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Author Topic: Cruciani 2010 paper on R1b in Africa  (Read 6436 times)
Jean M
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« on: January 07, 2010, 06:30:38 PM »

Fulvio Cruciani et al, Human Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88: a paternal genetic record of early mid Holocene trans-Saharan connections and the spread of Chadic languages, European Journal of Human Genetics (2010), 1–8.

Abstract:

Quote
Although human Y chromosomes belonging to haplogroup R1b are quite rare in Africa, being found mainly in Asia and Europe, a group of chromosomes within the paragroup R-P25* are found concentrated in the central-western part of the African continent, where they can be detected at frequencies as high as 95%. Phylogenetic evidence and coalescence time estimates suggest that R-P25* chromosomes (or their phylogenetic ancestor) may have been carried to Africa by an Asia-to-Africa back migration in prehistoric times. Here, we describe six new mutations that define the relationships among the African R-P25* Y chromosomes and between these African chromosomes and earlier reported R-P25 Eurasian sub-lineages. The incorporation of these new mutations into a phylogeny of the R1b haplogroup led to the identification of a new clade (R1b1a or R-V88) encompassing all the African R-P25* and about half of the few European/west Asian R-P25* chromosomes. A worldwide phylogeographic analysis of the R1b haplogroup provided strong support to the Asia-to-Africa back-migration hypothesis. The analysis of the distribution of the R-V88 haplogroup in >1800 males from 69 African populations revealed a striking genetic contiguity between the Chadic-speaking peoples from the central Sahel and several other Afroasiatic-speaking groups from North Africa. The R-V88 coalescence time was estimated at 9200–5600 kya, in the early mid Holocene. We suggest that R-V88 is a paternal genetic record of the proposed mid-Holocene migration of proto-Chadic Afroasiatic speakers through the Central Sahara into the Lake Chad Basin, and geomorphological evidence is consistent with this view.

It's in the Mini-Library.

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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2010, 01:14:36 AM »

What will you say when it will be demonstrated that R1b was present in Italy before the Younger Dryas and from it derived all the subclades?
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Maliclavelli


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rms2
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« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2010, 12:26:53 PM »

What will you say when it will be demonstrated that R1b was present in Italy before the Younger Dryas and from it derived all the subclades?

I don't believe it.

Are you saying all R1b through R1b1b2 and subclades in Europe, instead of coming straight from Asia (which is separated from Europe by - what? - a level, grassy plain), is the product of, first, a back migration of Asian R1b to Africa?

A lot is made of these Chadic-speaking R1b1* folks, I suppose because they are kind of a curiosity, but how many of them are there? We're talking some pretty small groups.

They are kind of an anomaly, unless I am mistaken, perhaps an offshoot of the Hyksos tribes who once ruled Egypt.
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Jean M
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« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2010, 01:47:05 PM »

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They are kind of an anomaly, unless I am mistaken, perhaps an offshoot of the Hyksos tribes who once ruled Egypt.

It looks as though they arrived much earlier than that. See my blog post: R1b in Africa. 

They have nothing to do with R1b in Europe. The finding of the new SNP V88 sorts that out.   
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2010, 02:42:03 PM »

Please, read carefully the paper of Cruciani. This is a mail I sent to a few friends and after to Vizachero on “Dienekes blog”. And note how Vizachero is changing his calculation of the TMRCA: “Dal giorno alla notte (From day to night)” we say in Italy.

“It is very important what you are saying. Then I send to you all a message of a few minutes ago for my few friends:

"Sam, this paper demonstrates that: only in Italy has been found 3 R1b1*, the ancestors of all subclades (your R1b1 will become either R1b1a* (V88) or R1b1a3* (V35) or R1b1a3a (V7)). It will be unlikly you'll be R1b1a2 (V8) or R1b1a4 (V69), found only among Africans, except you derive from some North African converted to Judaism. Italy has 1 R-V35 and 1 R-V7, then it has probably some R-V88. Italy has (in Corsica, who are Italians, and in Sardinia) R1b1a1 (M18). Italy has R-M73, even though they are more diffused in Asia, but they could be emigrated there from Europe with Tocharians. Italy has R/L23-, R/L23+/L150- (the only one in the world so far), R/L23+/L150+ (me, for instance) and all subclades, except the most recent ones, like R-153, R-M167, and a very few (one: Argiedude) R-L21. Do you need other proofs?".

I can add for you that, this said, probably these R1b1-V88 and subclades found in Africa  have come from Italy, then from North via sea. If you watch carefully the Cruciani’s maps, there are two centers of diffusion: one from Siwa and one from North Cameroon where this people retired after Sahara dried. Then not an expansion from East, but from North, and North of the Libya there is Italy.

« Last Edit: January 09, 2010, 10:47:35 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2010, 05:06:56 PM »

There is nothing I can see to commend that notion, Gioiello. Honestly, and I mean no offense, it sounds like special pleading or a grasping at straws to derive all of R1b in Europe from Italy.

What real evidence is there that V88 went to Africa from Italy? I haven't read the new Cruciani paper yet, but the abstract suggests a "back migration" from Asia.

Sam mentioned another paper some while back concerning an R-P25 population near the Dead Sea. It would be interesting to know whether it has any V88 in it or not.

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« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2010, 05:09:22 PM »

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They are kind of an anomaly, unless I am mistaken, perhaps an offshoot of the Hyksos tribes who once ruled Egypt.

It looks as though they arrived much earlier than that. See my blog post: R1b in Africa.  

They have nothing to do with R1b in Europe. The finding of the new SNP V88 sorts that out.  

I'll have to read that paper.

It has nothing to do with you, Jean, but it pains me to login at dna-forums. I'm better off not going there.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2010, 05:11:25 PM by rms2 » Logged

Jean M
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« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2010, 06:40:09 PM »

OK - summary of my blog post:

R1b1a (V88) reaches its highest percentages in central Sahel (northern Cameroon, northern Nigeria, Chad, and Niger). It is strongly correlated with the Chadic languages, a branch of the large Afro-Asiatic family. It had already been proposed by others that R1b and E1b1b1b (E-M81) brought Afro-Asiatic languages and farming to Africa from the Near East.

The distribution map of V88 suggests a spread route from North Africa across the Sahara. Previously that was seen as unlikely. Who would want to cross a huge desert if they could follow the Nile Valley? Cruciani and his colleagues suggest that R1b1a (V88) entered Africa between 8,000 and 3,500 BC when the Sahara was a green and fertile region, dotted with huge lakes.

The linguist Militarev has created a language tree for Afro-Asiatic which fits that picture. He groups together Ancient Egyptian and Chado-Berber in one branch, which had common agricultural words, including those for sheep and goats, which were not native to Africa. They arrived with farmers from the Near East around 6,000 BC. The Berber and Chadic language families spring from the same root. That is what we would expect if they both descended from a migration of farmers across Sinai into North Africa around 6,000 BC. Miltarev dates Proto-Chadic around 5,410 BC.

« Last Edit: January 09, 2010, 06:41:26 PM by Jean M » Logged
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2010, 11:23:09 PM »

Rich, you know my vicissitudes, but watch how the same Vizachero is changing his calculation of the TMRCA! Now R1b1 is 15-16,000 years old, then all the battle he fought is lost for him. You (and Jean Manco) ask whether R1b1 came from East of Sahara and not from Italy. But I have demonstrated in my previous posting that Italy has all the range of R1b1 and Middle East not. The paper of Cruciani has found 3 R1b1/V88- in Italy, 1 in Western Asia (probably Asia Minor and not Middle East) and 1 in Eastern Asia. It is true that the Italians tested were more than 1000, but the percentage among them of hg. R was 26%. Where have they chosen those Italians, when in Center-North the percentage is 60% and overall at least 40? Then also Italian are underestimated for hg. R.
Of course the Hyksos hypothesis has no value. R-V88+ and the African subclades (V8 and V69) arrived more than 10,000 years ago, when the European (Italian) subclades weren’t yet formed, in fact Africa hasn’t them. The fact that R-V88 isn’t African has demonstrated Cruciani in his paper. But you ask: why not from Middle East? I said to Jean that the maps of Cruciani demonstrate a diffusion from North, from Mediterranean Sea and not from East, and only Italy has all the subclades of R which demonstrate that the haplogroup comes from there.
I invite geneticists to deepen the diffusion of mtDNA U6, thought till today North African, but which has an European diffusion (strongly in Italy, specially South Italy) and the prejudice that what is in Italy came from Africa and not vice versa is hard to die.  Certainly Italian is U5b3, as a paper demonstrated. Probably is K, born from U8b, tipically European (and all mtDNA U) as the last discover of Kostenki has demonstrated. I think also N1b etc.
For all these reasons and for other, that I have expressed in these years on the forums before they banned me, I think that my hypothesis of an Italian Refugium, at least during the Younger Dryas (but if R1b1/V88- is found in Italy and not elsewhere in Europe probably before) is today stronger than ever.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2010, 11:26:21 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2010, 10:21:11 AM »

Gioiello -

Italy was the birthplace and hub of the Roman Empire. Finding a couple of guys who are V88+ there is no big surprise then, seeing that folks from all over the far-flung Roman Empire ended up in Italy as slaves, merchants, soldiers, pilgrims, etc.

As I understand it - and I have still to read Cruciani's paper - , we are all V88-, so we are not in the same branch or line as the V88+ guys, who diverged from our ancestral line just downstream of P25. European R1b, on the other hand, came by way of the P297 route.

It's kind of like this. Here is Grandfather William P25 in western Asia. One of his sons, the adventurous Charlie P25, decides to head to Africa. Somewhere along the way, he has a son he names Arthur V88. Arthur has sons who have more sons who live mainly in Africa and speak what becomes Chadic.

Meanwhile, back in western Asia, after some centuries or millennia of milling around in that vast landscape, some of Grandpa William's descendants, by now known as the M269 family, head into Europe and settle there, founding various families, with names like P310, P312, U106, etc.

They are related through old gggggg . . . Grandfather William P25 to the now mostly gloriously well-tanned V88 men, but that's as close at it gets.

Of course, my story above is supposed to be kind of an illustrative parable and not science, but I think you get what I mean.


« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 10:25:41 AM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2010, 11:10:20 AM »

I appreciate your folktale, and of course your hypothesis is possible, like every other one. But we need  proofs, science is made by proofs. If the path of our ancestors is yours, where are the traces? When I think to Italy (or to Spain and a migration of R1b1* to North Africa through “Gebel Tarik” or better the “Pillars of Hercules”) is why here there are the traces, all the traces that elsewhere lack. 1) from the Cruciani’s maps R1b1/V88 and subclades in Africa have a diffusion from North and not from East. No trace in the map of a presence in eastern Egypt nor in Middle East and less in Arabia. 2) No trace of the ancestor of R1b1/V88+, i.e. R1b1/V88- (3 over 5 found in Italy): if they were slaves or migrants they came all in Italy? The other two found are 1 in Western Asia (I think Asia Minor and not Middle East) and the other in Eastern Asia (probably Korea or North China). It seems likely that R1b1/V88- had already reached Western Europe (and we can legitimately hypothesize that the same haplogroup in the same time has reached Africa via Middle East: anyway no link more with us Europeans). Now Vizachero says that its age is about 15/16,000 YBP. And where has gone all these years of fight against me? They where scientists, mathematicians, quasi-Nobel: Nordtvedt, Klyosov, Vizachero etc. etc. Now they are constraint to admit that it is possible that R1b1* had reached western Europe before the Younger Dryas. For me it is already enough, for now. 3) R1b1b2/L23-, present massively in Italians and Jews, hasn’t been found in today Middle East. Does this mean anything? 4) The link between R/L23+ (L150) has been found only in Italy (Romitti and his son).Vizachero says it is a back mutation? Is he credible yet? A back mutation after a few thousands of years? Don’t you think that the coincidences begin to be many? And I could continue. I am always waiting for Rozen’s SNPs, that I think will demonstrate that Eastern R1b1b2 are different from Western ones, ancestors of all our subclades.
I have given many proofs of my theories: the expansion of mtDNA U5b3 (certainly born in Italy) after the Younger Dryas as vector of some YDNA and I have asked to examine in the same way the expansion of mtDNA U6 in North Africa, I hypothesize linked with R1b1, etc. Here there are many possibilities, but what isn’t more sustainable is the recent ingression in Europe of a R1b1b2 a few thousands of years ago.
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Maliclavelli


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Jean M
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« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2010, 03:28:29 PM »

As I understand it - and I have still to read Cruciani's paper - , we are all V88-, so we are not in the same branch or line as the V88+ guys, who diverged from our ancestral line just downstream of P25. European R1b, on the other hand, came by way of the P297 route.

Here is Vince V.'s attractive graphic, showing the new R1b1 structure and how it relates to the clusters in his R1b1* project:

http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/images/NewR1b1Structure.png
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 03:30:40 PM by Jean M » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2010, 04:04:09 PM »

As I understand it - and I have still to read Cruciani's paper - , we are all V88-, so we are not in the same branch or line as the V88+ guys, who diverged from our ancestral line just downstream of P25. European R1b, on the other hand, came by way of the P297 route.

Here is Vince V.'s attractive graphic, showing the new R1b1 structure and how it relates to the clusters in his R1b1* project:

http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/images/NewR1b1Structure.png



Exactly, which makes the presence of two V88+ guys in Italy a curiosity and not much more.

Is someone arguing P25 arose first in Italy? I hope not!
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« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2010, 04:42:59 PM »

Rich, in Italy there aren't only two subclades of R/V88+, but also 3 over 5 R/V88- (the ancestor) found among all the people tested over the world! This, as says  "Il Marchese" in Goldoni's "La Locandiera", "fa la differenza" (makes the difference).
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2010, 04:53:58 PM »

Rich, in Italy there aren't only two subclades of R/V88+, but also 3 over 5 R/V88- (the ancestor) found among all the people tested over the world! This, as says  "Il Marchese" in Goldoni's "La Locandiera", "fa la differenza" (makes the difference).

Given Italy's proximity to the rest of Europe, shouldn't we see a smoother SNP trail out of Italy then? Shouldn't we see the older, less derived forms, like R-P25 and its clades, radiating out into Europe from Italy and evolving into the more derived forms as one moves north and west, north and east, and south and east (Italy as kind of a "Roman Candle" of R1b1 and derivatives)?

Why is it we seem to see more of that pattern from the Southeast (i.e., the Balkans) to the Northwest then?
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« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2010, 12:44:45 AM »

Rich, I have written thousands of postings and I have answered your questions. Of course I did hypotheses, but, by the arrival of new data, my hypotheses are more definite.
1)   Among all the R1b1, classified before the Cruciani’s paper by Vizachero I choose what is cluster A as ancestor of R1b1b2 (Sam Vass hoped till a few days ago that his cluster (B) was the ancestor). Now we find cluster A in the British Isles and in Spain, among Puerto Ricans who have a Spanish surname but we don’t know their exact origin (there are in Puerto Rico many Italians as testified a Puerto Rican who wrote on “dna-forums”). For this, not having found R1b1 in Italy, except a person tested in a paper on the Marche I signaled to Vizachero many years ago but he didn’t take in consideration, I thought that R1b1 has arrived to Italy from West (Spain? the Cantabrian Refugium? before the Younger Dryas) and said that in Italy was born only the subclades of R1b1. But now Cruciani has found the ancestor of the ancient R1b1, now R1b1/V88+, mostly in Italy and nowhere in Western Europe. For this I wrote that we can hypothesize that the presence of R in Italy could be more ancient than what I thought till a few days ago. Then it isn’t true what you are saying: as I have always written, the inhabitants of the British Isles come from Italy (do you remember when I said on “dna-forums” about the link between Italians and who takes Celtic surnames of Ireland and UK?) Of course I have always supported the hypothesis of an arrival from East, but of what? Of R1b, R1b1, but not of R1b1b2 yet formed and in recent times as you have thought till today.
2)   If my hypothesis of an Italian Refugium was right, I said that from Italy R1b1b2/L23+ went out from East, peopling the Balkans till Asia Minor, and probably were its descendants, that went to central Europe as LBK  or went out to West, peopling again South France (this is also the path of mtDNA U5b3, demonstrated in the paper which declared also that from South France this haplogroup migrate after to Sardinia probably with I-M26, now at 40% in the island.
3)   Italy lacks of some recent subclades of R1b1b2: R-M153 and R-M167, born from R1b1b2a1b in Spain or South France, but also your R-L21 is inexistent in Italy (Argiedude does not make a summer). It remains to explain the strong presence and overall of R-U152, but which can be arrived to Italy with Indo-European Italo-Celts from Central Europe.
This was my hypothesis.
Note how Vizachero, in his diagram posted by Jean, has doubled the R1b1* for sayng that the Italian R1b1/V88- are the ancestors of R1b1/ but not of the whole haplogroup. But in Italy we have the path of R1b1b2: L23-, L23+/L150-, L23+/L150+ (me) etc etc. I am waiting from many years that in other place Vizachero and the other find similar traces.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2010, 03:22:54 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2010, 08:15:01 PM »

I can't figure out why Gioiello insists on attacking me personally, instead of sticking to the facts but it is getting tiresome.

But let me be clear, as I think I was in the diagram which Jean linked, that there are two branches of R1b1:  one leading to P297 and the second to the remainder  of R1b1 (including the new R-V88 and the remaining R1b1*).  There is no sense in which either R-V88 or R1b1* is an "ancestor" of R-P297.

Also, for the handful of R1b1* we find in Italy we find more in SW Asia.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2010, 01:29:14 AM »

Cruciani found R1b1/V88-: 3 in Italy, 1 in Western Asia, 1 in Eastern Asia. If this is meaningful, this is the proportion. If R1b1 present in Western Asia are V88+, they can't be the ancestor of R-P297.
 
The question of R1b1b2 could be easily solved by testing the Rozen's SNPs.

About the attacks I was banned 2 times and you 0. If you want to know what a third person was thinking about my banishment from "dna-forums" ask Rokus01.

I have survived very well also in my wilderness.

The sum will be done at the end.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2010, 03:24:45 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2010, 04:14:57 AM »

« Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem»
(Ockham's razor)

Why should we accept the Vizachero’s diagram and not mine?

                        R1b1*

Cluster A          V88+           P297

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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2010, 05:52:54 PM »



http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k178/argiedude/R1b1xR1b1bmap-afterCrucianiV88study.gif

I think R1b1*/R1b1a can be split into 3 geographic blocs. There's a European zone of R1b1, where R1b1 is extremely rare and very different from other R1b1. There's a Saharan zone of R1b1, which includes North Africa, Egypt, Sudan, and the Sahel. And there's a sub-Saharan zone of R1b1, which includes West Africa, the Congo region, and Angola.

I say this because Cruciani, despite detecting 106 R1b1 samples from sub-Saharan Africa, didn't find a single sample of R1b1 that belonged to the distinctive sub-Saharan R1b1 cluster characterized by a very unusual mutation in the STR 385a.

Sub-Saharan R1b1 can be divided into 3 clusters, one with a distinctive .2 mutation in 385a, and a second one with 393=12 & 389B=14. The 3 clusters are found at roughly equal proportions in African Americans(*) in yhrd, as well as in African American(*) samples from ysearch; and all 3 clusters can be found in African samples from smgf, and all 3 clusters were found in a recent huge study of south Cameroon and Gabon. But Cruciani's study of V88 didn't find a single R1b1 with the .2 mutation in 385a, and his haplotype data shows that none had either 393=12. Almost all of Cruciani's sub-Saharan R1b1 samples came from the Sahel (105 out of 106). The study of south Cameroon and Gabon found 46 R1b1, of which 21 and 18 belonged to the ".2 mutation" and 393=12 clusters, respectively. In other words, 85% of the 46 R1b1 samples belonged to the 2 clusters that are completely absent from Cruciani's 106 sub-Saharan R1b1! There's no way this is due to some huge coincidence. Instead, the logical explanation is that sub-Saharan R1b1 once again reveals itself to be more complex than previously thought. So now, on top of the recent discoveries that there are in fact clusters within sub-Saharan R1b1, that its range extends deep into Africa, all the way to southern Angola, Rwanda, and Senegal, and that their haplotype diversity is very high, we now have to add the following fact: it's structured geographically. The R1b1 from the Sahel, which is where 105 out of 106 of Cruciani's R1b1 samples came from, are restricted to just 1 of the 3 sub-Saharan clusters, while in Gabon, Congo, and Angola, R1b1 is about evenly split between the 3 easily distinguishable sub-Saharan R1b1 clusters.

(*) African Americans have a huge amount of ancestry from the Congo/Angola region, though of course their West African ancestry is more important. Their R1b1 reflects the Congolese/Angolan R1b1: all 3 clusters present, and in roughly equal proportions. Also, the rate at which R1b1 is found in African Americans fits exactly with what would be expected given the known rates of R1b1 in West and Central Africa. This also informs us, indirectly, that R1b1 in the southern half of Nigeria, from where a huge part of African Americans' ancestry comes from, must be very low, around 1%. And this adds to the picture of a very sharp genetic differentiation (on the y-chromosome, at least) between the forest regions of the south (southern Nigeria & Cameroon) and the Sahel grasslands in the north (northern Nigeria & Cameroon). So we have added evidence of this sharp differentiation, which was already evident in the gigantic frequency differences of E1b1a: 25% in the north, 85% in the south. To this, we now add that R1b1 in the north belongs exclusively to only 1 of the known sub-Saharan R1b1 clusters, while R1b1 in the south holds all 3, while oddly enough having a much lower frequency of R1b1. To round out the bizareness of all this, keep in mind the distance between south and north Cameroon is 1000 km, equal to the distance between south Portugal and the Spanish-French border. That is proportionately one of the sharpest y-dna clines anywhere in the world.
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« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2010, 05:57:39 PM »



http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k178/argiedude/R1b1xR1b1bmap-afterCrucianiV88study.gif

Egyptian R1b1 is definitely more closely related to Sahelian R1b1 than to European R1b1. Sahel's R1b1 is 2/3 V88* and 1/3 V69. Egyptian R1b1, excluding the Siwa oasis which seems to have suffered genetic drift, is about 50-50 V88* and V69 (note that Siwa Oasis has both V88* and V69, but its V88* frequency seems abnormally high and is probably due to genetic drift since it's an oasis far away on the western border of Egypt). On the other hand, European and West Asian R1b1, totaling 9 samples, are about half and half V88- and V88+, with no sample of V69. And the haplotypes of European V88 are very different from Egyptian V88*.

North African R1b1 seems more related to Egyptian R1b1, and therefore to Sahelian R1b1. Almost all European R1b1 has DYS438=11, while almost all sub-Saharan R1b1 has 438=12. North African and Egyptian R1b1 belong overwhelingly to 438=12.

The R1b1 frequencies on the map show a gradually decreasing gradient from the central Sahel, through the Nile, and into North Africa. The percentages of R1b1 along this route are much higher than the percentages of R1b1 in Europe and West Asia. Together with the fact that North African & Egyptian R1b1 seem more related to Sahelian R1b1 (definitely in the case of Egypt), I'd dare to say that what we're looking at are 2 events: the initial diffusion of R1b1 from West Eurasia to sub-Saharan Africa, where it extended deep into Africa and evolved great complexity, and later, the diffusion of only a part of this now deeply entrenched sub-Saharan R1b1 back to North Africa & Egypt, via the Nile. The limited subset of sub-Saharan R1b1 that took part in this 2nd diffusion was dictated by the geographical structuring of R1b1 in sub-Saharan Africa that I noted in the previous post: Sahel R1b1 belongs exclusively to 1 of the 3 sub-Saharan R1b1 clusters, while Congolese/Angolan R1b1 is evenly split between all 3 clusters. One of these 3 sub-Saharan clusters is typified by an exceptionally rare mutation in DYS385a, which Cruciani was aware of and tested for in every single R1b1 sample, and didn't find even one. This shows that Egyptian R1b1, for which Cruciani found a dozen samples, is derived from Sahelian R1b1, and not from R1b1 deeper in Africa, where the "385a .2 mutation" cluster is a significant fraction of all R1b1 samples (actually, there are 36 North African/Egyptian R1b1 samples, which would prove my point even better, but 22 are from the Siwa Oasis, with the noted problem of genetic drift, so they don't really count as much).

One final comment, about Sardinia. In Contu's study of Sardinia, aside from the known Sardinian clade of R1b1a1-M18, she found quite a few samples of R1(xR1a1a,R1b1a1-M18,R1b1b2). I thought they were just an error, but their 4 haplotypes are extremely close to each other, and have only 1 close match in the other samples, a G sample, but it can't be possible that she made the same mistake 4 times in exactly the same manner. I've looked at ysearch and yhrd and their haplotype is also very unusual. They make up 1,4% of Sardinian y-dna (R1b1a1-M18 makes up 1,6%). Their haplotype is completely different from the better known R1b1a1-M18 of Sardinia, or from any other clade of R1b1*/R1b1a. So perhaps M18 has a sister clade in Sardinia? Two separate lineages of R1b1*/R1b1a existing in Sardinia? I also looked at Capelli's study of the Mediterranean, which included 81 Sardinian samples, and one of the R1(xR1a) samples has an exact match with these samples from Contu, though it's a very limited haplotype. If it really is a member of this apparently second clade of R1b1*/R1b1a of Sardinia, then its frequency would match perfectly: 1/81 = 1,2% (in Contu it's 1,4%, as I noted above).
« Last Edit: January 17, 2010, 06:04:54 PM by argiedude » Logged

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« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2010, 08:23:42 PM »

Gioiello, do you think you could email Cruciani and ask him if he's aware of the interesting R1b1* samples from Contu's study of Sardinia (not the M18 samples, of course), and if he could contact Contu and see if it's possible to have them tested for his newly discovered SNPs (V88, V69, etc.)?
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« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2010, 08:51:49 PM »

Dear Argiedude, I have no particular entrance to Cruciani or to Scozzari. I wrote to them many times in the past and I had no answer. I can forward your posting. But I forward it also to Francalacci, who is a compatriot of mine (from Livorno-Pisa), now teacher at Sassari and one of the most important scholars of the Sardinian genetics (the last the very important paper on mtDNA U5b3, that has definitely demonstrated an Italian Refugium during the Younger Dryas).
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« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2010, 10:34:22 PM »

Gioiello, I think that would be great.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 10:35:10 PM by argiedude » Logged

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« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2010, 07:55:17 AM »

No answer yet, but Paolo Francalacci is a friend of a friend of mine (a collegue who teaches Physics at my school: they studied at Pisa University together), I have had a mail exchange with him, we should have meet ourselves  for eating a "pizza", but he had problems and didn't come to Pisa. Then I think that the situation with him is very different than that with Scozzari or Cruciani. I'll be able to contact him and to have an answer.
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