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Author Topic: L21: L195+ and L144+ .... other new SNP's?  (Read 4449 times)
Mike Walsh
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« on: January 04, 2010, 08:22:23 PM »

Rivergirl is asking
Quote
My relatives L21 pack came back the other day,
Whalin F8S98
L130- L144+ L159.2- L192- L193- L195+ L21+ L226- L96-
Does anyone know what L144 and L195 might signify?
[/quote]

I don't know of any other L144+ and L195+ folks and I didn't realize they were father/son (apparently) rather than brother/brother.  Does anyone know anything about these?
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« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2010, 01:09:05 PM »

Apparently Brazille of the Braswell Project 55018/RRKXT is L144+ in 23andMe. I'll add him to the R-L21* haplotype spreadsheet soon. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/files/  

I compared that kit to the only other L144+ I know of, Whalin's.   Here is what I found that was noticeable. The slowest moving off-modals were the 578=10, 617=10.  DYS578 is very slow.
Also, 413a=16 is 7 off of WAMH.  This is way, way out compared to the rest of R-L21*.

Some medium/faster moving markers that lined up as off-modal include 391=10, 446=12, 607=14.

The 578=10, 617=10, 413a=16 is a strong signature, indeed.   Any R1b1b2 with 413a that low is probably worth looking at.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 05:05:52 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2010, 01:21:10 PM »

Apparently Brazille of the Braswell Project 55018/RRKXT is L144+ in 23andMe. I'll add him to the R-L21* haplotype spreadsheet soon. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/files/ 

I compared that kit to the only other L144+ I know of, Whalin's.   Here is what I found that was noticeable. The slowest moving off-modals were the 578=8, 617=10.  DYS578 is very slow.
Also, 413a=16 is 7 off of WAMH.  This is way, way out compared to the rest of R-L21*.

Some medium/faster moving markers that lined up as off-modal include 391=10, 446=12, 607=14.

The 578=8, 617=10, 413a=16 is a strong signature, indeed.   Any R1b1b2 with 413a that low is probably worth looking at.

I believe the surname Brazille (and its variants like Brazil, Breazeale, etc.) is Irish, like Whelan, Whalen, etc., so maybe L144+ is another Irish SNP.
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« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2010, 02:19:55 PM »

I compared that kit to the only other L144+ I know of, Whalin's.   Here is what I found that was noticeable. The slowest moving off-modals were the 578=8, 617=10.  DYS578 is very slow.
Also, 413a=16 is 7 off of WAMH.  This is way, way out compared to the rest of R-L21*.

I was looking at this the other day and wondered at 413a myself, something that I found interesting though is about 1% of R1b men apparently have this value, then there is a gap for values 17 and 18 which are rarer and then you get a more normal distribution between values 19-26 with 23 being modal, kind of made me think this could be the key marker for this SNP, a bit like 13 at 492 for R-U106.
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« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2010, 03:32:16 PM »

I compared that kit to the only other L144+ I know of, Whalin's.   Here is what I found that was noticeable. The slowest moving off-modals were the 578=8, 617=10.  DYS578 is very slow.
Also, 413a=16 is 7 off of WAMH.  This is way, way out compared to the rest of R-L21*.

I was looking at this the other day and wondered at 413a myself, something that I found interesting though is about 1% of R1b men apparently have this value, then there is a gap for values 17 and 18 which are rarer and then you get a more normal distribution between values 19-26 with 23 being modal, kind of made me think this could be the key marker for this SNP, a bit like 13 at 492 for R-U106.
I did find some other guys in the R-L21* data that have below normal (but not this low) for 413a that also matched up on 3 or 4 other markers with Brazille and Whalen.  Perhaps L144+ is more widespread than we know.  I think I mentioned there is a Carver with a very similar haplotype.

I sent a note to the Braswell project admin's to let them know this might affect some of the categories in their project.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 03:33:24 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2010, 04:18:18 PM »

I compared that kit to the only other L144+ I know of, Whalin's.   Here is what I found that was noticeable. The slowest moving off-modals were the 578=8, 617=10.  DYS578 is very slow.
Also, 413a=16 is 7 off of WAMH.  This is way, way out compared to the rest of R-L21*.

I was looking at this the other day and wondered at 413a myself, something that I found interesting though is about 1% of R1b men apparently have this value, then there is a gap for values 17 and 18 which are rarer and then you get a more normal distribution between values 19-26 with 23 being modal, kind of made me think this could be the key marker for this SNP, a bit like 13 at 492 for R-U106.
I did find some other guys in the R-L21* data that have below normal (but not this low) for 413a that also matched up on 3 or 4 other markers with Brazille and Whalen.  Perhaps L144+ is more widespread than we know.  I think I mentioned there is a Carver with a very similar haplotype.

I sent a note to the Braswell project admin's to let them know this might affect some of the categories in their project.

I was quoting Leo Little's website for the frequency at that level but I'm having trouble finding all these people as well, perhaps there are some other off model slow mutating values associated with it as well.

BTW shouldn't 578 be 10 for this group?
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« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2010, 05:08:16 PM »

..... The slowest moving off-modals were the 578=10, 617=10.  DYS578 is very slow. Also, 413a=16 is 7 off of WAMH.
BTW shouldn't 578 be 10 for this group?
Yes, my typo. I corrected in the original post but the correct answer is 578=10 is off-modal for L144+ (so far.)
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« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2010, 08:43:35 PM »

Apparently Brazille of the Braswell Project 55018/RRKXT is L144+ in 23andMe. I'll add him to the R-L21* haplotype spreadsheet soon. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/files/ 

I compared that kit to the only other L144+ I know of, Whalin's.   Here is what I found that was noticeable. The slowest moving off-modals were the 578=8, 617=10.  DYS578 is very slow.
Also, 413a=16 is 7 off of WAMH.  This is way, way out compared to the rest of R-L21*.

Some medium/faster moving markers that lined up as off-modal include 391=10, 446=12, 607=14.

The 578=10, 617=10, 413a=16 is a strong signature, indeed.   Any R1b1b2 with 413a that low is probably worth looking at.

I believe the surname Brazille (and its variants like Brazil, Breazeale, etc.) is Irish, like Whelan, Whalen, etc., so maybe L144+ is another Irish SNP.
I posted this already on the yahoo group for L21, but I have a man, surname PROSSER, who matches these values. I suggested he order the L144 SNP and also join the L21 project. Since he joined the project immediately after I wrote to him, my guess is that he's also ordering the SNP.  Prosser is a Welsh surname, from ap Rosser/Rosyr/Roger. Rosser/Rosyr/Roger in turns comes from the Norman "Rhosier", which is supposedly Old Norse (or Old Germanic????). Definitely not Irish though!
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« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2010, 08:50:02 PM »


Some of the families that have the 413a=16 apart from Whelan/Whalen (Irish) and the Bracewell/Braswell/Brazile (believed to be English),  are Prosser(Wales),  Markham/Marcum, a few McDonalds from North Yorkshire, a Smith, Clark, Cook and Fullam.
I believe that Carver is connected with the Bracewell/Bracwell family through a marriage.

The Brazile/Bracewell/Braswell are not connected with the Irish Brassail, who have a different haplotype.

I think the 413a has undergone a recLOH in the Whalen group from 413a/b 16/23 to 16/16 and then to 16/17.  I havent seen this in the other families yet.  I also wonder if it can go from 16/23 to 16/16,  can it also go to 23/23.
That would make finding matches even harder.

Rich and Dennis may be right in that will be a small group of families with this SNP, but Im hoping it goes back further.
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« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2010, 09:30:28 PM »

It wouldn't surprise me if Braswell/Bracewell was an anglicization of the Gaelic original Breasail that is also rendered as Brazil (etc.).
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« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2010, 10:09:44 PM »

Yes,   I cant say much as I'm not a Braswell researcher.

I was given this link about the Braswell origins,  which in "The Early Bracewells in England" section, does say they are from Ireland. about 500 AD.
http://www.videoranch.net/sect-one.htm

I have no idea about the authenticity of this information.
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« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2010, 10:04:03 AM »

Yes,   I cant say much as I'm not a Braswell researcher.

I was given this link about the Braswell origins,  which in "The Early Bracewells in England" section, does say they are from Ireland. about 500 AD.
http://www.videoranch.net/sect-one.htm

I have no idea about the authenticity of this information.

I was just guessing based on the surnames that appear among Whelan's matches. There are a number of variations on Brazil. They all seem to match each other, despite the spelling variations, which leads me to conclude they have a common origin. Since Whelan traces his ancestry to east-central Ireland, and the surname Brazil is known to be an Irish surname (based on the Gaelic Breasail), it seems likely that Braswell/Bracewell is probably an anglicized version of that same surname.

I could be wrong, of course.
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« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2010, 02:42:59 PM »

The MacMartin Superfamily WTY participant’s results are in with a new SNP P314.2

Anybody any idea why this kit is referred to as Superfamily, or is the title being used in a very British way?

All other kits that have had results posted (actually there's only one left to do) have been tested for this SNP and are ancestral
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« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2010, 04:07:54 PM »

The MacMartin Superfamily WTY participant’s results are in with a new SNP P314.2

Anybody any idea why this kit is referred to as Superfamily, or is the title being used in a very British way?

All other kits that have had results posted (actually there's only one left to do) have been tested for this SNP and are ancestral


I'm not sure. I thought that title was reserved for the Kent family of Smallville. ;-)
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« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2010, 04:21:22 PM »

The MacMartin Superfamily WTY participant’s results are in with a new SNP P314.2

Anybody any idea why this kit is referred to as Superfamily, or is the title being used in a very British way?

All other kits that have had results posted (actually there's only one left to do) have been tested for this SNP and are ancestral


I'm not sure. I thought that title was reserved for the Kent family of Smallville. ;-)

Wasn't there an adoption issue with that lot?
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« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2010, 04:32:22 PM »

The MacMartin Superfamily WTY participant’s results are in with a new SNP P314.2     ....
Here are the guys I have as being similar haplotypes.   Most don't have 67 markers so it is hard to tell.

JZMAB - MacMartin - Scotland, Dal Riada (?Argyll and Bute)
66ZM6 - Reilly - Ireland, Co. Sligo
ZE24U - Kenan - Ireland N., Londonerry
WA9NQ - McLaughlin - Scotland
BR233 - Porter
BUA82 - Sherwood - England, Nottinghamshire
VKVF9 - Kelly
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« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2010, 04:33:16 PM »

Apparently Brazille of the Braswell Project 55018/RRKXT is L144+ in 23andMe. I'll add him to the R-L21* haplotype spreadsheet soon. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/files/ 

I compared that kit to the only other L144+ I know of, Whalin's.   Here is what I found that was noticeable. The slowest moving off-modals were the 578=8, 617=10.  DYS578 is very slow.
Also, 413a=16 is 7 off of WAMH.  This is way, way out compared to the rest of R-L21*.

Some medium/faster moving markers that lined up as off-modal include 391=10, 446=12, 607=14.

The 578=10, 617=10, 413a=16 is a strong signature, indeed.   Any R1b1b2 with 413a that low is probably worth looking at.

I believe the surname Brazille (and its variants like Brazil, Breazeale, etc.) is Irish, like Whelan, Whalen, etc., so maybe L144+ is another Irish SNP.
I posted this already on the yahoo group for L21, but I have a man, surname PROSSER, who matches these values. I suggested he order the L144 SNP and also join the L21 project. Since he joined the project immediately after I wrote to him, my guess is that he's also ordering the SNP.  Prosser is a Welsh surname, from ap Rosser/Rosyr/Roger. Rosser/Rosyr/Roger in turns comes from the Norman "Rhosier", which is supposedly Old Norse (or Old Germanic????). Definitely not Irish though!

We have another guy with L144+ and he has a different surname.  He is L144+ AND L195+.  Does anyone know the phylogeny of these two SNP's that are in the L21+ downstream package?  This new guy is 459b=9, GataH4=10,  534=16 if that means anything.

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« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2010, 09:40:54 AM »

I have tested postive for the P314.2 SNP, which is estimated at 4500 years. We are waiting for FTDNA to do this SNP as a stand alone test. I am guessing that Ron Kenan will test positive for it as well.
The test name MacMartin Superfamily was created to include all variations in spelling of Martin and to set it apart from the already existing Martin DNA study. It should be called Martin Ancient or some other name in the future, after we get enough test results from Northern Ireland and Western Scotland.




Here are the guys I have as being similar haplotypes.   Most don't have 67 markers so it is hard to tell.

JZMAB - MacMartin - Scotland, Dal Riada (?Argyll and Bute)
66ZM6 - Reilly - Ireland, Co. Sligo
ZE24U - Kenan - Ireland N., Londonerry
WA9NQ - McLaughlin - Scotland
BR233 - Porter
BUA82 - Sherwood - England, Nottinghamshire
VKVF9 - Kelly

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« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2010, 09:50:03 AM »

The project was named such to do two things; include all of the variations and spellings of Martin, and to separate the project from the already existing Martin DNA project at FTDNA.
In retrospect, it should have been named Martin or MacMartin Ancient, as this new SNP, the  P314.2, is reckoned at 4,500 years old.
We have asked FTDNA to provide the  P314.2 as a stand alone SNP test. I suspect you will find a proportional amount of Northern Irish and Western Scots, to include the families of the Erainn and Dal Riada, to have the SNP.
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« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2010, 10:23:26 AM »

Off the top of my head 4500yrs sounds a little old for an SNP downstream of R-L21, who's dong the calculations?
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« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2010, 10:30:00 AM »

The project was named such to do two things; include all of the variations and spellings of Martin, and to separate the project from the already existing Martin DNA project at FTDNA.
In retrospect, it should have been named Martin or MacMartin Ancient, as this new SNP, the  P314.2, is reckoned at 4,500 years old.
We have asked FTDNA to provide the  P314.2 as a stand alone SNP test. I suspect you will find a proportional amount of Northern Irish and Western Scots, to include the families of the Erainn and Dal Riada, to have the SNP.
Keith,

Did Martin kit 16473 test positive for any other of the new L21 downstream SNP's? L130 L144 L159.2 L192 L193 L195 L226 L96 ?

Has anyone else in R1b1b2 been tested for P314 yet?  Any of the other WTY participants?

Why do you reckon P314.2 to be 4500 years old?  That might be older than L21+'s MRCA itself.
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« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2010, 12:48:17 AM »

Brazil
It looks like Waterford was a hot-spot in the 1800's
 http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/surname/index.cfm?fuseaction=Go.&UserID=
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« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2010, 04:46:59 PM »

Regarding the P314 SNP, does Mike's table not indicate the MacMartin supercluster as having a MRCA that is much more recent that 4500 years ago?  From memory was it not more like 1200 years ago? 

That said, this cluster is very off-modal for L21 (or S116 or P310 etc).  It kind of gives the impression of having a long time as a separate lineage that branched off early at the root of the L21 tree (perhaps soon after L21) rather than being  something that branched off from an L21* thousands of years later like M222 and some of the other Medieval Irish clusters.  Is anyone capable of calculating the likely period required to go from the L21/S116 modal to te MacMartin supercluster modal? 
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« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2010, 05:29:54 PM »

Regarding the P314 SNP, does Mike's table not indicate the MacMartin supercluster as having a MRCA that is much more recent that 4500 years ago?  From memory was it not more like 1200 years ago?  

That said, this cluster is very off-modal for L21 (or S116 or P310 etc).  It kind of gives the impression of having a long time as a separate lineage that branched off early at the root of the L21 tree (perhaps soon after L21) rather than being  something that branched off from an L21* thousands of years later like M222 and some of the other Medieval Irish clusters.  Is anyone capable of calculating the likely period required to go from the L21/S116 modal to te MacMartin supercluster modal?  
Is this the group we are talking about?
R-L21-2213MM   4ZHRF - Hodge
R-L21-2213MM   ZE24U - Kenan - Ireland N., Londonerry
R-L21-2213MM   JZMAB - MacMartin - Scotland, Dal Riada (?Argyll and Bute)
R-L21-2213MM   WA9NQ - McLaughlin - Scotland
R-L21-2213MM   BR233 - Porter
R-L21-2213MM   66ZM6 - Reilly - Ireland, Co. Sligo
R-L21-2213MM   BUA82 - Sherwood - England, Nottinghamshire

If it is, unfortunately, I've only found ZE24U - Kenan and 66ZM6 - Reilly that have 67 markers tested.

Those two are off WAMH at 67 in the 16-17 GD range.  By the same GD calculations, I get just over 25% of R-L21* people at 17 or more GD from WAMH so I wouldn't say this group is particularly unusual.

If, and this is a big if, L21+ TMRCA is about 3600-3700 ybp, then that is the upper range, give or take whatever confidence range is correct.
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« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2010, 12:18:41 PM »

Mike
I take you r point.  I am not too up on the whole STR thing and mainly stick to SNPs.  So, why do some lineages remain so close to the L21/S116 modal when others become so different?
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