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argiedude
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« Reply #25 on: November 04, 2009, 08:25:28 PM »

Stevo, when you said that half of French samples that tested for L21 came back L21+, how exactly did you mean this? Do you mean half of all R1b1b2 samples, or half of P312+ samples? And while we're at it, what's the rate (roughly) for places like Germany, England, and Ireland? And Scandinavia?
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2009, 08:49:57 PM »

Stevo, when you said that half of French samples that tested for L21 came back L21+, how exactly did you mean this? Do you mean half of all R1b1b2 samples, or half of P312+ samples? And while we're at it, what's the rate (roughly) for places like Germany, England, and Ireland? And Scandinavia?

I understand that it was by necessity rather than design a near-blind R1b1b2 sample that was tested for L21.  It was near-blind but geographically the sample was undoubtedly skewed, again not by design.  Nevertheless, the general hit rate was very high and the blind nature of the sampling makes it a lot more valid than simply doing a clade count on public databases. 

As for other countries, I dont think anything similar has ever been carried out along the lines of blind testing.  This means that only comparison of the public databases or projects can help.  However, bear in mind that L21 is being majorly underepresented.  I have suggested before that some sort of adjustment percentage for L21 could be based on the totals who took deep clade testing before and after L21. 

France was singled out for some testing simply because few test there voluntarily and there has long been a suspicion that it might be high in L21.  Clearly, there has not been anywhere near enough testing in France to get the fine grain pattern and many areas are grossly undersampled.  I still believe that no modern nation in mainland Europe will come close to the French for L21.
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rms2
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« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2009, 04:11:26 PM »

Stevo, when you said that half of French samples that tested for L21 came back L21+, how exactly did you mean this? Do you mean half of all R1b1b2 samples, or half of P312+ samples? And while we're at it, what's the rate (roughly) for places like Germany, England, and Ireland? And Scandinavia?

Alan is right. Originally my intent was to find P312+ guys who had not yet been tested for L21. I was unable to get any of those, so I recruited anyone who was R1b1b2 (predicted or tested to R-M269). Most did not have 67-marker haplotypes (I'm not sure any of them did, actually). If I would have spotted a 492=13, I would have excluded that person, but that issue did not come up. So, as Alan said, it was a nearly blind test of R1b1b2 volunteers with y-dna heritage in France.

And thus far at least half of them have been L21+. That proportion would actually be closer to 60% in Northern France.

I need to put together the figures, but my original intent was not some kind of scientific sampling, so I didn't keep track of things that way. I will have to go back through posts I made here and through some of my emails to come up with names and numbers, but I know what I am saying is true. The results in France have been startling.

Getting those other figures (England, Germany, etc.) would be nearly impossible, since we didn't have anything to do with testing those folks.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 04:22:02 PM by rms2 » Logged

alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2009, 05:17:18 PM »

I would also add that a hit rate as high as L21 in France makes testing there much less painful in terms of result for your dollar than most other places.  It is unlikely to be that painless in other countires where the hit rate for L21 in an R1b1b2 blind test would likely be far worse and fund guzzling.

Another interesting point is that this 1-in-2 hit rate is much greater than you would anticipate from the public databases.  This gives you some idea of how underrepresented L21 is due to its late discovery.  Actually its just occurred to me that there may be the basis of a forumula here.  Compare this 50% hit rate with the proportion of L21 (of R1b1b2) that public databases indicate in France.    I think Argiedude maybe has a percentage. What do you have to multiply the public database percentage by to make it up to 50%. 
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argiedude
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« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2009, 06:32:42 PM »

One thing that's been done right is SRY2627. There are several well done studies since 1999 that included SRY2627, and they have a lot of results from France, since it was known from the start that it's mainly found in the Basques. I've found the following studies, perhaps someone might be able to find one or two more that I missed:

Scozzari, 2001
France 3 SRY2627 out of 43 P(xR1a)

Rosser, 2000
France 2 SRY2627 out of 20 P(xR1a)

Hurles, 1999
Béarnais (France) 1 SRY2627 out of 13 y-dna
France 1 SRY2627 out of 33 y-dna

This works out to 7 SRY2627 samples found in a total of about 80 R1b1b2 samples, or 9% of R1b1b2.

Now we can do the following. I presume U152, U106, and SRY2627 have a similar time of existence in FTDNA's tests. And I already mentioned that I counted all the SNP-tested samples from France listed in the various projects or in ysearch. We can gauge the presence of U152 and U106 by comparing their presence with SRY2627, for which geneticists have done a proper survey. Here are the sample counts I made:

SRY2627.....12
U152..........14
U106..........14

Using the '9% of R1b1b2' conclusion from the scientific studies, we can now extrapolate that U152 is about = (14 / 12) x 9% = 10% of R1b1b2. And U106 is also about 10% of R1b1b2. Always in France, of course.

This leaves 70% of R1b1b2 as M269(xSRY2627,U152,U106). I'd exclude another 3% to account for ht35 and M153, so we have 67% of R1b1b2 is either L21+ or P312*.

Now things get very shaky. I counted the following samples in the projects and ysearch:
L21..............8
P312*..........8

I don't know if P312* truly means negative for all major SNPs including L21. I think I counted P312* samples as those that were labeled R1b1b2a1b (in green), but that's really very unreliable, I think I saw some of these R1b1b2a1b that were obviously M222. My feeling is that most of the 67% L21/P312* belongs to L21. France might have 50% L21, as a percentage of its R1b1b2 (or 30% of its y-dna).

But even if we are conservative, L21 would still make up 30% of R1b1b2, roughly equal to all of SRY2627, U152, and U106 combined.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2009, 07:33:14 PM »

Interesting. Sounds like he comes down on the side of extensive Scandinavian settlement in Normandy, especially in the West.

When I was communicating with Turpin, who is of Norman descent, belongs to the R-L21 Plus Project but who has not yet joined the Normandy Y-DNA Project, I found out that his surname is supposed to have been derived originally with the viking given name Thorfinn.
.....
I started diving a little deeper into Ann Stansbarger's 11-13 Combo Group since I'm in it.   Of course, Turpin is in that group where 406s1>=11 617>=13.  617 is quite slow and 406s1 is medium mutating, still it's only two markers.  14% of R-L21*  are 617>=13. Meanwhile, 16% of R-L21* are 406s1>=11, but the intersection is pretty strong.  67% of the 617>=13 also have 406s1>=11.

Anyway, I knew there were some claims or at least folklore of Norman ancestry amongst the group including the Vance/Vaux, Ross/Rose and Massey/Massie families. 

I don't know about all of that, but I am surprised by the diversity of the geographies I came up with for MDKA's:  England, France (Normandy), Germany, Ireland, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, Scotland, Sweden and Wales. The largest concentrations are in Leinster and Wales, of course this just could be the nature of participation in testing.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #31 on: November 28, 2009, 03:52:22 PM »

Someone from Quebec has noted on another forum that he is eligible to join the Normandy project, but that he didn't test with FTDNA. Incidentally he is L21. If he were to join, that would boost the L21 portion in the project to 8 of 16, or exactly 50%.
I will say that a number of people on another forum have tended to disparage the Normandy project's results, but I suspect that may be due to the fact that their HG or subclade hasn't yet appeared in the results.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2009, 04:59:40 PM »

I think once you have a number like 16 tested, you get 50% of all people proving to be L21 and you also consider that L21 has only been available for a limited amount of time compared to the other clade defining SNPs etc, then we are looking at an absolute majority in Normandy, something only considered to be approached in Ireland and perhaps neighbouring Irish Sea/Atlantic British areas.  

Now I personally do not consider Normans in France as generaly being of Viking ancestry.  I know it is considered that the bulk of the invading Vikings there were Danish or Danish descended vikings.  Clearly there is simply no comparison between the amount of L21 in Normandy and in Denmark where even if it is hiding to a degree I dont think it can be much more than 10% of the population.  

Normandy falls in line with the very high L21 in the entire NW Quadrant of France and it seems likely to me that there is an ancient prehistoric high baseline L21 count in that whole quadrant of France.  The various regions of NW France have very different histories in terms of the dominant cultures imposed by elites (British, Latin, Frankish, Suevic, Norse etc) in the post-Roman times but they all share the common denominator of very high L21.

I think that shows the core ordinary population below the diverse elites was high in L21 from prehistoric times in the NW quadrant of France and probably a wider area of France where testing has simply been impossile to procure. Wherever L21 is tested in France in any sort of numbers it proves very common.  I dont think we can yet point to an area where testing has been reasonable and L21 has not proved common.  There may well be areas like that (I suspect the south-west, the Med. coast and extreme NE) but this remains to be demonstrated.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2009, 05:14:14 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2009, 08:59:45 AM »

I agree with you, Alan. I think R-L21* in Normandy probably stems from the basic Gallo-Roman population, although it is possible a stray Norwegian or Danish line could be L21, as well.

I think some folks might be upset with the Normandy Y-DNA Project (with me, that is) because I have been pretty strict about its membership and thus have rejected quite a few people. To join, one has to be able to actually trace his y-dna line to Normandy or the Channel Islands. Few people of British Isles descent who THINK they might be Norman can do that.

I can't, so I myself am not a member of my own project.

I have to be strict about membership or the Normandy Y-DNA Project will cease to be of any use and will simply degenerate into some sort of feel-good, mutual admiration society with no real genetic connection to any real place.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 09:00:11 AM by rms2 » Logged

Mike Walsh
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« Reply #34 on: December 14, 2009, 02:30:08 PM »

....
I think some folks might be upset with the Normandy Y-DNA Project (with me, that is) because I have been pretty strict about its membership and thus have rejected quite a few people. To join, one has to be able to actually trace his y-dna line to Normandy or the Channel Islands. Few people of British Isles descent who THINK they might be Norman can do that.
....
O brother!  Check line 43 of the Welch surname project.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Welch/
I've got "William the Conqueror" in my project.  He is predicted R1b1b2.

One must have a sense of humour, I guess.
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Jdean
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« Reply #35 on: December 14, 2009, 02:49:49 PM »

....
I think some folks might be upset with the Normandy Y-DNA Project (with me, that is) because I have been pretty strict about its membership and thus have rejected quite a few people. To join, one has to be able to actually trace his y-dna line to Normandy or the Channel Islands. Few people of British Isles descent who THINK they might be Norman can do that.
....
O brother!  Check line 43 of the Welch surname project.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Welch/
I've got "William the Conqueror" in my project.  He is predicted R1b1b2.

One must have a sense of humour, I guess.

Well as a proven descendant of King Harold

http://www.tqsi.com/stedman/nameorigin.html

I challenge this chap to a duel ;)
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rms2
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« Reply #36 on: December 14, 2009, 04:27:27 PM »

I have had the somewhat onerous task of rejecting a number of requests for membership in the Normandy Y-DNA Project because they were based on claims of Norman descent that leap over centuries of unknown and unnamed ancestors to name one who supposedly rode with the Conqueror.

I'm not saying those claims are not right; they may be, but there is no way to know with any reasonable certainty.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #37 on: December 14, 2009, 04:27:47 PM »

....
I think some folks might be upset with the Normandy Y-DNA Project (with me, that is) because I have been pretty strict about its membership and thus have rejected quite a few people. To join, one has to be able to actually trace his y-dna line to Normandy or the Channel Islands. Few people of British Isles descent who THINK they might be Norman can do that.
....
O brother!  Check line 43 of the Welch surname project.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Welch/
I've got "William the Conqueror" in my project.  He is predicted R1b1b2.

One must have a sense of humour, I guess.
I never even knew William the Conqueror was Welsh!
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Jdean
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« Reply #38 on: December 14, 2009, 05:00:41 PM »

I have had the somewhat onerous task of rejecting a number of requests for membership in the Normandy Y-DNA Project because they were based on claims of Norman descent that leap over centuries of unknown and unnamed ancestors to name one who supposedly rode with the Conqueror.

I'm not saying those claims are not right; they may be, but there is no way to know with any reasonable certainty.

Unfortunately once you get passed the parish records, mid 16th to mid 17th C. depending on the parish, reliable evidence tends to get a little thin. Of course there are the visitations and Welsh trees if your lucky enough to be able to connect to one of them but I've always figured that these are probably only good for a few generations, personally I didn't need to do any research to know who my gg grandfather was but finding out the identity of my ggg grandfather required looking through records, yet many of these trees went back over centuries.
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rms2
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« Reply #39 on: December 15, 2009, 09:15:35 PM »

Another one of our Normandy Project guys went L21+ this evening: St. Jacques, Ysearch C8Y7Y. His ancestor came from Le Rocher, Manche, in Basse-Normandie.

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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2009, 10:51:12 AM »

....
I think some folks might be upset with the Normandy Y-DNA Project (with me, that is) because I have been pretty strict about its membership and thus have rejected quite a few people. To join, one has to be able to actually trace his y-dna line to Normandy or the Channel Islands. Few people of British Isles descent who THINK they might be Norman can do that.
....
O brother!  Check line 43 of the Welch surname project.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Welch/
I've got "William the Conqueror" in my project.  He is predicted R1b1b2.

One must have a sense of humour, I guess.
I never even knew William the Conqueror was Welsh!
The MDKA claim is wild or just plain humour (which is probably what it is), but I will have to say it is within realm of possibility.  Many of the Normans in Wales official male lineages died out but the Norman Marcher Lords definitely had illegitimate children that could still have descendants today.

The leader of the Cambro-Norman Invasion of Ireland - Richard de Clare (Strongbow)
Quote
He was the son of Gilbert "Crispin", Count of Brionne, grandson of Richard I of Normandy. In spite of this, sources as far back as the Annals of the Four Masters claim that Richard's great-grandson, Richard "Strongbow", was the direct descendant of Robert "the Devil", father of William the Conqueror.
King Henry's son (a direct descendant of William) - Meiler Fitz Henry
Quote
The son of Henry, the illegitimate son of Henry I by Nesta, daughter of Rhys ap Tewdwr, king of south Wales, and thus a first cousin of Henry II. He was also related to prominent Cambro‐Normans, including Robert fitz Stephen and Maurice fitzGerald, his uncles, and Raymond le Gros and Gerald of Wales, who were his cousins.
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