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Author Topic: Another Edition of R-L21 TMRCAs  (Read 4718 times)
rms2
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« on: January 10, 2010, 02:32:12 PM »

Here they are. Note that the difference in age estimates between the British Isles and the Continent is not at all significant.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2010-01/1263096930

Quote
From: "Tim Janzen" <tjanzen@comcast.net>
Subject: [DNA] R-L21 possible areas of origin
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2010 20:15:30 -0800


Dear All,
It has been some time since I last looked at the R-L21 data in
regards to possible areas of origin based on intraclade TMRCA estimates.
See
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2009-05/12432871
27 and
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2009-07/12486746
33 for background. There are now about twice as many R-L21 haplotypes
available as compared to 8 months ago. I thus decided to analyze the
currently available 67-marker haplotypes from the FTDNA R-21 project at
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L21/default.aspx?section=yresults to
see if the current data supports any particular theory in regards to the
area of origin of R-L21. The current data shows that R-L21 has the highest
variance in England. Below are intraclade TMRCA estimates using various
marker sets for groups of haplotypes from various geographical regions. The
TMRCA estimates for samples from Great Britain and Ireland are slightly
older than the TMRCA estimates for samples from Continental Europe.
Sincerely,
Tim Janzen

52 samples from Continental Europe:
50 markers:3171
10 YHRD markers using YHRD mutation rates: 3052
24 slow markers: 4900

209 samples from the Great Britain and Ireland:
50 markers:3233
10 YHRD markers using YHRD mutation rates: 3296
24 slow markers: 4910

15 samples from Wales:
50 markers:2898
10 YHRD markers using YHRD mutation rates: 2535
24 slow markers: 5189

48 samples from Scotland:
50 markers: 2963
10 YHRD markers using YHRD mutation rates: 3387
24 slow markers: 3614

94 samples from Ireland:
50 markers:3220
10 YHRD markers using YHRD mutation rates: 2934
24 slow markers: 4130

52 samples from England:
50 markers:3350
10 YHRD markers using YHRD mutation rates: 3582
24 slow markers: 6905

15 samples from Germany:
50 markers:3065
10 YHRD markers using YHRD mutation rates: 2615
24 slow markers: 3996

12 samples from France:
50 markers:3285
10 YHRD markers using YHRD mutation rates: 3986
24 slow markers: 3447

16 samples from Scandinavia:
50 markers:2528
10 YHRD markers using YHRD mutation rates: 2490
24 slow markers: 5780

« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 02:32:52 PM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2010, 03:47:18 PM »

Here is my answer:

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2010-01/1263147179

Quote
Thanks, Tim, for your work. The first thing that strikes me about it is that
the difference in age estimates between the British Isles and the Continent
is not all that great, certainly not significantly different and certainly
not great enough to say that L21 originated in the British Isles. Without
looking back at the previous posts, from what I recall, your early estimates
had L21 at its oldest (barely) in Ireland, with a later estimate showing L21
haplotypes as oldest (again, barely) in Scotland. Now with England showing
up with (slightly) the oldest L21 haplotypes, at least I think we are moving
generally in the right direction: south and east, toward the Continent.

I think there are a number of good reasons to doubt that L21 originated in
the British Isles. First off, it is showing up too frequently on the
Continent to enable one reasonably to attribute its presence there to
historical movements from the British Isles, like Britons in the Roman Army,
Britons to Armorica beginning in the 5th century, randy Irish monks and
Scottish merchants, etc. That leaves prehistoric movements from the British
Isles. I know of no real archaeological evidence for large scale movement
from the British Isles to the Continent. On the other hand, the general
archaeological trend is decidedly in the opposite direction, that is, from
the Continent to the British Isles. Certainly the current age estimates for
L21 don't lend themselves to movements out of the British Isles and onto the
European Continent, not where any real evidence is concerned anyway.

The central fact in R1b stats, it seems to me, as a layman, is the
overwhelming presence of persons of British Isles ancestry in genetic
genealogy databases. That is especially true for what we currently believe
are mostly Western clades. As of right now there are 51,672 men with 12 or
more y-dna STR markers in FTDNA's Ancestral Origins database who claim
ancestry in the British Isles. 19,885 of them list England as the country of
origin. Another 8,818 list "United Kingdom"; I suspect most of those are
probably English, too. Ireland accounts for 11,510 men in Ancestral Origins,
Scotland has 9,206. Wales and Northern Ireland have 1,672 and 581
respectively.

France, on the other hand, a country with over 13 times the population of
Ireland, has just 2,793 entries in Ancestral Origins. Yet L21 is turning up
quite frequently in France. Thus far we even have one L21+ man with ancestry
in tiny Luxembourg, a country with just 46 representatives in Ancestral
Origins. There are two thus far with ancestry in the Czech Republic, a
country with but 516 entries in Ancestral Origins. Germany is the
continental nation best represented in Ancestral Origins, with 10,062
entries. But with a population of 82 million, far greater than that of all
of the countries of the British Isles combined, it is still
disproportionately under represented. L21 is popping up pretty frequently in
Germany, especially in the South.

I could go and on about the British Isles imbalance. This imbalance is
reflected in the number of haplotypes you were able to compare for your
intraclade analysis. Since the British Isles are predominantly R1b in their
y-dna profiles, this fact affects R1b more than any other y haplogroup. That
explains why I have heard from so many men of continental descent who, when
they find out they are R1b (mostly R1b1b2 of various kinds, obviously), jump
to the conclusion that something strange happened in their family history,
and that "there's a Brit or an Irishman in the woodpile". That also must, to
a large extent, explain why that recent report on the chainmail-accoutered,
sword-bearing R1b cadavers in the 7th-century tomb in Ergolding in Bavaria
showed that their closest matches in Ysearch were all from the British Isles
(http://www.cmj.hr/2009/50/3/19480023.htm). More sons of randy Irish monks?

It is interesting to me, too, that the "public" SNPs that have emerged
downstream of L21 thus far, M222 and L226, are found mostly (but not quite
exclusively) in Ireland. I am not a geneticist or even close, but as I
understand it, the more derived populations tend to be the younger
populations. That is the principle behind the attempts to trace migration
patterns via SNPs.

The British Isles, and especially England, have been on the receiving end of
a near constant influx of settlers and visitors from the European Continent.
That fact must also be taken into account. No doubt some of those in the
England and other British Isles categories on the Y-DNA Results page of the
R-L21 Plus Project actually have a y-dna ancestor who came from somewhere on
the Continent, although no doubt the reverse is true for some of our
continentals.

Honestly, and this is entirely speculative, I suspect an origin for L21
among the Beaker Folk, who may have been mostly, but not exclusively, P312.
What is up in the air is whether the Beaker Folk originated in Iberia and
migrated to Central Europe and thence to the British Isles or some other
variation on that theme.

Rich
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rms2
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« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2010, 05:42:14 PM »

Here is an excerpt from something interesting by Dr. Anatole Klyosov that has been mentioned by Mike Walsh here before.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2010-01/1263129293

Quote
. . .
In summary, present-day carriers of R-L21 haplotypes have a common ancestor
who lived in the middle of the 2nd millennium BC, 3575+/-370 years ago.

Anatole Klyosov
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 05:42:44 PM by rms2 » Logged

alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2010, 06:22:37 PM »

My thoughts I posted on rootsweb earlier:

The detail of which area is oldest within the isles has changed with each dating attempt.  Is this down to inadequate sampling previously?  At what point will this settle down into a consistent pattern?  Will there come a point when the sample will be good enough everywhere and dating will be consistent thereafter.  I ask because if the isles calculations are still in flux due to the sample increasing then the continental sample has a very long way to go.  
 
At present the virtually identical continental and isles dating (itself something that has only emerged in the last couple of calculations) means there is no clear evidence of direction of spread.  However, if the choice was France vs England for the origin of the SNP then surely the answer can only be France.  The Palaeolithic,Neolithic, Beaker and of course Iron Age cultural spreads all moved in a continent to isles direction and not the other way around.  Pretty well all of the settlement and cultural influences to the isles in all prehistoric periods likely came from France, the Low Countries and the Rhineland (NW Europe to the west of the Rhine) and that pretty well describes the area where L21 is common on the continent.  Of those areas, it is likely that northern French was the most important in terms of people and cultural influence and it is surely no coincidence that this area is apparently L21s continental peak, possibly considerably higher than parts of England.  
 
The origin and spread of L21 cannot be treated as a seperate story from that of S116 and R1b1b2 as a whole given the very similar variance.  One big picture thing seems clear from phylogeny.  R1b1b2 originated in the south-east of Europe and/or SE Asia where the upstream forms are located.  L21 is just the north-westernmost and final leg of its apparently sudden and rapid European journey west and north-west. I think it is very likely that it arrived in the isles from northern France and adjacent areas.  For me the real question is how did R1b1b2 get to France and bordering areas of SW Germany and the Low Countries west of the Rhine.  The start point was in the SE of Europe and the end was in the isles.  France is unique in countries in Europe in that it is liked to both the main routes west: the Mediterranean one and the central European one (and indeed the North Sea one).  The real question then is which of the two routes did R1b1b2
take west? Where did S116 happen?  One route is that from the SE to Italy etc, southern France and from there possibly bi-forking north into France and west around Iberia.  The other would be the Danubian route from the SE to the Rhine and the rivers of France.  
 
The other question is when?  The MRCA dates suggesting a dispersal after 1500BC for L21 is pretty well impossible to correlate with archaeological evidence and thinking which hasn't seen the period after 1500BC as a period of major population change for a long long time.. Perhaps the archaeologists are wrong and major changes sometimes only leave the faintest echoes but the founding of so much of western Europe's population as late as that is incredibly counter-intuitive to the the very slight evidence for exotic arrivals at that time and the massive evidence of local continuity and evolution.  
 
As the nearest international culture in time to this (although not very near - around 2500BC) the beaker people have been cited.  However, if current dating continues to place this culture's origin in Iberia then its impossible to link the implied SW to north and east beaker movement with the clearly SE to west and NW movement that phylogeny demands for R1b1b2, including L21.  So unless the Iberian origin is proved wrong for beakers (or Iberia is shown to have simply been a stepping stone from the east in some way) then the beaker phenomenon cannot be linked to R1b1b2.
 
Of course that throws us back to the early Neolithic.  That is a period where the evidence for major SE to west and NW population movement is pretty well certain.  However, other than the fact that this demands the age of R1b1b2 to be over twice as old as the MRCA calculations, the other problem with this is that there were two routes and cultures that brought the Neolithic into the west from the SE - the southern Cardial and the more northerly Linearbandkeramik.  They were separated by the Alps and Pyrenees from each other although a little Cardia did creep up the Atlantic coast of France.  The problem is that the great division between the two Neolithic migrations from SE to west is not respected by the areas of heavy R1b1b2 prevalence.  There is a lof of R1b1b2 north of the Alps in the area of the Linearbandkeramik and its successor middle Neolithic cultures AND there is a lot of R1b1b2 in former Cardial areas like Italy, southernFrance, Spain and Portugal.  Even Clades like S28 cut heavily across this old division.  SO, if R1b2b did spread with the early Neolithic then it can only have reached part of its present spread at that time and a large chunk of its present distribution must be due to later movements.  If it arrived with the Cardial it would have had to filtered north into non-Cardial areas after the early Neolithic (perhaps through Middle Neolithic influences moving northwards from southern France or a beaker period spread north from Iberia??).  If it arrived with the Linearbandkeramik it would have had to have spread into Italy, southern France and Iberia at a later date after that period. In that scenario people would no doubt think of the Celtic movements of the Iron Age into Italy etc.  

However, if the current extent of R1b1b2 in general and L21 in particular was due to a multi-step dispersal with some areas receiving these y-lines say 7 or 8000 years ago and others in half or a third of that time depth, this should still surely  be detectable in a sharp contrast in diversity or variance??  The similar isles and continental variance does not suggest such a dichotomy in terms of arrival date of R1b1b2 lines although perhaps a bigger and more fined grained sample might help.    
 
There are still those who cling to a pre-Neolithic view and you can still even now see how the distribution of R1b1b2 with concentrations including areas of the Atlantic fringe where the Neolithic arrived late would tempt people to make that link.  However,  the last time the various pre-Neolithic archaeological cultures of the various R1b1b2 areas could possibly have shared a common ancestor was probably the Younger Dryas over 11000 years ago and indeed almost certainly a very long time before that.  Obviously the variance dating would have to be out be an incredible factor of about three for that to even be considered.  
 
So, more questions than answers still I am afraid.  Likely only ancient DNA extraction will settle this.  There does seem to be a lot of positive mumblings about future projects involving the study of Bronze Age and Neolithic bones in Europe.    
 
Alan    


« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 06:25:37 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2010, 08:12:22 PM »

... As the nearest international culture in time to this (although not very near - around 2500BC) the beaker people have been cited.  However, if current dating continues to place this culture's origin in Iberia then its impossible to link the implied SW to north and east beaker movement with the clearly SE to west and NW movement that phylogeny demands for R1b1b2, including L21.  So unless the Iberian origin is proved wrong for beakers (or Iberia is shown to have simply been a stepping stone from the east in some way) then the beaker phenomenon cannot be linked to R1b1b2.
A lady who I'm working with on some genetic genealogy stuff has been following the Rootsweb discussion.  She won't post to a blog but she is very knowledgable.    She emailed her thoughts related to the Beakers and her reading of the article on dating the artifacts.
Quote
(The article on Beaker data) suggests the possibility that the Beaker people moved from east to west along a southerly route into the Iberian peninsula, and then moved north into France via the rivers (Rhine and Danube), and then moved west into Britain from there.
She also feels like one of our R-L21* 11-13 subgroups might be helpful.  They have a strong RAO pattern from Switzerland and to slightly lesser degree, Spain.
Quote
This scenario would entirely fit the RAO pattern described in the second paragraph above, and could explain why there are close DNA matches to Mackenzie which are L-21- in Spain and L-21+ in Switzerland.
 
I don't fulling understand how to use the FTDNA RAO stuff, but I do think an obvious inhibitor here is some conflicts over the Beaker artifacts.  Perhaps Occam's Razor isn't going to yield the final answer here?

Looking at the Beaker package itself, given some Beaker styles and copper may have come from Iberia but some of the package elements (cattle herding, wagons/wheels) etc. seem like an import from PIE peoples to the east..  Did a Beaker culture have to germinate in the upper Danube region somewhere, with inputs from multiple sources, before it's high population expansion period?
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2010, 09:51:03 PM »

Mike

She was referring to my post.  However, the main belief among archaeologists in recent times is that beakers originated in Iberia.  My observation that the third map on the link I posted could leave a chink of light for other (perhaps eastern) origins is just really a personal passing one and this  is not really suggested in the linked article itself.  My comment was really based more on cynicism at the number of times the interpretation of beaker origins has changed over the years rather than any real evidence I know of to counter the Iberian theory.  Right now, I am not aware of any archaeological voices of authority who are specialists in the beaker culture who are contradicting the Iberian beaker origin theory.  It seems to have a complete grip. 

As long as this remains the case then beakers are a complete mismatch for the phylogenic geography of R1b1b2 as far as I can see.  We can wish or even have a vague nagging hunch that the Iberian beaker theory is wrong and that the movement was in the opposite direction but I think until research proves otherwise (which it may never do) then it is probably pointless to try and match R1b1b2 with the beakers.  Under the prevailing theory the mismatch could hadly be greater.  The truth is that DNA and archaeology are not correlating at all well in any simple way.  I have been trying to think this through for a few years but if anything the mismatch i getting worse. I am basically coming to the conclusion that only ancient DNA will solve this. 
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Heber
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« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2010, 04:50:12 PM »

Here is my answer:


Rich,

I am working on a map showing significant migrations from Ireland to the continent, including:

Irish/Scots Monasteries   5th-10th C
Wild Geese                      17th-18th C
Irish Colleges                   18th-19th C

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=100824894482284478873.00047b4e52bb8d4884a07&z=3

They could explain the presence of L21 on the continent.
Many of my L21 matches in Ireland are clustered around monastic settlements.
The monasteries owned up to one third of the land and provided a same haven for agriculture and population expansion. Most of the inhabitants were farmers and in the Celtic Church the monks were not celibate at that time. Significant towns such as Koln, Wurzburg and Salzburg (near Halstatt) were based on Irish monasteries. In fact many of the continental monastic settlements seem to follow the original Rhone, Rhine, Danube path of the Celtic migrations.
The Wild Geese left in the 17thC. Sarsfield alone left from Ireland for the continent with 11,000 men. Some later founded vineyards in the Bordeaux area.
The Irish colleges were based near major cities, Paris, Brussels, Salamanca, Madrid, Lisbon.

Gerard


http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2010-01/1263147179

Quote
Thanks, Tim, for your work. The first thing that strikes me about it is that
the difference in age estimates between the British Isles and the Continent
is not all that great, certainly not significantly different and certainly
not great enough to say that L21 originated in the British Isles. Without
looking back at the previous posts, from what I recall, your early estimates
had L21 at its oldest (barely) in Ireland, with a later estimate showing L21
haplotypes as oldest (again, barely) in Scotland. Now with England showing
up with (slightly) the oldest L21 haplotypes, at least I think we are moving
generally in the right direction: south and east, toward the Continent.

I think there are a number of good reasons to doubt that L21 originated in
the British Isles. First off, it is showing up too frequently on the
Continent to enable one reasonably to attribute its presence there to
historical movements from the British Isles, like Britons in the Roman Army,
Britons to Armorica beginning in the 5th century, randy Irish monks and
Scottish merchants, etc. That leaves prehistoric movements from the British
Isles. I know of no real archaeological evidence for large scale movement
from the British Isles to the Continent. On the other hand, the general
archaeological trend is decidedly in the opposite direction, that is, from
the Continent to the British Isles. Certainly the current age estimates for
L21 don't lend themselves to movements out of the British Isles and onto the
European Continent, not where any real evidence is concerned anyway.

The central fact in R1b stats, it seems to me, as a layman, is the
overwhelming presence of persons of British Isles ancestry in genetic
genealogy databases. That is especially true for what we currently believe
are mostly Western clades. As of right now there are 51,672 men with 12 or
more y-dna STR markers in FTDNA's Ancestral Origins database who claim
ancestry in the British Isles. 19,885 of them list England as the country of
origin. Another 8,818 list "United Kingdom"; I suspect most of those are
probably English, too. Ireland accounts for 11,510 men in Ancestral Origins,
Scotland has 9,206. Wales and Northern Ireland have 1,672 and 581
respectively.

France, on the other hand, a country with over 13 times the population of
Ireland, has just 2,793 entries in Ancestral Origins. Yet L21 is turning up
quite frequently in France. Thus far we even have one L21+ man with ancestry
in tiny Luxembourg, a country with just 46 representatives in Ancestral
Origins. There are two thus far with ancestry in the Czech Republic, a
country with but 516 entries in Ancestral Origins. Germany is the
continental nation best represented in Ancestral Origins, with 10,062
entries. But with a population of 82 million, far greater than that of all
of the countries of the British Isles combined, it is still
disproportionately under represented. L21 is popping up pretty frequently in
Germany, especially in the South.

I could go and on about the British Isles imbalance. This imbalance is
reflected in the number of haplotypes you were able to compare for your
intraclade analysis. Since the British Isles are predominantly R1b in their
y-dna profiles, this fact affects R1b more than any other y haplogroup. That
explains why I have heard from so many men of continental descent who, when
they find out they are R1b (mostly R1b1b2 of various kinds, obviously), jump
to the conclusion that something strange happened in their family history,
and that "there's a Brit or an Irishman in the woodpile". That also must, to
a large extent, explain why that recent report on the chainmail-accoutered,
sword-bearing R1b cadavers in the 7th-century tomb in Ergolding in Bavaria
showed that their closest matches in Ysearch were all from the British Isles
(http://www.cmj.hr/2009/50/3/19480023.htm). More sons of randy Irish monks?

It is interesting to me, too, that the "public" SNPs that have emerged
downstream of L21 thus far, M222 and L226, are found mostly (but not quite
exclusively) in Ireland. I am not a geneticist or even close, but as I
understand it, the more derived populations tend to be the younger
populations. That is the principle behind the attempts to trace migration
patterns via SNPs.

The British Isles, and especially England, have been on the receiving end of
a near constant influx of settlers and visitors from the European Continent.
That fact must also be taken into account. No doubt some of those in the
England and other British Isles categories on the Y-DNA Results page of the
R-L21 Plus Project actually have a y-dna ancestor who came from somewhere on
the Continent, although no doubt the reverse is true for some of our
continentals.

Honestly, and this is entirely speculative, I suspect an origin for L21
among the Beaker Folk, who may have been mostly, but not exclusively, P312.
What is up in the air is whether the Beaker Folk originated in Iberia and
migrated to Central Europe and thence to the British Isles or some other
variation on that theme.

Rich
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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



Jdean
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« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2010, 05:57:58 PM »


Rich,

I am working on a map showing significant migrations from Ireland to the continent, including:

Irish/Scots Monasteries   5th-10th C
Wild Geese                      17th-18th C
Irish Colleges                   18th-19th C

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=100824894482284478873.00047b4e52bb8d4884a07&z=3

They could explain the presence of L21 on the continent.
Many of my L21 matches in Ireland are clustered around monastic settlements.
The monasteries owned up to one third of the land and provided a same haven for agriculture and population expansion. Most of the inhabitants were farmers and in the Celtic Church the monks were not celibate at that time. Significant towns such as Koln, Wurzburg and Salzburg (near Halstatt) were based on Irish monasteries. In fact many of the continental monastic settlements seem to follow the original Rhone, Rhine, Danube path of the Celtic migrations.
The Wild Geese left in the 17thC. Sarsfield alone left from Ireland for the continent with 11,000 men. Some later founded vineyards in the Bordeaux area.
The Irish colleges were based near major cities, Paris, Brussels, Salamanca, Madrid, Lisbon.

Gerard


This presumably explains the high presence of M222 in France.
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rms2
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« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2010, 08:25:16 PM »

Heber -

Sorry but none of that makes any sense.

France has too high a level of L21 to account for it as you are trying to do, and perhaps we should be talking about all the French who have gone to Ireland over the years, as well.

I know you are new to this forum, but we went through all that "out of Ireland" silliness a long time ago.

I'd hate to go back through all that again (and again . . . and again).
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2010, 10:15:00 PM »


Rich,

I am working on a map showing significant migrations from Ireland to the continent, including:

Irish/Scots Monasteries   5th-10th C
Wild Geese                      17th-18th C
Irish Colleges                   18th-19th C

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=100824894482284478873.00047b4e52bb8d4884a07&z=3

They could explain the presence of L21 on the continent.
Many of my L21 matches in Ireland are clustered around monastic settlements.
The monasteries owned up to one third of the land and provided a same haven for agriculture and population expansion. Most of the inhabitants were farmers and in the Celtic Church the monks were not celibate at that time. Significant towns such as Koln, Wurzburg and Salzburg (near Halstatt) were based on Irish monasteries. In fact many of the continental monastic settlements seem to follow the original Rhone, Rhine, Danube path of the Celtic migrations.
The Wild Geese left in the 17thC. Sarsfield alone left from Ireland for the continent with 11,000 men. Some later founded vineyards in the Bordeaux area.
The Irish colleges were based near major cities, Paris, Brussels, Salamanca, Madrid, Lisbon.

Gerard


This presumably explains the high presence of M222 in France.
I put forth two possible explanations for your consideration:

1) Places such as Aberdeen and Dundee, which were organized to expedite the shipping and distribution of L21 to Norway and France, utilized genetic screening to keep M222 from shipping out.

2) The wanderlust gene so prevalent amongst medieval L21 Irish monks somehow didn't get passed on to M222.

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« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2010, 10:48:28 PM »

with 1 in 2 French R1b1b2 coming in L21+ during a recent batch of testing these monks must have had some primative form of !
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« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2010, 01:09:05 AM »

...

This presumably explains the high presence of M222 in France.
I put forth two possible explanations for your consideration:

1) Places such as Aberdeen and Dundee, which were organized to expedite the shipping and distribution of L21 to Norway and France, utilized genetic screening to keep M222 from shipping out.

2) The wanderlust gene so prevalent amongst medieval L21 Irish monks somehow didn't get passed on to M222.



I wonder if one will find similar frequencies of L226 in France as well?  If so, the Depts. of Emigration at Aberdeen and Dundee must have had access to whole-genome scanning.  A darned shame if that technology had been lost all these years...
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« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2010, 07:07:21 AM »

...

This presumably explains the high presence of M222 in France.
I put forth two possible explanations for your consideration:

1) Places such as Aberdeen and Dundee, which were organized to expedite the shipping and distribution of L21 to Norway and France, utilized genetic screening to keep M222 from shipping out.

2) The wanderlust gene so prevalent amongst medieval L21 Irish monks somehow didn't get passed on to M222.



I wonder if one will find similar frequencies of L226 in France as well?  If so, the Depts. of Emigration at Aberdeen and Dundee must have had access to whole-genome scanning.  A darned shame if that technology had been lost all these years...

You certainly get the impression Irish type III people got turned away by border controls as well, however NealtheRed seems to think they may not have been quite so adept at spotting L159.2 which would be interesting if it turned out to be true.
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« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2010, 04:37:16 PM »




This presumably explains the high presence of M222 in France.

L21 R-M222 dates from 5th C (O'Niall).
Monastic expansion in Europe dates from 6th=10th C.
L21 R-L226 dates from 10th C (O'Brian)
The Norman (French Viking) invasion of Ireland 12thC
Flight of the Earls to Europe (O'Neills and other R-M222) 17th C
Flight of the Wild Geese to Europe (17th-18thC) R-M222 and R-L226 (L21)
Eight Irish Regiments in the French Army (Over 150,000 men)
Other regiments in Italy, Spain, Germany, Austria, Benelux, Scandanavia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_of_the_Wild_Geese
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Brigade_(French)
http://www.irishineurope.com/database.html

No one knows the origin or L21.
However we should keep our minds open.
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« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2010, 07:28:48 PM »




This presumably explains the high presence of M222 in France.

L21 R-M222 dates from 5th C (O'Niall).
Monastic expansion in Europe dates from 6th=10th C.
L21 R-L226 dates from 10th C (O'Brian)
The Norman (French Viking) invasion of Ireland 12thC
Flight of the Earls to Europe (O'Neills and other R-M222) 17th C
Flight of the Wild Geese to Europe (17th-18thC) R-M222 and R-L226 (L21)
Eight Irish Regiments in the French Army (Over 150,000 men)
Other regiments in Italy, Spain, Germany, Austria, Benelux, Scandanavia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_of_the_Wild_Geese
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Brigade_(French)
http://www.irishineurope.com/database.html

No one knows the origin or L21.
However we should keep our minds open.

Keeping an open mind is one thing, trying to prove a handful of Irish monks are responsible for a sizable proportion of the current French population is another.

My most distant 'reasonably assumed' ancestor was an Archdeacon in Armagh in the early 15th C., we're English, maybe he and his friends were responsible for L21 in Ireland

How many Irish haplotypes have you spotted in France?



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« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2010, 09:01:02 PM »

Our French and Germans don't have any significant Irish matches, and thus far no L226 has been found in France or Germany.

The movements identified by Heber were not enough to account for the amount of L21 we are seeing in continental Europe.

Ireland is an island. Founder effect and drift are stronger in such relatively small, relatively isolated environments.

Add to that the fact that Ireland is massively over represented in genetic genealogy databases relative to continental Europe and you have the reason Ireland seems to loom large in the L21 story.

Another thing Heber apparently missed: although the difference is not all that great, the few French haplotypes have greater variance than the mass of Irish haplotypes. Translation: French L21 is older than Irish L21.

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« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2010, 09:25:31 AM »

Our French and Germans don't have any significant Irish matches, and thus far no L226 has been found in France or Germany.

The movements identified by Heber were not enough to account for the amount of L21 we are seeing in continental Europe.

Ireland is an island. Founder effect and drift are stronger in such relatively small, relatively isolated environments.

Add to that the fact that Ireland is massively over represented in genetic genealogy databases relative to continental Europe and you have the reason Ireland seems to loom large in the L21 story.

Another thing Heber apparently missed: although the difference is not all that great, the few French haplotypes have greater variance than the mass of Irish haplotypes. Translation: French L21 is older than Irish L21.




I would be delighted if L21 was found to originate in France. It would give me yet another excuse to visit "La Belle France", as if I needed one. I would start my research mission visiting the 20 or more Grand Cru Irish vineyards in Bordeaux.
However I am trying to get to grips with the facts. Perhaps board members could fill in the gaps.

M269 arrived in Ireland 5,000 bce.
P312 arrived in Ireland ?? (from where).
L21    TMRCA 3,500 bce.   (from where)
M222 TMRCA 1,600 bce. NW Ireland, O'Neill.
L226  TMRCA 1,100 bce. SW Ireland, O'Brian.
L159  TMRCA ???            East Ireland, O'Byrne.
L193  TMRCA 1,500 bce. NW Ireland, Scotland.
Am I missing something?
I dont know of any French L21 sub clades. Please update me.
My point about the monasteries is that they were in existance from 500 - 1500.
There was frequent traffic between Ireland and the Irish/Scots monasteries during that period.
The main commercial activity of the monasteries was organised agriculture and that was done by the lay tenents.
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« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2010, 09:47:48 AM »

Our French and Germans don't have any significant Irish matches, and thus far no L226 has been found in France or Germany.

The movements identified by Heber were not enough to account for the amount of L21 we are seeing in continental Europe.

Ireland is an island. Founder effect and drift are stronger in such relatively small, relatively isolated environments.

Add to that the fact that Ireland is massively over represented in genetic genealogy databases relative to continental Europe and you have the reason Ireland seems to loom large in the L21 story.

Another thing Heber apparently missed: although the difference is not all that great, the few French haplotypes have greater variance than the mass of Irish haplotypes. Translation: French L21 is older than Irish L21.




I would be delighted if L21 was found to originate in France. It would give me yet another excuse to visit "La Belle France", as if I needed one. I would start my research mission visiting the 20 or more Grand Cru Irish vineyards in Bordeaux.
However I am trying to get to grips with the facts. Perhaps board members could fill in the gaps.

M269 arrived in Ireland 5,000 bce.
P312 arrived in Ireland ?? (from where).
L21    TMRCA 3,500 bce.   (from where)
M222 TMRCA 1,600 bce. NW Ireland, O'Neill.
L226  TMRCA 1,100 bce. SW Ireland, O'Brian.
L159  TMRCA ???            East Ireland, O'Byrne.
L193  TMRCA 1,500 bce. NW Ireland, Scotland.
Am I missing something?
I dont know of any French L21 sub clades. Please update me.
My point about the monasteries is that they were in existance from 500 - 1500.
There was frequent fraffic between Ireland and the Irish/Scots monasteries during that period.
The main activity of the monasteries was organised agriculture and that was done by the lay tenants.

It seems unreasonable that monastaries during historic periods could be responsible for a large proportion of the modern population of France and possibly parts of Germany.  There were very large populations present during this time frame.  What are you saying is the advantage of the Irish/Scots that let them outgrow the current inhabitants?  I can't think of anything that would apply as a huge advantage.  What do you say?

As far as the dates, be careful, they are ranges not specific dates.  As far the surnames, be careful about connecting them to ancient dynasties.  An NPE or two could alter current thinking or claims on those kinds of things.



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« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2010, 11:49:04 AM »

Our French and Germans don't have any significant Irish matches, and thus far no L226 has been found in France or Germany.

The movements identified by Heber were not enough to account for the amount of L21 we are seeing in continental Europe.

Ireland is an island. Founder effect and drift are stronger in such relatively small, relatively isolated environments.

Add to that the fact that Ireland is massively over represented in genetic genealogy databases relative to continental Europe and you have the reason Ireland seems to loom large in the L21 story.

Another thing Heber apparently missed: although the difference is not all that great, the few French haplotypes have greater variance than the mass of Irish haplotypes. Translation: French L21 is older than Irish L21.




I would be delighted if L21 was found to originate in France. It would give me yet another excuse to visit "La Belle France", as if I needed one. I would start my research mission visiting the 20 or more Grand Cru Irish vineyards in Bordeaux.
However I am trying to get to grips with the facts. Perhaps board members could fill in the gaps.

M269 arrived in Ireland 5,000 bce.
P312 arrived in Ireland ?? (from where).
L21    TMRCA 3,500 bce.   (from where)
M222 TMRCA 1,600 bce. NW Ireland, O'Neill.
L226  TMRCA 1,100 bce. SW Ireland, O'Brian.
L159  TMRCA ???            East Ireland, O'Byrne.
L193  TMRCA 1,500 bce. NW Ireland, Scotland.
Am I missing something?
I dont know of any French L21 sub clades. Please update me.
My point about the monasteries is that they were in existance from 500 - 1500.
There was frequent fraffic between Ireland and the Irish/Scots monasteries during that period.
The main activity of the monasteries was organised agriculture and that was done by the lay tenants.

It seems unreasonable that monastaries during historic periods could be responsible for a large proportion of the modern population of France and possibly parts of Germany.  There were very large populations present during this time frame.  What are you saying is the advantage of the Irish/Scots that let them outgrow the current inhabitants?  I can't think of anything that would apply as a huge advantage.  What do you say?

As far as the dates, be careful, they are ranges not specific dates.  As far the surnames, be careful about connecting them to ancient dynasties.  An NPE or two could alter current thinking or claims on those kinds of things.





http://wapedia.mobi/en/Hiberno-Scottish_mission

I do not know the percentage of L21 in France or Germany.

Has any serious academic studies been published on this subject?
I noted the handful which appear in the L21 spreadsheet.
How were these selected?
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« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2010, 05:22:33 PM »

Our French and Germans don't have any significant Irish matches, and thus far no L226 has been found in France or Germany.

The movements identified by Heber were not enough to account for the amount of L21 we are seeing in continental Europe.

Ireland is an island. Founder effect and drift are stronger in such relatively small, relatively isolated environments.

Add to that the fact that Ireland is massively over represented in genetic genealogy databases relative to continental Europe and you have the reason Ireland seems to loom large in the L21 story.

Another thing Heber apparently missed: although the difference is not all that great, the few French haplotypes have greater variance than the mass of Irish haplotypes. Translation: French L21 is older than Irish L21.




I would be delighted if L21 was found to originate in France. It would give me yet another excuse to visit "La Belle France", as if I needed one. I would start my research mission visiting the 20 or more Grand Cru Irish vineyards in Bordeaux.
However I am trying to get to grips with the facts. Perhaps board members could fill in the gaps.

M269 arrived in Ireland 5,000 bce.
P312 arrived in Ireland ?? (from where).
L21    TMRCA 3,500 bce.   (from where)
M222 TMRCA 1,600 bce. NW Ireland, O'Neill.
L226  TMRCA 1,100 bce. SW Ireland, O'Brian.
L159  TMRCA ???            East Ireland, O'Byrne.
L193  TMRCA 1,500 bce. NW Ireland, Scotland.
Am I missing something?
I dont know of any French L21 sub clades. Please update me.
My point about the monasteries is that they were in existance from 500 - 1500.
There was frequent fraffic between Ireland and the Irish/Scots monasteries during that period.
The main activity of the monasteries was organised agriculture and that was done by the lay tenants.

It seems unreasonable that monastaries during historic periods could be responsible for a large proportion of the modern population of France and possibly parts of Germany.  There were very large populations present during this time frame.  What are you saying is the advantage of the Irish/Scots that let them outgrow the current inhabitants?  I can't think of anything that would apply as a huge advantage.  What do you say?

As far as the dates, be careful, they are ranges not specific dates.  As far the surnames, be careful about connecting them to ancient dynasties.  An NPE or two could alter current thinking or claims on those kinds of things.





Mike,

To answer your specific question on the advantage of being close to a Celtic monastery.
In some countries the monasteries owned up to one third of the land, in the best locations, with the most beautiful vistas. Look at any of the locations on my map on Google Earth.
Some of them had over 5,000 students. With hundreds of monasteries, over 1,000 years, that number soon adds up.
This was  the Knowledge Economy of the time. They were among the few  people who knew how to read and write in the dark ages.
They brought advanced agricultural technology and processes with them. Sustainable agriculture.
They were usually immune from attack from warring tribes (except Vikings). This is good for genes.
They converted pagan Europe to Christianity, therefore having huge influence in the politics of their era.
I have never said that they outgrew the existing inhabitants. I just think it could explain the presence of L21 on the continent. I would be happy to learn more facts on the presence of l21 on the continent.

Gerard
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« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2010, 08:58:31 PM »


http://wapedia.mobi/en/Hiberno-Scottish_mission

I do not know the percentage of L21 in France or Germany.

Has any serious academic studies been published on this subject?
I noted the handful which appear in the L21 spreadsheet.
How were these selected?

I don't have exact figures but a number of reasonably random European descended R1b1b2 men (French mostly) have been tested for R-L21. the outcome of this is about 50% of R1b1b2 predicted French men are R-L21+ in the north with the frequency dropping as you move south (this is only rough but I think that’s not to far off)

So if we say for the sake of argument that 30% of R1b1b2 predicted French males are L21+ (which could be an underestimate), and assume about 45% of France is R1b1b2 (which I think is about right) that would mean of the 32 million (ish) Frenchmen living in France at the moment over 4 million of them are probably R-L21, which is quite a lot compared to the total male population of Ireland (North & South) which is about 3 million.

Hopefully somebody will correct me if this is too far out, but it’s only intended to give you an idea of the scale of L21 in France
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« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2010, 09:20:29 PM »

Monks were celibate. It's not likely large numbers of them left Ireland en masse to impregnate whole swathes of continental females.

Where is there evidence of a mass movement of British and Irish to the European Continent? The nearest thing to such an event was the British exodus to Armorica (Brittany) beginning in the 5th century AD. I don't think anyone is claiming that extended beyond Brittany and swamped all of France and SW Germany, as well.

The population trend has always been in the other direction, that is, from the Continent to the British Isles.

Heber mentioned the lack of L21 subclades on the Continent. Exactly! A basic principle of genetics is that the more derived populations are generally younger. That is what allows us to track population movements via the trail of SNPs.

Heber, I think you are allowing yourself to be confused by the massive way in which the British Isles are over represented in genetic genealogy databases.
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« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2010, 09:31:37 PM »

Our French and Germans don't have any significant Irish matches, and thus far no L226 has been found in France or Germany.

The movements identified by Heber were not enough to account for the amount of L21 we are seeing in continental Europe.

Ireland is an island. Founder effect and drift are stronger in such relatively small, relatively isolated environments.

Add to that the fact that Ireland is massively over represented in genetic genealogy databases relative to continental Europe and you have the reason Ireland seems to loom large in the L21 story.

Another thing Heber apparently missed: although the difference is not all that great, the few French haplotypes have greater variance than the mass of Irish haplotypes. Translation: French L21 is older than Irish L21.




I would be delighted if L21 was found to originate in France. It would give me yet another excuse to visit "La Belle France", as if I needed one. I would start my research mission visiting the 20 or more Grand Cru Irish vineyards in Bordeaux.
However I am trying to get to grips with the facts. Perhaps board members could fill in the gaps.

M269 arrived in Ireland 5,000 bce.
P312 arrived in Ireland ?? (from where).
L21    TMRCA 3,500 bce.   (from where)
M222 TMRCA 1,600 bce. NW Ireland, O'Neill.
L226  TMRCA 1,100 bce. SW Ireland, O'Brian.
L159  TMRCA ???            East Ireland, O'Byrne.
L193  TMRCA 1,500 bce. NW Ireland, Scotland.
Am I missing something?
I dont know of any French L21 sub clades. Please update me.
My point about the monasteries is that they were in existance from 500 - 1500.
There was frequent traffic between Ireland and the Irish/Scots monasteries during that period.
The main commercial activity of the monasteries was organised agriculture and that was done by the lay tenents.


There are a number of problems with your timeline.
There is no evidence M269 arrived in Ireland around 5000 BC. If it did , we should probably see a lot of of M269(xP312,U106) and probably some ht35 as well. In fact there appears to be very little in the British Isles.
L21 probably didn't arrive in the British Isles until around the time of the Bronze age, because that is about when it first came into existence. The manner in which it is distributed across the continent suggests, at least to me and many others, that it arose in west/central Europe at some location north of the Alps , and then spread mostly but not entirely in a northwestly direction.
What evidence suggests L21 originated in the British Isles? Absolutely nothing that I can see.
Other L21 subclades, such as M222,  which appear not be found in any significant numbers of the continent, may well have had an origin In Ireland or somewhere in the British Isles.
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« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2010, 09:42:41 PM »

Rich:

Point him toward DNAForums. I'm sure some over there are still arguing this point.

"I know you are new to this forum, but we went through all that "out of Ireland" silliness a long time ago.

I'd hate to go back through all that again (and again . . . and again)."
 
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« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2010, 09:49:20 PM »

Rich:

Point him toward DNAForums. I'm sure some over there are still arguing this point.

"I know you are new to this forum, but we went through all that "out of Ireland" silliness a long time ago.

I'd hate to go back through all that again (and again . . . and again)."
 

I never send anyone to that place. He would probably just be corrupted there beyond hope of recovery.

I wonder just how many continental L21+ results we need from that under tested region before people will finally give up the effort to make L21 into THE Irish SNP.

I have no problem with the Irish. I'm part Irish myself. It would be fine by me if L21 was Irish in origin. But it's just not.
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