L21: L195+ and L144+ .... other new SNP's?

[Mikewww]

Mike
I take you r point.  I am not too up on the whole STR thing and mainly stick to SNPs.  So, why do some lineages remain so close to the L21/S116 modal when others become so different?

Assuming that L21/S116's most recent common ancestral haplotype is WAMH, which it appears to be, I think it is just by chance.

I think of it like branches on the thick bush but there is sunlight from all directions. Some branch out and away and but some branch back (at least on this bush) and cross the older branches.

I'm visualizing throwing darts at a dart board.  Some miss the center by more than others but they are all thrown by the same thrower.  One thing that I have found a bit odd (for L21+ anyway) is that no darts ever seem to hit the center ring of the dart board.

Here are the R-L21* GD's from WAMH (at 67 using a both the step-wise and the infinite allele models combined)
0% GD <6
12.5% GD 6-10
53% GD 11-15
28% GD 16-20
6% GD 21-25
.5% GD 26-29
0% GD >29

The above doesn't include R-M222 but 61% of R-M222's people are in the 11-15 GD from WAMH so it corresponds with R-L21*.

[cmblandford]

I can't seem to put my finger on what conclusions concerning family origins one can draw by knowing GD from WAHM.  Are there any?

[Jdean]

I can't seem to put my finger on what conclusions concerning family origins one can draw by knowing GD from WAHM.  Are there any?

I would say none whatsoever

The important detail is where the people you most closely match came from, assuming a pattern emerges. Even then care needs to be taken, plenty of people fill there place of origin in based on surname evidence alone, and I know there is a person in the Welsh section of the L21 project who's place of origin is based on a 'three brother' tale, there surname is rare in England and unheard of in Wales as Aberystwyth library has told them.

[Mikewww]

I can't seem to put my finger on what conclusions concerning family origins one can draw by knowing GD from WAHM.  Are there any?

I would say none whatsoever ...

Agreed.  The only value I see related to knowing one's distance from WAMH is that if you haven't done deep clade testing yet, closeness to WAMH indicates you are R1b1b2.

It is actually a problem to be close to WAMH as you are most likely to run into noise from other clusters that you are not a part...  other branches that just happen to be crossing with yours.   

Conversely, if you are way out on the edge of the R1b1b2 bush you are more likely to find an unusual STR signature that can help you find a cluster.   The pitfall of that is if you are too far out of on the edge of the bush you are "all alone", an outlier who can't find any relations.

[GoldenHind]

Or you are a cluster of three, which is the case in my situation.

[rms2]

I can't seem to put my finger on what conclusions concerning family origins one can draw by knowing GD from WAHM.  Are there any?

I would say none whatsoever

The important detail is where the people you most closely match came from, assuming a pattern emerges. Even then care needs to be taken, plenty of people fill there place of origin in based on surname evidence alone, and I know there is a person in the Welsh section of the L21 project who's place of origin is based on a 'three brother' tale, there surname is rare in England and unheard of in Wales as Aberystwyth library has told them.

I put people in categories based on the info they supply. I'm not going to argue with someone about his own genealogy unless the claim is so plainly and embarrassingly erroneous as to bring the project into disrepute.

[Jdean]

I can't seem to put my finger on what conclusions concerning family origins one can draw by knowing GD from WAHM.  Are there any?

I would say none whatsoever

The important detail is where the people you most closely match came from, assuming a pattern emerges. Even then care needs to be taken, plenty of people fill there place of origin in based on surname evidence alone, and I know there is a person in the Welsh section of the L21 project who's place of origin is based on a 'three brother' tale, there surname is rare in England and unheard of in Wales as Aberystwyth library has told them.

I put people in categories based on the info they supply. I'm not going to argue with someone about his own genealogy unless the claim is so plainly and embarrassingly erroneous as to bring the project into disrepute.

Sorry Rich

I wasn't picking holes with you, clearly you can't inspect everybody’s genealogy closely and will have to take origins at face value unless something screams out. I only looked into this family because for some reason the member kept being put next to me on those split tree diagrams, no idea why we aren't exactly close.

Anyway maybe he does have Welsh heritage but it sure isn't a name I've ever come across in a Brit.

[rms2]

I can't seem to put my finger on what conclusions concerning family origins one can draw by knowing GD from WAHM.  Are there any?

I would say none whatsoever

The important detail is where the people you most closely match came from, assuming a pattern emerges. Even then care needs to be taken, plenty of people fill there place of origin in based on surname evidence alone, and I know there is a person in the Welsh section of the L21 project who's place of origin is based on a 'three brother' tale, there surname is rare in England and unheard of in Wales as Aberystwyth library has told them.

I put people in categories based on the info they supply. I'm not going to argue with someone about his own genealogy unless the claim is so plainly and embarrassingly erroneous as to bring the project into disrepute.

Sorry Rich

I wasn't picking holes with you, clearly you can't inspect everybody’s genealogy closely and will have to take origins at face value unless something screams out. I only looked into this family because for some reason the member kept being put next to me on those split tree diagrams, no idea why we aren't exactly close.

Anyway maybe he does have Welsh heritage but it sure isn't a name I've ever come across in a Brit.

If it's the name I'm thinking of, it looks German, and that's what I thought when he joined.

I don't have a lot of faith in those various trees. They can only work with the data put into them, so they will place people in close proximity who are only close relative to all the even more distant people involved.

[Jdean]

If it's the name I'm thinking of, it looks German, and that's what I thought when he joined.

I don't have a lot of faith in those various trees. They can only work with the data put into them, so they will place people in close proximity who are only close relative to all the even more distant people involved.

yes I thought so as well

I think the split tree works best helping to sort out reasonably similar results, as you say the problem is the data, if 80% of that is Isles and the rest spread out over Western Europe you have to expect a skewed response.

[cmblandford]

as you say the problem is the data

I would venture to say that is an understatement, although there is a heroic band trying to change that.  Mathematical pairing is wonderful but I won’t want to have to live with it.

[vineviz]

I think the split tree works best helping to sort out reasonably similar results, as you say the problem is the data, if 80% of that is Isles and the rest spread out over Western Europe you have to expect a skewed response.

Actually, the problem is the data but not the sampling. You could be 98% Isles and still get an accurate tree IF we were testing enough STRs with adequate mutation rates.  We aren't.  To fully resolve a R-L21 tree using just STRs we would need many, many more markers than we have available at the moment.

VV

[FJames]

Some of the families that have the 413a=16 apart from Whelan/Whalen (Irish) and the Bracewell/Braswell/Brazile (believed to be English),  are Prosser(Wales),  Markham/Marcum, a few McDonalds from North Yorkshire, a Smith, Clark, Cook and Fullam.
I believe that Carver is connected with the Bracewell/Bracwell family through a marriage.

The Brazile/Bracewell/Braswell are not connected with the Irish Brassail, who have a different haplotype.

I think the 413a has undergone a recLOH in the Whalen group from 413a/b 16/23 to 16/16 and then to 16/17.  I havent seen this in the other families yet.  I also wonder if it can go from 16/23 to 16/16,  can it also go to 23/23.
That would make finding matches even harder.

Rich and Dennis may be right in that will be a small group of families with this SNP, but Im hoping it goes back further.

Susan R has posted on the R21 Group that Prosser has come in positive for L144.

She also has posted on R21 Group and the "DNA forums" about a possible surname connection.