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Author Topic: Possible New SNP For R-P312* Guys: L176  (Read 2445 times)
rms2
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« on: January 01, 2010, 08:28:53 PM »

There could be some news in the search for an SNP to remove the asterisk from at least some R-P312* guys (or at least to move the asterisk one more space).

The new SNP is L176.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2009-12/1262118480

Quote

Pierre

the answer to your question is yes. The WTY project has discovered a new mutation, labelled L176, in 3 participants.

One participant is R1a, one is R-P312* and one is R-SRY2627+.

The working hypothesis is that the mutation has occurred twice, once in R1a (L176.1) and once in R-P312 (L176.2) and that L176.2 sits between P312 and SRY2627 in the R1b tree.

The hypothesis has gained new support this week as I have just discovered that I have been confirmed L176.2+ in addition to the original WTY participants - I am therefore the second SRY2627+ individual to test positive (and none have tested negative, as far as I know).

The mutation is an insertion of a repeat motif and as such is likely to recur more often than a "true" SNP but so far it does not appear to have occurred more than twice in the tree, at least within haplogroup R. I think it would be useful for anyone who is P312* to order this test from the advanced SNP menu.

If anyone else has ordered this test or has a positive result from a WTY run, please could they let me know on or off list.

Gareth
« Last Edit: January 01, 2010, 08:29:39 PM by rms2 » Logged

alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2010, 09:36:10 PM »

I think dividing the P312* block is very important to understanding the history of R1b1b2 in western Europe.  P312* today encompases the immediate ancestors of L21, U152 etc as well as those who went on to remain * guys.  My guess is that there was likely not enough time between P312 and L21 etc for high hopes of further SNPs to falling in between them.  However, by most estimates there has been 4000 years netween P312 and today so it seems to me common sense that there will be SNPs downstream of P312 that split the P312* block up. The same is of course true for L21, U152 etc.  Clearly the less downstream from S116 an SNP is then the more that it might tell us by truly splitting it in half.  It is a matter of dissapointment that downstream SNPs seem to be much younger (c. 2 or 3000 years younger) than S116, L21 etc and often essentially local.  That is good for genealogy and even perhaps Medieval clan history but they do not help in terms of deep time.  That does also beg the question as to why there is a big cluster of SNPs and clades dated to around the same time about 4000 or so years ago but then there is not much downstream until the AD period 2-3000 years later when there seems to be another cluster.  That must relate to demographics.  
« Last Edit: January 01, 2010, 09:38:13 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
GoldenHind
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« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2010, 04:34:13 PM »

Some may be interested to learn that the sole P312* (ie SRY2627-) who has been found so far to be positive for L176.2 is Plies, whose ancestors come from Hannover in northern Germany. He was chosen for the P312* WTY test as a representative of Nordtvedt's R1b-Ub (for ubquitous) cluster. According to Ken, this cluster has a distribution across western Europe, from Scandinavia and Germany through the British Isles and Iberia. However I am not making any predictions about the identification of 176.2 and R1b-Ub based on a single hit. But it will be interesting to follow.
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rms2
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« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2010, 10:01:43 AM »

Some may be interested to learn that the sole P312* (ie SRY2627-) who has been found so far to be positive for L176.2 is Plies, whose ancestors come from Hannover in northern Germany. He was chosen for the P312* WTY test as a representative of Nordtvedt's R1b-Ub (for ubquitous) cluster. According to Ken, this cluster has a distribution across western Europe, from Scandinavia and Germany through the British Isles and Iberia. However I am not making any predictions about the identification of 176.2 and R1b-Ub based on a single hit. But it will be interesting to follow.

I'm hoping enough R-P312* guys order the test. So far I don't recall any orders for it from R-P312 and Subclades Project members.

I assume Dr. Krahn has eliminated the possibility that L176 is shared by R1a1, R-P312* and R-SRY2627 because it is way down the tree, i.e., shared by everyone who is M173+.
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vtilroe
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« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2010, 03:18:50 PM »

Some may be interested to learn that the sole P312* (ie SRY2627-) who has been found so far to be positive for L176.2 is Plies, whose ancestors come from Hannover in northern Germany. He was chosen for the P312* WTY test as a representative of Nordtvedt's R1b-Ub (for ubquitous) cluster. According to Ken, this cluster has a distribution across western Europe, from Scandinavia and Germany through the British Isles and Iberia. However I am not making any predictions about the identification of 176.2 and R1b-Ub based on a single hit. But it will be interesting to follow.

I'm hoping enough R-P312* guys order the test. So far I don't recall any orders for it from R-P312 and Subclades Project members.

I assume Dr. Krahn has eliminated the possibility that L176 is shared by R1a1, R-P312* and R-SRY2627 because it is way down the tree, i.e., shared by everyone who is M173+.
It was Didier who had prompted a survey of all the R1b WTY participants for L176 -- which is not an SNP but is actually a pentanucleotide insertion [AAAAC] within a microsatellite region: Chimp has 4 repeats, HUGO and almost everyone else has 6 repeats, but McDonald (R1a),  Didier (R-SRY2627) and Plies (R-P312*) all had 7 repeats.

As it turned out, it isn't being detected properly by the Finch program, and each chromat has to be checked manually.  I had double-checked the chromats for the other P312 and U106 WTYers (including myself) last month and confirmed Didier's findings.
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YSearch & MitoSearch: 2GXWW


yDNA: R-U106*


mtDNA: U5a1a1 (Genbank# GQ368895)


R-P312-WTY Project Admin http://tinyurl.com/daertg

rms2
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« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2010, 03:56:38 PM »

Despite the fact that L176 is not actually an SNP, is it being used in a similar fashion, i.e., as something that happens rarely enough so that it can satisfactorily classify those who have it into relatively large groups of men who descend from a single ancestor?
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vtilroe
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« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2010, 04:56:07 AM »

Despite the fact that L176 is not actually an SNP, is it being used in a similar fashion, i.e., as something that happens rarely enough so that it can satisfactorily classify those who have it into relatively large groups of men who descend from a single ancestor?
I believe it could, due to the fact that it has a long repeat motif, but a very low repeat count.  We won't know the statistics for certain (i.e. mutation rate, variability) until a lot more guys get tested for it.  Certainly it can be put to good use for more 'recent' time frames, and the last 4000 years would definitely apply.
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YSearch & MitoSearch: 2GXWW


yDNA: R-U106*


mtDNA: U5a1a1 (Genbank# GQ368895)


R-P312-WTY Project Admin http://tinyurl.com/daertg

rms2
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« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2010, 12:32:17 PM »

I put out a bulk email to the guys in the R-P312 and Subclades Project on L176 (or "L176.2"). Since then there have been many orders for the test, so we should start finding out something about it in a few weeks.
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rms2
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« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2010, 08:53:07 PM »

There are a number of L176.2 results this evening (I didn't count the number - I'm tired).

The only positives (two) were both R-SRY2627.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2010, 05:13:54 PM »

There are a number of L176.2 results this evening (I didn't count the number - I'm tired).

The only positives (two) were both R-SRY2627.
Am I correct that Plies is so far the only R1b positive for L176.2 that isn't SRY2627?
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rms2
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« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2010, 06:16:46 PM »

There are a number of L176.2 results this evening (I didn't count the number - I'm tired).

The only positives (two) were both R-SRY2627.
Am I correct that Plies is so far the only R1b positive for L176.2 that isn't SRY2627?

Yes.

Every R-SRY2627 guy who has ordered the L176.2 test has been positive, but all the R-P312* (except Plies) who have been tested for L176.2 have come up negative.

Maybe L165 will prove a better investment, whenever it becomes available.
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RickA
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« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2010, 11:38:37 AM »

There are a number of L176.2 results this evening (I didn't count the number - I'm tired).

The only positives (two) were both R-SRY2627.
Am I correct that Plies is so far the only R1b positive for L176.2 that isn't SRY2627?
Yes.

Every R-SRY2627 guy who has ordered the L176.2 test has been positive, but all the R-P312* (except Plies) who have been tested for L176.2 have come up negative.



Still so?
« Last Edit: February 13, 2010, 11:40:09 AM by RickA » Logged

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rms2
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« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2010, 01:10:38 PM »

There are a number of L176.2 results this evening (I didn't count the number - I'm tired).

The only positives (two) were both R-SRY2627.
Am I correct that Plies is so far the only R1b positive for L176.2 that isn't SRY2627?
Yes.

Every R-SRY2627 guy who has ordered the L176.2 test has been positive, but all the R-P312* (except Plies) who have been tested for L176.2 have come up negative.



Still so?

Yes, unfortunately.

We haven't had any L176.2 results show up in awhile. I think that's due to FTDNA's big FGS sale. Lately just about everything has been mtDNA. It's frustrating, because I have been waiting on some Deep Clade-R results that have already been postponed twice and were due (again) yesterday (the second revised date).
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