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vineviz
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« Reply #100 on: August 31, 2010, 06:17:08 PM »

I more than twelve: you can find many mistakes in my English, but more than twelve!
After many years, I know that you are in you own mind an expert on all matters.  Perhaps we should leave it at that.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 06:17:39 PM by vineviz » Logged
vineviz
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« Reply #101 on: August 31, 2010, 06:20:33 PM »

“Leimone” doesn’t mean anything, but “le moine”, pronounced “le mwan”, is in French “The monk”, and in every language there is the surname “The monk”: in Italian Monaco, Lomonaco (South Italy), etc.
The problem for you is that regardless of your imagination, the surname is Leimone not Lemoine.  I have seen it written in an Italian hand in different years with the same spelling.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #102 on: August 31, 2010, 08:45:45 PM »

By the way, the surname Vallone has an apparent cognate in the French surname Vallon.

Vallone is an Italian surname, like Valle, Valli, Vallini (diffused in my zone). Italian surnames have often a local characterization and make us know their provenance.
I'll study the case of this Sicilian: to Basile I wrote asking, like I have written to Argiedude, to test a close relative to exclude a NPE and didn't have any response.
In Sicily a Norman descent is possible, even though I think that the unique who has a Norman descent in Italy is Vizachero, and permit to me to never take  part again in a conversation with him, because I think at this point he is a provoker.
Let him go ahead with his theories: we shall see how many of those will be right.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 02:30:34 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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MtDNA: K1a1b1e

rms2
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« Reply #103 on: September 08, 2010, 08:13:27 PM »

The second Vallone, kit 118673, Ysearch K7YBY, got his L21+ result today.
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rms2
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« Reply #104 on: December 09, 2011, 08:22:13 PM »

DeFato, kit 196716, joined the R-L21 Plus Project this evening. His mdka came from Genzano, near Potenza, Italy.

He has just 37 markers tested and NO matches at 25 and 37 markers. I couldn't find a Ysearch ID for him.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #105 on: June 18, 2012, 02:32:00 PM »

What do you think of this guy?
E8117 Giovanni Pelloni, 1730 circa Italy  Ysearch GF3G9

You can find him in the Irish and Bretagne projects?

This could be a positive for some of Maliclavelli or just some kind of convergence.

He has no deep clade testing but he would be an interesting candidate for L21. His STR signature matches a subset of the Irish Type II L21+ DF13+ folks.
565<=11 385b>=15 447<=24 391=10. Pelloni actually goes a step or two further on 565 with a value of 9.  He might just be an early branch off the Irish II/South people.

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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #106 on: June 18, 2012, 05:17:26 PM »

What do you think of this guy?
E8117 Giovanni Pelloni, 1730 circa Italy  Ysearch GF3G9
You can find him in the Irish and Bretagne projects?
This could be a positive for some of Maliclavelli or just some kind of convergence.
He has no deep clade testing but he would be an interesting candidate for L21. His STR signature matches a subset of the Irish Type II L21+ DF13+ folks.
565<=11 385b>=15 447<=24 391=10. Pelloni actually goes a step or two further on 565 with a value of 9.  He might just be an early branch off the Irish II/South people.
I don’t think that Pelloni is R-L21. His closest link is P4XCW Marwede Hermannsburg, Germany who is R-P312.

P.S. But of course I have seen only his 37 markers.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 05:18:37 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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« Reply #107 on: June 18, 2012, 06:32:07 PM »

What do you think of this guy?
E8117 Giovanni Pelloni, 1730 circa Italy  Ysearch GF3G9
You can find him in the Irish and Bretagne projects?
This could be a positive for some of Maliclavelli or just some kind of convergence.
He has no deep clade testing but he would be an interesting candidate for L21. His STR signature matches a subset of the Irish Type II L21+ DF13+ folks.
565<=11 385b>=15 447<=24 391=10. Pelloni actually goes a step or two further on 565 with a value of 9.  He might just be an early branch off the Irish II/South people.
I don’t think that Pelloni is R-L21. His closest link is P4XCW Marwede Hermannsburg, Germany who is R-P312.

P.S. But of course I have seen only his 37 markers.

I found Marwede in my P312xL21. Marwede is actually DF19+ so perhaps Pelloni should test for that.  No one has a close GD to him though, all greater (including Marwede) than 16 at 67.  He could be either mostly likely DF19, L21 or U152.   Outside chance of DF27+.  I think odds are very high he is at least P312, though.
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rms2
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« Reply #108 on: August 23, 2013, 03:26:07 PM »

It's been awhile since the last post in this thread, but we have a new Italian R-L21 today: Bigazzi, kit 267719, whose ancestor came from Certignano, south of Florence.

He has no matches in FTDNA's database at either 67 or 37 markers.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #109 on: August 23, 2013, 05:37:39 PM »

It's been awhile since the last post in this thread, but we have a new Italian R-L21 today: Bigazzi, kit 267719, whose ancestor came from Certignano, south of Florence.

He has no matches in FTDNA's database at either 67 or 37 markers.

What to say? This is the haplotype:
267719    Lorenzo Bigazzi, d 1706    Italy    R1b1a2a1a1b4    
13    24    15    11    11-14    12    12    12    13    13    30    15    9-9    11    11    25    15    19    28    15-15-17-17    10    11    19-23    15    14    19    17    36-39    12    12    11    9    15-16    8    10    10    8    10    10    12    23-23    16    10    10    12    16    8    12    22    20    13    12    11    13    11    11    12    12
not particularly interesting, if not for DYS436=10. This is one of the slowest mutating markers and its modal is 12. How many people are tested for R-L21? Many thousands I think. I have counted, beyond 12, 10 (2), 11 (2), 13 (12), 14 (2). It seems that the mutation upstream is easier. Very low downstream (11) and we should think that 10 and 14 are due to a multistep mutation so rare like the downstream one. The only other sample with 10 is this:
                                             199714    John Shaw, 1740 - 1810    Scotland    R1b1a2a1a1b4    
 13    24    14    11    12-15    12    12    11    13    14    29    17    9-10    12    11    25    15    19    31    15-16-16-16    11    11    20-23    17    15    16    18    37-38    12    12    11    9    15-16    8    10    10    8    10    10    12    22-23    16    10    10    12    15    8    11    22    20    12    12    11    13    11    11    12    12
probably not linked. The hamlet of origin (Certignano) is very little (a few houses), in a place with Etruscan and Roman place names, but also with Medieval new towns. The surname? Typical Tuscan, and pretty diffused in Tuscany. Castelfranco di Sopra, the Medieval town nearest to Certignano, is one of the place where the surname is more diffused:

Entrambi tipicamente toscani, Bigazzi, il più diffuso, è soprattutto specifico di Firenze e del fiorentino in particolare di Reggello, Certaldo, Castelfiorentino, Empoli, Rignano sull'Arno e Montaione, di Cecina, Rosignano Marittimo, Livorno nel livornese, di Volterra e Peccioli nel pisano, di Castelfranco di Sopra, Montevarchi, San Giovanni Valdarno e Pian di Sco nell'aretino e di San Gimignano nel senese, Bigozzi ha un ceppo a Foiano della Chiana nell'aretino, uno a Grosseto ed uno a Firenze e Rufina nel fiorentino, ed a Torrita di Siena nel senese, questi cognomi dovrebbero derivare da forme contratte di nomi come Balderigo, Bigotius, ma si deve anche considerare l'ipotesi che possano pure derivare dal termine medioevale Bigoz, Bigaz usato in Provenza per indicare i Brettoni o Normanni, soprannome originato dalla consuetudine di questi di utilizzare, come intercalare, il termine bî got (by God in inglese), che sembrava suonare all'orecchio dei provenzali circa come bigaz o bigoz, troviamo tracce di questa cognominizzazione nel Registro dei Mandati di Pagamento dell'ospedale di S. Giacomo di Roma, dove sotto l'anno 1583 viene indicata una somma pagata all'infermiero Filippo Bigazzi Fiorentino.

                                                            
Probably the Bigazzis belong to different descents. If they were all Bretons or Normans, there would be many (too many) in Tuscany to be believable. Of course many could be of Langobard descent, but we should find some close haplotype there for being sure.
Of course to know the final SNPs could be important. The recent Sardinians DF1/L513 and the case of Rutelli, beyond those we knew, like that of Argiedude (and my old Soncina: but who knows if he is actually R-L21), leaves open the door to my old theory that also R-L21 may have come from Italy or at least to be present in Italy with its oldest form from very ancient times.                                                                                                                                                                          
« Last Edit: August 24, 2013, 12:46:09 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

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