the thinking of my great teacher of philosophy at Florence University: Giulio Preti.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2010, 06:55:14 AM »

I think more L21 will show up there, probably not as frequently as U152, but it's there.
2/23 R1b1b2 members of the North Italy project having a SNP test were L21+: so, if you're northern Italian and R1b1b2 you have about 8.7% chances to be L21+. This may be a signal of a non-insignificant presence of R-L21 in the region, although it isn't likely to be common.

My only remark in this sense: if the contribution of Northwestern European peoples (Gauls, Franks, etc.) was so huge to account for 67% of Modena's populace, we would expect to see much more L21 in northern Italy. Also, U152 is the most common SNP among North Italian R1b1b2 people, and as of today this marker seems to be very rare in the presumed homelands of the Ostrogoths and the Lombards.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2010, 08:18:53 AM »

Francesco, as I have said many times in the past, one of these R-L21 is of French origin, then not Italian. The other is the dear friend Argiedude, but his haplotype is very rare and ancient, that he could be not an immigrant but perhaps one of the most ancient Italians.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2010, 08:29:15 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2010, 08:49:26 AM »

Francesco, as I have said many times in the past, one of these R-L21 is of French origin, then not Italian.
Gioiello, as far as I can see (and as far as I've been told), his most distant yDNA ancestor is Piemontese. IMHO the fact his surname sounds French shouldn't be that important, since as you know many people (as well as many places) in Piemonte have a French-sounding name due to this region's proximity to France, but in fact they are Italian.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2010, 09:35:07 AM »

I demonstrated in another topic that he is a Waldensian come from France in recent times, then his surname is French because he is French. I found his town, who lived there, from where they came etc. etc.
We have only Argiedude as Italian and whose origin (as R-L21) must be explained. As I said, due to his haplotype, he could be not an immigrant but one of the most ancient Italians if R-L21 is almost ancient as I hypothesized when this SNP was discovered. Anyway it seems clear that also R-L21 was born in South Germany and not in the Isles, then, if it is ancient, it could be born in Italy too, and Argiedude to be one of the first R-L21 remained where this haplotype was born.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2010, 09:51:46 AM »

I demonstrated in another topic that he is a Waldensian come from France in recent times, then his surname is French because he is French. I found his town, who lived there, from where they came etc. etc.
I haven't seen it.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2010, 11:32:23 AM »

You can read the topic "Italian R-L21*" under this thread R1b1b2.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2010, 12:02:01 PM »

I agree that Bonnet is probably the descendant of French Waldensians, but I still think L21 will show up in some force in Italy, not as frequently as U152, but I don't think it will be rare there. It's just a matter of time and more Italian Deep Clade-R testing.
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« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2010, 01:12:06 PM »

You are describing the same mess Anatole describes. Peer review is only as good as the knowledge of your peer base. I say that the amateur on-line community is peer reviewing this field. And we found it not sufficient in basic scientific principles.     

“But if you esteem the said peer reviews, read please the papers of the most sponsored scholars many of us (me, Argiedude, Maju etc.) have broken in pieces on many forums.”

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2010-02/1265798979

“Tell me about it. :-)) Between us, all my prizes in science grew from trials and (mostly) errors. One can find several of my books on Amazon.com, and ALL of them were initiated by a mess which had ruled in those (different) areas of science and engineering, and by my desire to put that mess in a reasonable order. Here is the same story.

Sincerely,

Anatole Klyosov”
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