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Mike Walsh
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« on: December 18, 2009, 04:55:55 PM »

Not much attention has been paid to L193, one of the new downstream SNP's for R-L21*.  The spreadsheet out on R-L21 Yahoo group has this info in it.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/

Here are the guys that are L193+ that I know of:
9139    TWUSB - Kennedy - Ireland
120031  CJT6H - Meeks - England, Westmoreland, Chilburn
46029   4PA5G - Newton
159822  2YAG7 - Meek - Scotland

I don't think that 3 of the above ever did a deep clade R test but
apparently their L193+ has earned them a green R1b1b2a1b5 with FTDNA.

This looks like an SNP that is found in people who are off-modal
406s1=11 617=13 640=12. It may be broader (or narrower) than that but not enough testing has been done.

It's in what I call 11-13 Combo Group A.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L21-1113Combo/default.aspx
Group A has a lot of Kelly's, Elliott's and Vance's in it but there also Ferguson's, McGuire's, McCown's.  There seems to be an Irish Ulster/Scottish affinity but the English are included also in Group A.
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« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2010, 05:48:19 PM »

Not much attention has been paid to L193, one of the new downstream SNP's for R-L21*.  The spreadsheet out on R-L21 Yahoo group has this info in it.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/

Here are the guys that are L193+ that I know of:
9139    TWUSB - Kennedy - Ireland
120031  CJT6H - Meeks - England, Westmoreland, Chilburn
46029   4PA5G - Newton
159822  2YAG7 - Meek - Scotland

I don't think that 3 of the above ever did a deep clade R test but
apparently their L193+ has earned them a green R1b1b2a1b5 with FTDNA.

This looks like an SNP that is found in people who are off-modal
406s1=11 617=13 640=12. It may be broader (or narrower) than that but not enough testing has been done.

It's in what I call 11-13 Combo Group A.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L21-1113Combo/default.aspx
Group A has a lot of Kelly's, Elliott's and Vance's in it but there also Ferguson's, McGuire's, McCown's.  There seems to be an Irish Ulster/Scottish affinity but the English are included also in Group A.

L193 is picking up a little steam.  We added these two new L193+ people.  Both fit into the 11-13 Combo Group A.
83065 HTNQV - Stevens - England, London
46951 JPHN5 - Ferguson

A couple more people in 11-13 are going to test for it so we'll know more, but I've got another potential target test group - Irish Type IV.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 05:53:29 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2010, 10:54:20 PM »

Not much attention has been paid to L193, one of the new downstream SNP's for R-L21*.  The spreadsheet out on R-L21 Yahoo group has this info in it.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/

Here are the guys that are L193+ that I know of:
9139    TWUSB - Kennedy - Ireland
120031  CJT6H - Meeks - England, Westmoreland, Chilburn
46029   4PA5G - Newton
159822  2YAG7 - Meek - Scotland

I don't think that 3 of the above ever did a deep clade R test but
apparently their L193+ has earned them a green R1b1b2a1b5 with FTDNA.

This looks like an SNP that is found in people who are off-modal
406s1=11 617=13 640=12. It may be broader (or narrower) than that but not enough testing has been done.

It's in what I call 11-13 Combo Group A.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L21-1113Combo/default.aspx
Group A has a lot of Kelly's, Elliott's and Vance's in it but there also Ferguson's, McGuire's, McCown's.  There seems to be an Irish Ulster/Scottish affinity but the English are included also in Group A.

L193 is picking up a little steam.  We added these two new L193+ people.  Both fit into the 11-13 Combo Group A.
83065 HTNQV - Stevens - England, London
46951 JPHN5 - Ferguson

A couple more people in 11-13 are going to test for it so we'll know more, but I've got another potential target test group - Irish Type IV.

We've got a L193+ Dugger as well.   We found that just having 640=12 617=13 406s1=11 doesn't guarantee you are L193+.  It appears to be that 534 of WAMH or less is important, not 534>=16.

I think there will be a stack of L193+ people with surnames like Clendenin/Glendening, Elliott, Little/Lytle, McCown, McClain/McLean, Proffit, Vance/Vans/Vaus and Ward.. even a Robertson or two. Of course, they need to be the subsets of those surnames that fit the signature. A lot of Scottish Border, Grampians and Highland people with Irish Ulster folks.
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« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2010, 07:57:32 PM »

Vans (Ysearch DKAVZ) got his L193+ result today. That group is really starting to grow.
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« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2010, 09:29:50 PM »

Vans (Ysearch DKAVZ) got his L193+ result today. That group is really starting to grow.

Here is who they think their MDKA is.  They think the surname comes from one of two guys named de Vaux who accompanied William the Conqueror.

Quote from: JamieVans
The first member of the Vans family to inhabit Barnbarroch was John who, in 1384, obtained
the land from Archibald, Earl of Douglas and Lord of Galloway. At this time the house or
castle was presumably a fortified tower of a type then common in the Scottish borders and
which can still be seen in a few places.
A charter granted to Robert Vaus by William, Earl of Douglas, presumably the 8th Earl, on 26
Jan 1451 is among the Barnbarroch papers now in the Scottish Record Office.
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« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2010, 09:40:24 PM »

Vans (Ysearch DKAVZ) got his L193+ result today. That group is really starting to grow.
Here is the latest list:
4PA5G - Newton - England
834UR - Glandenning - Scotland
TWUSB - Kennedy - Ireland N., Co. Down, Tyrone
2YAG7 - Meek - Scotland
CJT6H - Meeks - England, Westmoreland, Chilburn
CKQER - Dugger
97NGJ - McLain
HTNQV - Stevens - England, London Co., Stepney
JPHN5 - Ferguson
DKAVZ - Vans(Barnbarroch) - Scotland, Wigtown, Barnbarroch

They are all 11-13 Combo group members, but with the 640=12 additional off-modal.  We've got a couple of more with the STR signature just sign up for the L193 test so I think we'll be adding to the group a few more names, like a good size group of Elliot's.

I do feel somewhat good that we are not wasting a lot of people's money by recommending testing only those that seem to "fit."
« Last Edit: April 07, 2010, 11:16:10 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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NealtheRed
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« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2010, 08:33:38 AM »

Speaking of Dugger, I actually think the McClain in the L159 Project is L193. I think you mentioned him before. Maybe I should have him transfer over, or he already is a member of L193...?

There is some interesting overlap here; I don't know if it means anything. We have some Fergusons and Elliotts who match the L159 modal (one Ferguson is L159+ and is CCGG), among other surnames with history from the same area of Britain, and so forth.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2010, 08:33:53 AM by NealtheRed » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2010, 12:33:33 PM »

Speaking of Dugger, I actually think the McClain in the L159 Project is L193. I think you mentioned him before. Maybe I should have him transfer over, or he already is a member of L193...?

There is some interesting overlap here; I don't know if it means anything. We have some Fergusons and Elliotts who match the L159 modal (one Ferguson is L159+ and is CCGG), among other surnames with history from the same area of Britain, and so forth.
The McClain in the L159 project is 37870.  He is also in the 11-13 Combo Project.  He has not tested for either L159 or L193.

There are several 11-13 people within 64/67 of McClain 37870.

Their surnames are Dugger, MacLean, Martin, McClain, McLain, McLean, Robertson and Ward.

Two of those close GD's are confirmed L193+.
N19218 Dugger
38840 McLain

One of the Dugger's believes their genealogy traces to a McClain.

All of these people are in the variety I label R-L21 11-13 Combo Group A-1.  The story is unfolding that they might be (some of them think definitely) Scottish Borders region people who came there with the Normans.
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« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2010, 01:03:26 PM »

L193+ results are piling up with consistency.  There are now 19 known L193+ people.  So far everyone who is R1b1b2 617>=13 406s1>=11 640=12 and usually both (but sometimes either) 607>=16 534<=14 is L193+.  I call it 11-13 Combo Group A-1.

f36614   Charles (Clendennen) Drew, b.c.1812, Orange Co., North Carolina, USA (Ireland/Scotland)   ZVY8R,
f168205   John Duff, b.c.1740, Little Dunkeld Parish, Perthshire, Scotland    S7YEZ,
fN19218   John Dugger, Sr., b.c.1720, Surry Co., Virginia, USA   CKQER,
f55229   Elliott, b. N. Ireland   8ZYXG,
f132511   Anthony Elliott, b.1610, Scotland   Z45D4,
f46951   Christopher Scott Ferguson    JPHN5,
f49038   George Glandenning, b.c.1663, Scotland   834UR,
f29644   John Glendenning, Pennsylvania or Virginia or W. Virginia (Dumfriesshire, Scotland)   X64X5,
f9139   James Kennedy, b.c.1735, Tyrone, Ireland   TWUSB,
f27531   James Little, b.1831, Clare, Co. Down, Ireland; d.1901   EUUEK,
f144090   James Little, b.1816, Co. Armagh, Northern Ireland   DGYM4,
f44265   Angus Martin, b.c.1805, Torrisdale & Campbeltown, Argyllshire Scotland    XMBGU,
f38840   McLain, b.1784, ?North Carolina, USA, d.Weakley Co, TN, USA   97NGJ,
f159822   William Meek,  b.1795, Scotland   2YAG7,
f120031   Meeks, b. England   CJT6H,
f46029   Isaac Newton, lived 1756 in Duplin County, North Carolina, USA   4PA5G,
fN47616   Patrick Neill/O'Neill, b.1850, Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
f83065   Edward Stevens, b.1641, Stepney, London, England    HTNQV,
f39200   John Vaux, d.c.1385, Scotland, Wigtown, Barnbarroch - 1300's   DKAVZ,
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« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2010, 01:08:16 PM »

L193+ results are piling up with consistency.  There are now 19 known L193+ people.  So far everyone who is R1b1b2 617>=13 406s1>=11 640=12 and usually both (but sometimes either) 607>=16 534<=14 is L193+.  I call it 11-13 Combo Group A-1.

f36614   Charles (Clendennen) Drew, b.c.1812, Orange Co., North Carolina, USA (Ireland/Scotland)   ZVY8R,
f168205   John Duff, b.c.1740, Little Dunkeld Parish, Perthshire, Scotland    S7YEZ,
fN19218   John Dugger, Sr., b.c.1720, Surry Co., Virginia, USA   CKQER,
f55229   Elliott, b. N. Ireland   8ZYXG,
f132511   Anthony Elliott, b.1610, Scotland   Z45D4,
f46951   Christopher Scott Ferguson    JPHN5,
f49038   George Glandenning, b.c.1663, Scotland   834UR,
f29644   John Glendenning, Pennsylvania or Virginia or W. Virginia (Dumfriesshire, Scotland)   X64X5,
f9139   James Kennedy, b.c.1735, Tyrone, Ireland   TWUSB,
f27531   James Little, b.1831, Clare, Co. Down, Ireland; d.1901   EUUEK,
f144090   James Little, b.1816, Co. Armagh, Northern Ireland   DGYM4,
f44265   Angus Martin, b.c.1805, Torrisdale & Campbeltown, Argyllshire Scotland    XMBGU,
f38840   McLain, b.1784, ?North Carolina, USA, d.Weakley Co, TN, USA   97NGJ,
f159822   William Meek,  b.1795, Scotland   2YAG7,
f120031   Meeks, b. England   CJT6H,
f46029   Isaac Newton, lived 1756 in Duplin County, North Carolina, USA   4PA5G,
fN47616   Patrick Neill/O'Neill, b.1850, Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
f83065   Edward Stevens, b.1641, Stepney, London, England    HTNQV,
f39200   John Vaux, d.c.1385, Scotland, Wigtown, Barnbarroch - 1300's   DKAVZ,

Behind the above names are large groups of MacLean/McLean/McClain, Little/Lytle, Vance/Vans/Vaus/Vaux, Clendinning/Glandenning/Clendennen and Elliott hapltype peoples who might all be L193+.  Much of the folklore goes back to the Scottish Border Reivers... Anglo-Scots.

There also may be a decent number of  Lemon/Lemmons and Irving/Irvine people.

Two genealogists feel sure they have a Norman connection.  Another feels this is of Jute or Saxon origin. 
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2010, 02:41:22 PM »

That's interesting you mention the Glendennings and Elliots. Those are famous Border Clans, among other surnames in the cluster.
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« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2010, 11:18:20 PM »

Ol' Man River just keeps rolling. Just like the Mississippi and the Volga (or perhaps the Seine), L193+ keeps on rolling. 

We've now got 22 L193+ (ISOGG R1b1b2a1a2f5) confirmed people now.  So far they all seem to fit in the R-L21* 406s1>=11, 617>=13, 640=12 pattern I call 11-13 Group A-1.  We are catching 100% on our casts with 22 derived of 22 tested within that group.


f36614   Charles (Clendennen) Drew, b.c.1812, Orange Co., North Carolina, USA (Ireland/Scotland) ZVY8R,
f168205   John Duff, b.c.1740, Little Dunkeld Parish, Perthshire, Scotland    S7YEZ,
fN19218   John Dugger, Sr., b.c.1720, Surry Co., Virginia, USA CKQER,
f55229   Elliott, b. N. Ireland 8ZYXG,
f132511   Anthony Elliott, b.1610, Scotland Z45D4,
f46951   Christopher Scott Ferguson  JPHN5,
f49038   George Glandenning, b.c.1663, Scotland 834UR,
f29644   John Glendenning, Pennsylvania or Virginia or W. Virginia (Dumfriesshire, Scotland)   X64X5,
f9139   James Kennedy, b.c.1735, Tyrone, Ireland   TWUSB,
f144090   James Little, b.1816, Co. Armagh, Northern Ireland DGYM4,
f27531   James Little, b.1831, Clare, Co. Down, Ireland; d.1901   EUUEK,
f44265   Angus Martin, b.c.1805, Torrisdale & Campbeltown, Argyllshire Scotland XMBGU,
f143047   Hector McLain, b..c. 1650, Scotland GU6FJ,
f38840   McLain, b.1784, ?North Carolina, USA, d.Weakley Co, TN, USA   97NGJ,
f159822   William Meek,  b.1795, Scotland   2YAG7,
f120031   Meeks, b. England CJT6H,
f46029   Isaac Newton, lived 1756 in Duplin County, North Carolina, USA   4PA5G,
fN47616   Patrick Neill/O'Neill, b.1850, Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
f83065   Edward Stevens, b.1641, Stepney, London, England HTNQV,
f65717   Andrew Vance, b.c.1754, Frederick, Virginia, USA    PBEGX,
f39200   John Vaux, d.c.1385, Scotland, Wigtown, Barnbarroch DKAVZ,
f125524   Unknown (adopted)   B79KZ,
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« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2010, 07:09:40 AM »

Has anyone tried to calculate a TMRCA yet, even just using McGee's Utility?
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« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2010, 12:05:32 PM »

The vast majority of that list sound like a Scottish or ulster scots/scotch Irish.  It's so overwhelming it's hard not to feel it is a Scottish clade
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« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2010, 12:22:39 PM »

I downloaded Tim Janzen's spreadsheet which I think is a version of Ken Nortvedt's.

Looking at all of 11-13 Group A-1 haplotypes, which I think is reflective of L193+, I  get about 900 AD as the date of the MRCA.

What's the status of 29753   Malger-le-Jeune, Compte de St Clair, c.1033, Corbu from the Normandy project.  Did he come out P312* or L21+?   He generally fits the 11-13 A-1 haplotype although both his 406s1 and 617 are one step higher yet (and further away on the high side from WAMH.)

Mike

Has anyone tried to calculate a TMRCA yet, even just using McGee's Utility?
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« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2010, 01:04:04 PM »

The vast majority of that list sound like a Scottish or ulster scots/scotch Irish.  It's so overwhelming it's hard not to feel it is a Scottish clade

Yes, I put all of the R-L21* 11-13 A-1 MDKA's (which I think are all L193+) on a map and it is pure Scotland over to Ulster.  Many of the Ulster MDKA's have a folklore they are from Scotland.

The following are quotes from a Vance genealogist.
Quote from: Adam Bradford
The unique surname count doesn't do justice to the most striking aspect of the A-1 clade, which is the preponderance within it of men from just 5 surnames:
Elliott, Glendenning, Little, McClain, and Vance (and variants of these).

Also striking is the preponderance and/or prominence of the A-1 men within the total tested population of those surnames. In the case of Elliott, they are the largest single group of tested Elliotts and also those who have the best claim to descent from the mainstream Elliotts of Liddesdale. The A-1 men in the Glendenning DNA project are the vast majority, by my last count 70% of the whole. The McClain men are diverse, which isn't surprising considering it's a highland surname; but the A-1 McClains do constitute the largest single group of closely related men in that project, by my last reckoning. In the Vance project, the A-1 men are not only the largest grouping but the one that contains the present-day heir of the Scottish noble line, with a very helpful pedigree back to the 14th century. The A-1 Littles are similarly a very large portion of all Littles tested. With the exception of McClain, these surnames have traditions of descent back to the Scottish border region during the period from 1100-1400, a timeframe that happens to accord well with various MRCA estimates.

Quote from: Adam Bradford
The McClain surname is the only one that doesn't fit into the borders region. The Glendennings were in Eskdale about 20 miles from the Elliott seat at Redheugh. The Vances come from the de Vaux of Galloway, who are a cadet branch of the Vaus of Dirleton in Lothian. There is circumstantial evidence (as well as tradition) tying them to the Vaus family at Gillisland, which is on the English side of the border. Another thread tying together the Elliott, Glendenning, Little, and Vance families is that they all served or held their land under the Douglases. Since the Douglases were seemingly ubiquitous on the borders, that may not be significant.
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« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2010, 07:27:08 PM »


. . .

What's the status of 29753   Malger-le-Jeune, Compte de St Clair, c.1033, Corbu from the Normandy project.  Did he come out P312* or L21+?   He generally fits the 11-13 A-1 haplotype although both his 406s1 and 617 are one step higher yet (and further away on the high side from WAMH.)

Mike

He is still waiting for an L21 result.
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« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2010, 10:02:36 PM »

. . .  What's the status of 29753 Malger-le-Jeune, Compte de St Clair, c.1033, Corbu from the Normandy project.  Did he come out P312* or L21+?   He generally fits the 11-13 A-1 haplotype although both his 406s1 and 617 are one step higher yet (and further away on the high side from WAMH.)
He is still waiting for an L21 result.

The reason I'm interested is St. Clair has a similar haplotype to Newton, who is L193+.   Five people in the St.Clair/Sinclair/Sinkler surname project with 67 length Ht's that have 64-66 of 67 matches with 29753 St. Clair of Normandy.

There are three Newtons that appear to match with the L193+ Newton but he is the only one of the three with 67 markers.

The St. Clair's and Newton have the following off-modals in common:
464=15,16,17,17
456=17
607=16
576=19
534=14
572=12
640=12

They are also all high off-modal at 406s1 and 617.
St. Clair's    Newtons
406s1=12     =11
617=14        =13

The Newtons are in the 56-58 of 67 GD range of the St. Clair's.  The L193+ Elliott's (of Border Reivers origins) are in the same GD range.

The other two St. Clair's are from Wick and Glasgow, Scotland.  The Newton's are from England, but don't have specific info.
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« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2010, 07:16:50 AM »

As soon as he gets an L21+ result (if he gets an L21+ result), I will announce it on this thread. I will also ask him to order an L193 test.
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« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2010, 07:28:02 AM »

. . .  What's the status of 29753 Malger-le-Jeune, Compte de St Clair, c.1033, Corbu from the Normandy project.  Did he come out P312* or L21+?   He generally fits the 11-13 A-1 haplotype although both his 406s1 and 617 are one step higher yet (and further away on the high side from WAMH.)
He is still waiting for an L21 result.

The reason I'm interested is St. Clair has a similar haplotype to Newton, who is L193+.   Five people in the St.Clair/Sinclair/Sinkler surname project with 67 length Ht's that have 64-66 of 67 matches with 29753 St. Clair of Normandy.

There are three Newtons that appear to match with the L193+ Newton but he is the only one of the three with 67 markers.

The St. Clair's and Newton have the following off-modals in common:
464=15,16,17,17
456=17
607=16
576=19
534=14
572=12
640=12

They are also all high off-modal at 406s1 and 617.
St. Clair's    Newtons
406s1=12     =11
617=14        =13

The Newtons are in the 56-58 of 67 GD range of the St. Clair's.  The L193+ Elliott's (of Border Reivers origins) are in the same GD range.

The other two St. Clair's are from Wick and Glasgow, Scotland.  The Newton's are from England, but don't have specific info.

St. Clair just got his L21+ result.
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