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Author Topic: L159.2: Britain to Ireland?  (Read 5072 times)
NealtheRed
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« on: January 23, 2010, 04:12:18 PM »

Since the Irish Sea cluster aggregates in Leinster and along southwestern Scotland/western Britain, what historical migrations into Leinster can best explain the existence of L159.2 there?
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« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2010, 10:32:51 AM »

Since the Irish Sea cluster aggregates in Leinster and along southwestern Scotland/western Britain, what historical migrations into Leinster can best explain the existence of L159.2 there?
This is just an area to investigate, not a answer.

The Cambro-Normans hit Southeast Ireland pretty hard circa 1170 AD. Perhaps that caused some scattering.

What's the TMRCA for the L159.2+ folks in SW Scotland/W Britain?  in Leinster? Perhaps there are some clues in understanding timeframes.
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« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2010, 10:37:26 AM »

Since the Irish Sea cluster aggregates in Leinster and along southwestern Scotland/western Britain, what historical migrations into Leinster can best explain the existence of L159.2 there?
This is just an area to investigate, not a answer.

The Cambro-Normans hit Southeast Ireland pretty hard circa 1170 AD. Perhaps that caused some scattering.

What's the TMRCA for the L159.2+ folks in SW Scotland/W Britain?  in Leinster? Perhaps there are some clues in understanding timeframes.

Of course, Cromwell hit Leinster pretty hard as well c. 1650.  Supposedly, though, the Irish of the time scattered to Connacht (if they weren't killed or sold into slavery to the West Indies.)  "To Hell or Connacht" was the directive.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2010, 03:57:06 PM »

I don't have any experience calculating any dates, so I would not know what the TMRCA is. It has been thrown around the Leinster group that the TMRCA is around 2000 years ago. I am not sure how that calculation is reached.
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OConnor
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« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2010, 09:05:39 PM »

Do I have an older L159.2 sequence.

I think we may find L159 in the Murphy Leinster Group. They resemble my str`s, and I have one 36-37 Murphy match.
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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2010, 09:32:19 PM »

There are no recorded major historical connections between that part of Ireland and that part of Scotland.  So, I would guess that suggests the link was before historical times. One thing that connects the two areas is the Dumnoni Iron Age tribal name.  The Damnoni were located in SW Scotland and Irish legends record among the ancestors of the Leinstermen the same name in Irish form 'Fir Domnain' meaning men of the Dumnoni tribe or men of the tribe of goddess Domnu.  The latter means goddess of the deep, probably a reference to the sea.  There was also a Dumnoni in Deven and Cornwall.  In fact the name Devon is a late form of the name Dumnonia. 

So, I just wonder if there was a group who had power up and down the Irish sea and may be responsible for the DNA link.  I also think its interesting that the pre-M222 group that some have described also are strongly represented in SW Scotland with the Irish representation being strongly Leinster orientated.  Finally, there is also the odd thing that SW Scotland and NW Ireland are the hotspots for M222.  SW Scotland has both M222 and pre-M222 which makes me think it may be the origin point of M222.  Regardless it is interesting that in NW Ireland the Fir Domnain were also linked to the area (north Connaught) in legend and in the Irish name Irus Domnain in the area.  Pardon my poor spellings BTW. I do not know how that all fits together but there seems to be something going on.  My guess is they was a dominant naval power in the Iron Age along the Irish Sea, perhaps with a few strongholds.  They are described in Irish legend as 'a mighty tribune' which suggests something like this to me.   
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OConnor
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« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2010, 10:10:43 AM »

Where in the N/W of Ireland are we talking when we say N/W Irish Model?
Where in the N/W is this hot spot?

I had wondered if M222 came into Ireland in the 1200's with the Gallowglass.
How wide is the spread of M222 in Ireland?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallowglass
The first record of gallowglass service under the Irish was in 1259, when Prince Aodh Ó Conchobhair of Connacht received a dowry of 160 Scottish warriors from the daughter of the King of the Hebrides. They were organised into groups known as a "Corrughadh", which consisted of about 100 men. In return for military service, gallowglass contingents were given land and settled in Irish lordships, where they were entitled to receive supplies from the local population. By 1512, there were reported to be fifty-nine groups throughout the country under the control of the Irish nobility. Though initially they were mercenaries, over time they settled and their ranks became filled with native Irish men.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

As for L159.2
There is a g/d of 20 (47/67) amonst L159.2+ people.
Is there a similar spread amonst M222 people?
Perhaps L159.2 is older than M222?

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

If there was such an occurance as the forming of  Del Riada
there would have been many Irish haplo types involved.
Perhaps L159.2+ people as well.

If L21 entered the Isles 3000 years ago, it would have spread before many of the Tribes were formed. 

 
« Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 10:30:37 AM by OConnor » Logged

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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2010, 11:29:01 AM »

Where in the N/W of Ireland are we talking when we say N/W Irish Model?
Where in the N/W is this hot spot?  ....
My understanding is that people that fit the Northwest Irish modal are M222+.  Here is the project link.  There is a google map underneath the Y DNA results table.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c7/default.aspx?section=yresults
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OConnor
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« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2010, 12:54:26 PM »

Thanks Mike

There is a fair variety of variations amonst M222.
There are still a couple noticable common markers amonst them.
 
12 24 14 11 11 13 12 12 12 13 14 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15 15 16 17

13 25 14 11 11 13 12 12 12 13 13 29 18 9 10 11 11 24 15 18 30 15 16 16 17

I'll have to take some time to look closer at their average G/D at their 67 level.

I would guess that if some of them are a G/D of 21 at 67 then perhaps M222 is around the same age as L159.2 ?

Of course too little is known about L159.2. 

 
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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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NealtheRed
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« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2010, 01:51:31 PM »

There are a number of folks in the Leinster group that are L159.2-, but have ancestry in Britain. I think the mutation occurred there. Also, a couple of surnames are of French and German in origin. I'd like to get those guys tested for L159.2 as well.

I think that the historical Dumnonii fit in well with the current distribution of L159.2. They are classified as the Fir Domnann in Ireland, one of the major tribes to form the Laigin. In southwest Scotland they were known as Damnonii. In each area, L159.2 is present.

Legend asserts that the Laigin were originally Gaulish as well.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 01:54:22 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

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OConnor
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« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2010, 07:26:51 PM »

Laigin were supposedly from Armorica (N/W France)
Invading both S/E Ireland and S/W England.
There was some association with the Dumnonii in England.
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/ire000.htm

If there are still descendants in Ireland and France now, then were they there through the ages? ....Would they have become Franks at some point ?
Or were they from Brittany?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neustria  

Are the Laigin and Britons the same?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 09:14:56 PM by OConnor » Logged

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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2010, 09:19:38 PM »

Thanks Mike

There is a fair variety of variations amonst M222.
There are still a couple noticable common markers amonst them.
 
12 24 14 11 11 13 12 12 12 13 14 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15 15 16 17

13 25 14 11 11 13 12 12 12 13 13 29 18 9 10 11 11 24 15 18 30 15 16 16 17

I'll have to take some time to look closer at their average G/D at their 67 level.

I would guess that if some of them are a G/D of 21 at 67 then perhaps M222 is around the same age as L159.2 ?

Of course too little is known about L159.2. 
I think the most noteworthy marker for M222+ is 481=25.  That's 3 over WAMH.
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OConnor
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« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2010, 11:33:06 PM »

I guess the Bretons are from S/W England.
So if this is true, is it possible some L21 guys came to France from England?

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

The Bretons are an ethnic group located in the region of Brittany in France. They trace much of their heritage to groups of Brythonic speakers who settled the area from south western Great Britain in two waves from the 4th to 6th centuries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bretons

Bretons were the most prominent of the non-Norman forces in the Norman invasion of England. A number of Breton families were of the highest rank in the new society and were tied to the Normans by marriage.[5] The Scottish Clan Stewart and the Royal House of Stuart have Breton origins.

« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 12:07:38 AM by OConnor » Logged

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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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rms2
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« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2010, 09:02:35 AM »

I guess the Bretons are from S/W England.
So if this is true, is it possible some L21 guys came to France from England?

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

The Bretons are an ethnic group located in the region of Brittany in France. They trace much of their heritage to groups of Brythonic speakers who settled the area from south western Great Britain in two waves from the 4th to 6th centuries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bretons

Bretons were the most prominent of the non-Norman forces in the Norman invasion of England. A number of Breton families were of the highest rank in the new society and were tied to the Normans by marriage.[5] The Scottish Clan Stewart and the Royal House of Stuart have Breton origins.



While no doubt some Bretons descend from 5th century British immigrants, it seems likely to me that far more of them do not.

I think L21 has been present on both sides of the Channel for several thousand years. The L21 in the British Isles probably got there from France or Germany in the first place.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 08:27:15 PM by rms2 » Logged

OConnor
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« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2010, 01:32:18 PM »

It is possible for an snp to have been carried to N/W France from England with the Bretons. (If the Bretons did go to N/W France. as mentioned)

I have no argument that says L21 wasn't  in France already. I suppose the Bretons  went where they were accepted. Perhaps where they already had kinsmen?

In this way could a marker like M222 have been brought to France?

(EDIT): Thinking about it..if the Britons were common people on both sides of the channel, then M222 and other snps could have been brought back and forth during the years through trade and travel before the Saxons appeared on England's shores.

« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 01:39:51 PM by OConnor » Logged

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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2010, 02:30:18 PM »

I don't think there is much difference between Gaulish tribes living in Armorica before the British migration, and the British Celts that migrated there. Both peoples certainly have a high occurence of L21, and the British Celts migrated to England from France anyway.

If L159.2 is present in France or southern Germany, it makes more sense that it originated there. It also supports the theory that Celtic tribes moved from the continent into Britain. Like L21, we can not attribute a SNP's presence on the continent to British migration, or NPEs.
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« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2010, 02:36:05 PM »

The folks in the Leinster group that assert continental origins are these:

Gaston - France (Huguenot) to Northern Ireland
Babie/Baubie - France
Probst - Hoffenheim, Germany (Baden-Wurttemburg)

They are all CCGG, and Gaston is L159.2+.
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« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2010, 04:45:19 PM »

The folks in the Leinster group that assert continental origins are these:

Gaston - France (Huguenot) to Northern Ireland
Babie/Baubie - France
Probst - Hoffenheim, Germany (Baden-Wurttemburg)

They are all CCGG, and Gaston is L159.2+.
Did Babie/Baubie and Probst test for L159.2?   The 464x=2c2g in and of itself is not conclusive, but if these two also fit with the Leinster Ht's AND end up as L159.2+, that's making a pretty good case.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 04:45:54 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2010, 04:51:38 PM »

I believe you's are correct that L21 was on the continent. And that they were in France. I also believe the spread of L21 was boosted by the Franks  who ruled western Europe and half of Italy.

Could Mr Gaston, and Mr Baubie have a Frankish background?
Even Mr Probst could have Frankish background.
Baden-Wurttemburg is close to France and Switzerland.
The Franks also ruled Switzerland.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 04:54:47 PM by OConnor » Logged

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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2010, 04:52:08 PM »

I don't think there is much difference between Gaulish tribes living in Armorica before the British migration, and the British Celts that migrated there. Both peoples certainly have a high occurence of L21, and the British Celts migrated to England from France anyway.  ...

That's a question I wonder about.  Is there a way to tell the difference between a Breton and a Gaul?  or are they too near in relationship to differentiate?

As was mentioned on another post, another question is how does one identify a 11th century "Norman" invader* in the Isles?  Some of them may just be recycled Britons.    Perhaps the full cycle could have been - Gaul to Briton to Breton to Anglo-Norman.  

* I'm using the term "Norman" in reference to the mixed group of invaders, not necessarily a pure "Norse-man", if there is such.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 04:52:33 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2010, 06:34:41 PM »

The folks in the Leinster group that assert continental origins are these:

Gaston - France (Huguenot) to Northern Ireland
Babie/Baubie - France
Probst - Hoffenheim, Germany (Baden-Wurttemburg)

They are all CCGG, and Gaston is L159.2+.
Did Babie/Baubie and Probst test for L159.2?   The 464x=2c2g in and of itself is not conclusive, but if these two also fit with the Leinster Ht's AND end up as L159.2+, that's making a pretty good case.

Both Baubie and Probst fit in perfectly with the Leinster haplotypes, but they have not yet tested for L159.2.

« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 06:44:18 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



NealtheRed
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« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2010, 06:39:17 PM »

I believe you's are correct that L21 was on the continent. And that they were in France. I also believe the spread of L21 was boosted by the Franks  who ruled western Europe and half of Italy.

Could Mr Gaston, and Mr Baubie have a Frankish background?
Even Mr Probst could have Frankish background.
Baden-Wurttemburg is close to France and Switzerland.
The Franks also ruled Switzerland.

It honestly depends on how L159.2 is distributed across Europe. Currently, the majority of the samples in the Leinster project are Irish, with Great Britain being a strong second. We have to start looking at close matches with ancestry in continental Europe.

I know there are matches in the Netherlands, Germany, France and Norway, but we have to actually get them to test for L159.2. That's the hard part.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



NealtheRed
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« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2010, 06:55:57 PM »

I don't think there is much difference between Gaulish tribes living in Armorica before the British migration, and the British Celts that migrated there. Both peoples certainly have a high occurence of L21, and the British Celts migrated to England from France anyway.  ...

That's a question I wonder about.  Is there a way to tell the difference between a Breton and a Gaul?  or are they too near in relationship to differentiate?

As was mentioned on another post, another question is how does one identify a 11th century "Norman" invader* in the Isles?  Some of them may just be recycled Britons.    Perhaps the full cycle could have been - Gaul to Briton to Breton to Anglo-Norman.  

* I'm using the term "Norman" in reference to the mixed group of invaders, not necessarily a pure "Norse-man", if there is such.

I think it is safe to say that most Normans who invaded England and Ireland were not Vikings or descended from them. I'm sure some of those of Gaulish extraction went on to become officers or commanders in the Norman army, and even took on Germanic surnames.

I can say with certainty that William the Conqueror descends from Vikings; that's it.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



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« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2010, 11:11:18 PM »

I believe you's are correct that L21 was on the continent. And that they were in France. I also believe the spread of L21 was boosted by the Franks  who ruled western Europe and half of Italy.

Could Mr Gaston, and Mr Baubie have a Frankish background?
Even Mr Probst could have Frankish background.
Baden-Wurttemburg is close to France and Switzerland.
The Franks also ruled Switzerland.

It honestly depends on how L159.2 is distributed across Europe. Currently, the majority of the samples in the Leinster project are Irish, with Great Britain being a strong second. We have to start looking at close matches with ancestry in continental Europe.

I know there are matches in the Netherlands, Germany, France and Norway, but we have to actually get them to test for L159.2. That's the hard part.
Given the comparatively very high rate of testing of the Irish, the last laugh may be end up being that the "Leinster" cluster isn't of Leinster origin at all, Leinster may just be the Atlantic edge "pooling" point.
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
NealtheRed
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« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2010, 11:08:07 AM »

I believe you's are correct that L21 was on the continent. And that they were in France. I also believe the spread of L21 was boosted by the Franks  who ruled western Europe and half of Italy.

Could Mr Gaston, and Mr Baubie have a Frankish background?
Even Mr Probst could have Frankish background.
Baden-Wurttemburg is close to France and Switzerland.
The Franks also ruled Switzerland.

It honestly depends on how L159.2 is distributed across Europe. Currently, the majority of the samples in the Leinster project are Irish, with Great Britain being a strong second. We have to start looking at close matches with ancestry in continental Europe.

I know there are matches in the Netherlands, Germany, France and Norway, but we have to actually get them to test for L159.2. That's the hard part.
Given the comparatively very high rate of testing of the Irish, the last laugh may be end up being that the "Leinster" cluster isn't of Leinster origin at all, Leinster may just be the Atlantic edge "pooling" point.

That would be the kicker, yes.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



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