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vineviz
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« on: January 11, 2010, 02:13:27 PM »

Can anyone step forward as being confirmed L165+?

I'm told this may be a significant new SNP under P312, but so far I see no discussion on it.

VV
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2010, 05:38:18 PM »

This is probably not new news but I'll post it for those who weren't aware.  This appears to be great news for the R-P312*, a potential major new subclade.     

Vince T in email:
Quote
I've recently been informed by Vince Vizachero and Thomas Krahn that L165 could be of significant interest to men who are below P312*. This marker was first discovered last fall in a standard deep-clade R test, and I assumed it was just a private marker, but apparently FTDNA now has 4 hits in their database all from unrelated haplotypes. For those who have been craving a new R-P312* SNP (if you are P312+ but negative for everything else down-stream), please feel free to take a crack at L165.
I've just checked my own FTDNA page to find out pricing and ordering details, but L165 hasn't shown up yet. I'll inquire as to when it will.
Further info to follow as we find out more.

If the marketing is done properly, maybe this is the "New L21".
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2010, 06:24:31 PM »

I have been thinking for a month or so now how S116* being such a catch all paragroup with a ubiquitous distribution in western Europe has really hindered our understanding of the story of R1b1b2.

There is a clear tendency towards the SE with upstream H35 etc forms of R1b1b2 (the begining of the R1b1b2 story). L21 is mainly confined to NW Europe (sort of the last leg of R1b1b2's European journey story).  However,  S116 has not provided a useful distributional indication of the part of the R1b1b2 story lying between the upstream ht35 forms and downstream L21, U152 etc.  S116* has disappointed in this regard as it overlaps heavily with S116's offspring clades like L21, U152 etc.  

So, my big hope for a new subclade is that the SNP happened early (rather like L21) and that ultimately the R-L165 and the people who remain S116* have different distributions that might tell us something about S116's point of origin and early journey.  Basically for that to happen S116* has to become a clade rather than a paragroup although I am not clear as to at what point that is ever a certainty.  Real S116* should hopefully have a more ancestral distribution than L165.  

One question though. Is L165 potentially going to massively split current S116* or  will it be a small clade? That obviously will effect how useful it is.  
« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 06:26:44 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2010, 08:15:06 PM »

I don't see L165 offered for sale yet. As soon as it is, I'll put out a bulk email advising the R-P312* guys of the news.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2010, 09:19:46 PM »

This is probably not new news but I'll post it for those who weren't aware.  This appears to be great news for the R-P312*, a potential major new subclade.    

Vince T in email:
Quote
I've recently been informed by Vince Vizachero and Thomas Krahn that L165 could be of significant interest to men who are below P312*. This marker was first discovered last fall in a standard deep-clade R test, and I assumed it was just a private marker, but apparently FTDNA now has 4 hits in their database all from unrelated haplotypes. For those who have been craving a new R-P312* SNP (if you are P312+ but negative for everything else down-stream), please feel free to take a crack at L165.
I've just checked my own FTDNA page to find out pricing and ordering details, but L165 hasn't shown up yet. I'll inquire as to when it will.
Further info to follow as we find out more.

If the marketing is done properly, maybe this is the "New L21".
Well it's certainly news to me. Does anyone know if this SNP was tested in the P312 WTY test?
« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 09:21:31 PM by GoldenHind » Logged
GoldenHind
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« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2010, 09:34:36 PM »

I have been thinking for a month or so now how S116* being such a catch all paragroup with a ubiquitous distribution in western Europe has really hindered our understanding of the story of R1b1b2.

There is a clear tendency towards the SE with upstream H35 etc forms of R1b1b2 (the begining of the R1b1b2 story). L21 is mainly confined to NW Europe (sort of the last leg of R1b1b2's European journey story).  However,  S116 has not provided a useful distributional indication of the part of the R1b1b2 story lying between the upstream ht35 forms and downstream L21, U152 etc.  S116* has disappointed in this regard as it overlaps heavily with S116's offspring clades like L21, U152 etc.  

So, my big hope for a new subclade is that the SNP happened early (rather like L21) and that ultimately the R-L165 and the people who remain S116* have different distributions that might tell us something about S116's point of origin and early journey.  Basically for that to happen S116* has to become a clade rather than a paragroup although I am not clear as to at what point that is ever a certainty.  Real S116* should hopefully have a more ancestral distribution than L165.  

One question though. Is L165 potentially going to massively split current S116* or  will it be a small clade? That obviously will effect how useful it is.  
It is highly unlikely that a genuine S116*/P312* group exists. That would require that the ancestors of these individuals had no new SNPs for several thousand years, which according to the experts, is highly unlikely. As new SNPs are discovered, those who remain S116*/P312* will just become smaller and smaller in number, but it doesn't mean they all in fact have the same history.
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GST
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« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2010, 09:19:48 AM »

[It is highly unlikely that a genuine S116*/P312* group exists. That would require that the ancestors of these individuals had no new SNPs for several thousand years, which according to the experts, is highly unlikely. As new SNPs are discovered, those who remain S116*/P312* will just become smaller and smaller in number, but it doesn't mean they all in fact have the same history.

I was thinking the same thing, but is that still true when you consider population expansions and founder effects? If L21 and U152 (and possibly other large subclades) expanded into new regions and became large compared to P312*, could there be a remant of very diverse P312* with lots of very small subclades, and could the distribution and age of that remnant tell us something about the age and origins of P312?
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2010, 09:36:40 PM »

[It is highly unlikely that a genuine S116*/P312* group exists. That would require that the ancestors of these individuals had no new SNPs for several thousand years, which according to the experts, is highly unlikely. As new SNPs are discovered, those who remain S116*/P312* will just become smaller and smaller in number, but it doesn't mean they all in fact have the same history.

I was thinking the same thing, but is that still true when you consider population expansions and founder effects? If L21 and U152 (and possibly other large subclades) expanded into new regions and became large compared to P312*, could there be a remant of very diverse P312* with lots of very small subclades, and could the distribution and age of that remnant tell us something about the age and origins of P312?

I think there is still room for fairly substantial P312 subclades to be discovered. Some of them may of course be quite small. But I suspect there will be some surprises in store within P312 which will upset some current assumptions about the history of P312.
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rms2
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« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2010, 08:40:16 PM »

I hate to disappoint everyone, but it turns out L165 is just old S68 under a new name.

That was confirmed today by Dr. Jim Wilson of Ethnoancestry. If you haven't tested S68, you may want to give it a shot, but it's probably a small clade.
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vtilroe
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« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2010, 10:16:00 PM »

This is probably not new news but I'll post it for those who weren't aware.  This appears to be great news for the R-P312*, a potential major new subclade.     

Vince T in email:
Quote
I've recently been informed by Vince Vizachero and Thomas Krahn that L165 could be of significant interest to men who are below P312*. This marker was first discovered last fall in a standard deep-clade R test, and I assumed it was just a private marker, but apparently FTDNA now has 4 hits in their database all from unrelated haplotypes. For those who have been craving a new R-P312* SNP (if you are P312+ but negative for everything else down-stream), please feel free to take a crack at L165.
I've just checked my own FTDNA page to find out pricing and ordering details, but L165 hasn't shown up yet. I'll inquire as to when it will.
Further info to follow as we find out more.

If the marketing is done properly, maybe this is the "New L21".
Well it's certainly news to me. Does anyone know if this SNP was tested in the P312 WTY test?
Yes it was, and everyone was negative.
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YSearch & MitoSearch: 2GXWW


yDNA: R-U106*


mtDNA: U5a1a1 (Genbank# GQ368895)


R-P312-WTY Project Admin http://tinyurl.com/daertg

vtilroe
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« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2010, 10:18:22 PM »

I hate to disappoint everyone, but it turns out L165 is just old S68 under a new name.

That was confirmed today by Dr. Jim Wilson of Ethnoancestry. If you haven't tested S68, you may want to give it a shot, but it's probably a small clade.
At least we know what S68 is now, it's been shrouded in mystery since it was first discovered by EA in 2006/2007.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 10:18:49 PM by vtilroe » Logged

YSearch & MitoSearch: 2GXWW


yDNA: R-U106*


mtDNA: U5a1a1 (Genbank# GQ368895)


R-P312-WTY Project Admin http://tinyurl.com/daertg

vineviz
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« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2010, 10:13:08 AM »

At least we know what S68 is now, it's been shrouded in mystery since it was first discovered by EA in 2006/2007.

That's right, and I think the number of L165/S68+ cases was tripled by FTDNA.  And they still don't even technically offer the marker.

The clade will be small for sure, but in some ways that makes it more interesting.

VV
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vtilroe
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« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2010, 12:28:40 AM »

L165 is now offered by FTDNA under the Advanced Orders SNP menu for $29.00 as of today - under the R-P312 category.  From the initial looks of things, it might be included in all new 'Deep Clade R' orders from now on as well.  Presumably once FTDNA updates their R-tree, it may be offered as a deep clade upgrade as well, but then I'm just speculating.

I wonder if Jim Wilson's realization that L165=S68 was the kick in the pants FTDNA needed?  :o)
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YSearch & MitoSearch: 2GXWW


yDNA: R-U106*


mtDNA: U5a1a1 (Genbank# GQ368895)


R-P312-WTY Project Admin http://tinyurl.com/daertg

rms2
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« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2010, 08:49:17 AM »

L165 is now offered by FTDNA under the Advanced Orders SNP menu for $29.00 as of today - under the R-P312 category.  From the initial looks of things, it might be included in all new 'Deep Clade R' orders from now on as well.  Presumably once FTDNA updates their R-tree, it may be offered as a deep clade upgrade as well, but then I'm just speculating.

I wonder if Jim Wilson's realization that L165=S68 was the kick in the pants FTDNA needed?  :o)

I guess I'll send out a bulk email this evening announcing that L165 is available.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 08:49:36 AM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2010, 08:59:56 PM »

I think I'll pass on the bulk email. Plenty of guys are ordering L165 on their own, without a bulk email from me.

Besides, every time I send out one of those, regardless of how I word the heading, I get all sorts of emails from people whom the heading excludes (people who should not order the test in question), and then all sorts of people order whatever it is who should not order it.

Caramba! :-0
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