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rms2
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« on: December 13, 2009, 02:43:40 PM »

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2009-12/1260673571

Quote
From the European Genetics and Anthropology Blog:

"Germans test Funnelbeaker (TRB) Culture aDNA

About 250 Funnelbeaker (Trichterbecherkultur) and Wartberg Culture
skeletons are being tested for Y-DNA, mtDNA and autosomal SNP and STR
markers at a lab in Kiel. They come from 3400-3000BC burial sites at
Panker, eastern Schleswig-Holstein, Großenrode and Odagsen, southern
Lower Saxony, and Calden, North Hessen. All of those places are in
North-Central Germany. The scientists not only hope to determine the
biogeographic origins of the samples, but also their pigmentation
traits, by looking at SNPs associated with hair, skin and eye color.

Verwandtschaft, Abstammung und Phänotyp. Genetische Zusammensetzung
mittelneolithischer Populationen und ihre Beziehung zu sozialen
Differenzierungen 3400-3000cal BC "

It should be interesting to see what results they come up with.

I wish more of this kind of thing were being done!
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Jdean
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« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2009, 03:21:44 PM »

Somebody on the DNA Forum insists he won’t believe L21 doesn’t hale from Ireland until the dig up proven ancient L21 skeletons from mainland Europe, I wonder how many it will take to change his mind.
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rms2
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« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2009, 03:51:06 PM »

Somebody on the DNA Forum insists he won’t believe L21 doesn’t hale from Ireland until the dig up proven ancient L21 skeletons from mainland Europe, I wonder how many it will take to change his mind.

I don't think even that would convince him (I don't know who he is, but I can guess). He would probably attribute the ancient Euro L21+ to even earlier arrivals from Ireland.

I wonder if he has any notion of the incredibly disproportionate way Ireland is represented in genetic genealogy databases. Today Ireland is up to 11,426 in FTDNA's Ancestral Origins database. Add to that the 578 who list Northern Ireland as ancestral place of origin and that figure is 12,004.

Compare that to the mere 2,771 for France, even though the population of France is at least 12 times that of Ireland.
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rms2
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« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2009, 03:56:59 PM »

By the way, I'm guessing the German scientists doing the dna testing of the TRB remains won't go as far up the y-dna tree as to test for L21. Even if they did, I'm guessing those bones are too old for any of them to be L21+.

They could get some L23+ or L51+, maybe even some P310+, though, if they test for those.

Actually my guess is that if they get any y-dna, it will be some kind haplogroup I stuff.
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Jdean
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« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2009, 04:11:59 PM »

By the way, I'm guessing the German scientists doing the dna testing of the TRB remains won't go as far up the y-dna tree as to test for L21. Even if they did, I'm guessing those bones are too old for any of them to be L21+.

They could get some L23+ or L51+, maybe even some P310+, though, if they test for those.

Actually my guess is that if they get any y-dna, it will be some kind haplogroup I stuff.

Just looked at your original message, and noticed the dates quoted were BC, so yes I suppose your right, the heavyweight age estimators are slugging it out on DNA mailing list at the moment, way over my head but I enjoy reading there posts.
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rms2
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« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2009, 04:20:37 PM »

Just looked at your original message, and noticed the dates quoted were BC, so yes I suppose your right, the heavyweight age estimators are slugging it out on DNA mailing list at the moment, way over my head but I enjoy reading there posts.

I think the guys who really have some kind of clue about what they are doing agree about using observed, father-to-son mutation rates to calculate age estimates.

There are a couple of guys arguing on Rootsweb who don't really know what they are talking about. They seem to rely on studies from several years ago and claim that there is some kind of expert consensus for the older age estimates.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 04:21:58 PM by rms2 » Logged

Mark Jost
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« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2009, 06:03:19 PM »

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2009-12/1260673571

Quote
From the European Genetics and Anthropology Blog:

"Germans test Funnelbeaker (TRB) Culture aDNA

.... They come from 3400-3000BC burial sites at
Panker, eastern Schleswig-Holstein, Großenrode and Odagsen, southern
Lower Saxony, and Calden, North Hessen. All of those places are in
North-Central Germany. The scientists not only hope to determine the
biogeographic origins of the samples, but also their pigmentation
traits, by looking at SNPs associated with hair, skin and eye color.
Verwandtschaft,


Is this anything to be concerned about as in 'confirming a specific race existed then'?
« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 06:04:28 PM by mjost » Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
OConnor
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« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2009, 06:22:12 PM »

simply put..I want to know who the ancient people were in Europe.
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Mark Jost
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« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2009, 06:31:03 PM »

I agree and want the same thing. But do they think specific traits will be much different over a few thousand years? It like they are specifically looking for confirmation.

But I guess we will find out if there really was a Rhine defined separation of major Haplogroups.
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2009, 06:59:25 PM »

TRB is the culture of the earliest farmers along the north Sea coast areas of Germany, Denmark etc.   If this study does what it is apparently claiming, it could easily be repeated everywhere across Europe.   If that happens then we will very soon have the big answers and all this guessing will be over.  
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OConnor
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« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2009, 07:48:26 PM »

The trouble with dna is.. when you answer one question you raise a lot more.
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Jean M
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« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2009, 08:15:23 PM »

I see that no-one is reading my blog over at DNA Forums. I broke this story on 4 December over there, but no-one noticed until Polako took up the tale yesterday. <wry grin>

The TRB is different from the Neolithic over the rest of Europe. It shows influences from the Balkans or even the steppe. I ended up listing it under Copper Age in my list of aDNA results already published.

So I  don't think that aDNA from the TRB should be taken as a proxy for the LBK or Cardial Ware people. We need evidence in each case. However the ancient mtDNA that we have so far from the TRB does include hgs J and T, predicted to be Neolithic incomers. We would just like to know Y-DNA if it can be extracted.   
« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 08:26:03 PM by Jean M » Logged
Mark Jost
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« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2009, 08:27:12 PM »

I see that no-one is reading my blog over at DNA Forums. I broke this story on 4 December over there, but no-one noticed until Polako took up the tale yesterday. <wry grin>

The TRB is different from the Neolithic over the rest of Europe. It shows influences from the Balkans or even the steppe. I ended up listing it under Copper Age in my list of aDNA results already published.

I was reading
http://www.comp-archaeology.org/04Social%20OrganizationTRB.htm

and it was remarked that individual traders transported their goods in person from the Czech-Slovak area all the way to Sweden as well.
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2009, 01:12:17 PM »

TRB is the culture of the earliest farmers along the north Sea coast areas of Germany, Denmark etc.   If this study does what it is apparently claiming, it could easily be repeated everywhere across Europe.   If that happens then we will very soon have the big answers and all this guessing will be over.  
Does anyone think we should expect some R1a1 in the findings?
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
Jean M
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« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2009, 04:46:53 PM »

I don't know what to expect.  What Y-DNA comes up may depend on the site and the date.

The crucial point is climate. Around 4000 BC a climate change made farming feasible further north. In fact some farmers may have been driven north. Paradoxically this was an era of global cooling. At such times the prevailing winds shift from latitudinal (east and west) to meridional (north and south). Southerly winds brought drier conditions and warmer summers to the British Isles and south-western Scandinavia, areas temperate for their latitude due to the North Atlantic Drift. Farmers from what is now France spread swiftly into and across the British Isles. The Funnel Beaker Culture arose in Scandinavia and the Baltic Sea basin at the same time.

Where had the farmers of the TRB come from? The LBK failed to thrive in the long term. At least in Germany and Poland signs of human activity fall dramatically around 4,700 BC, remaining low for over a millennium. So we need to look further afield for the farmers of the TRB. Max Baldia looks towards the Lengyel culture of eastern and southeastern Europe, while noting Balkan/Danubian connections.

It was around 4000 BC that the massive Balkan tell towns were abandoned, probably due to said climate change. Some farmers may have fled north to escape drought. Meanwhile some steppe herders moved into the Danube valley about 4,200 BC. One group moved into the Transylvanian plateau and then down the Mureş river valley into eastern Hungary.

The clues to TRB contact with the Balkans and steppe are Balkan copper objects, plus ploughs and wagons. The latter presumably don't date to before about 3500 BC. That suggests some trading up the Danube.      

mjost linked above to Max Baldia's very useful site. (Which seems to have just expired. Fortunately Google has it cached. Get it while you can.) Baldia sees the TRB as more of an "interaction zone" than a unified culture. He casts his net very widely in describing the extent of said zone.
  
« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 04:56:35 PM by Jean M » Logged
vtilroe
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« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2009, 03:19:18 AM »

I doubt they'd find P312 or U106, even if they do look for them, simply because of the age - 3400-3000BC (5400-5000 ybp) may simply be too early, and I even have doubts they'd find M343 or M269 - those may have not made it that far north at that time.  I do hope they do test for all of those, though.
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