World Families Forums - Sir Osbern le Gardynyr, the Knight R1b1b2 DNA

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Author Topic: Sir Osbern le Gardynyr, the Knight R1b1b2 DNA  (Read 5178 times)
OConnor
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« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2009, 10:01:04 PM »

according to http://www.gardener.net.au/genealogy/

Sir Osborn GARDINER, Knight, Lord of the Manor of Oral on Douglas River in Wigan Parish, West Derby Hundred, was one of the most prominent members of the Lancaster branch of the family.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

This is some kind of family tree. I'm not saying it's correct.

http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/t/h/e/Tammy-S-Theilen-CA/PDFBOOK1.pdf


Where does the dna come in?
« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 10:22:54 PM by OConnor » Logged

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M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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gunslingingardner
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« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2009, 10:41:49 PM »

The Sir Osbern Gardner I am talking about who was Lord of the Manor of Oral on the Douglas River, was the English knight, not the French one.

I know it sounds confusing.

Sir Osbern Gardner (1029 - 1100) the Norman French knight.

Sir Osbern Gardner (1135 - 1200) the Medieval knight who was Lord of the Manor.

My evidence is that I descended from Sir Osbern Gardner, looking at the migrations of my ancestors. It is possible that those who came from the Clan Jardine, later became Gardine, De Gardinis, Gardiner, and so on. These men were descendants of William du Jardin, a Norman French knight who was granted land in Scotland, but a lot of men just took the name Jardine, or Gardine later on. It's very likely my Gardners came from this clan because they considered themselves Scots and Sir Osbern Gardner lived in Lancashire, England, or whatever it was called at the time as Goldenhind pointed out.

Goldenhind:

Do you have a knowledge of the Norman French language?

Would you happen to know different meanings of the Old Norman French word 'gardinier'?

I've been looking for a linguist to help me with this and since you seem interested, I'd like to find out as much as I can about the history of the surname.
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gunslingingardner
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« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2009, 02:43:11 PM »

Sir Osbern Gardiner was Lord of the Manor of Lancashire, England along the Douglas River in Wigan Parish, back in the 12th Century. This is probably why my Gardners always considered themselves Scots. They were basically Scots instead of English, but in reality they were Norman French.

Look it on google or something. You won't find much to be honest. You will find that Sir Osbern Gardner was Lord of the Manor but that's really about it on the net.






There were two Sir Osbern Gardners.

The first Sir Osbern Gardner was the Norman knight who invaded into England during the Norman Conquest. Another Gardner who has done research will hopefully send the document to me this month. This guy has gone back so far all of the records are written French. I believe he looked at the Domesday book, I personally haven't with my own eyes.

The second Sir Osbern Gardner, probably the grandson or great grandson of the first,  lived from (1125 - 1200) during the time of Richard the Lionheart.

This Sir Osbern Gardner was born abt. 1128 and was Lord of the Manor of Lancashire, England. There is documentation that Osbern Gardner was the protector of the King of Jeruselam. He fought in the Second Crusades and in 1191 Gardner killed a Saracen who was bearing down on King Richard I, the Lionheart.


Does anyone know the various meaning of the Norman French word 'gardinier?

Look, I am not claiming your two Sir Osberns did not exist or that you are making this up. I would not be surprised however if whomever originally came up with this information may have got carried away by his enthusiam in the claims he makes.
Lancashire is a county in England, not the name of a manor. However it did not yet exist as such at the time of the Norman Conquest or Domesday. Most of it was referred to as the Land Between the Ribble and Mersey. Wigan is not even mentioned in it. Nor is there any Osbern who held any manor in that area.
I happen to have a copy of  the Domesday Survey which includes those lands which later became Lancashire.

Look, I know it is your God given right to try and prove me wrong, but what your doing is misunderstanding me.

Sir Osbern Gardner was the Lord of the Manor of Oral, located in Lancashire, England, or whatever it was called back in the day. This knight lived back during the Second Crusades. He was listed as O Gardyner in some old book as the Personal Protector of King Baldwin II during the Crusades.

I don't really have time to prove myself when I didn't ask anyone to question what I wrote.

Does anyone have a knowledge of the Norman French language?

If so, I'd like to discuss it.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2009, 03:29:45 PM »

.....  Does anyone have a knowledge of the Norman French language?  If so, I'd like to discuss it.
I don't.  I doubt if many people on this forum would.  There might be better forums for discussions on specifics linguistics issues.
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Jdean
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« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2009, 04:05:44 PM »


Does anyone have a knowledge of the Norman French language?

If so, I'd like to discuss it.

As Mike said there are probably forums more specific to your question, this is really about haplogroups, and doesn’t even concern itself with genealogy that much.

I can't make claims to skills in linguistics, in fact quit the reverse I struggled dismally at them in school, however I can quote the etymology of Gardener from the OED

Old French gardin (French jardin); from Germanic; yard and garth

Wikipedia has this to say on Old French

Old French was the Romance dialect continuum spoken in territories which span roughly the northern half of modern France and parts of modern Belgium and Switzerland from around 900 to 1300. It was then known as the langue d'oïl (oïl language) to distinguish it from the langue d'oc (Occitan language, also then called Provençal), whose territory bordered that of Old French to the south.

French was the language of the invading Normans and hence English government for quite some time after 1066 so I would imagine this would have been the version they spoke.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 04:07:40 PM by Jdean » Logged

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gunslingingardner
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« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2009, 04:39:39 PM »

Thanks guys,

One thing about this site is that since we are R1b1b2 we are all related, strange isn't it?

Strange how almost every man in Europe descended from one man.

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Jdean
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« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2009, 07:54:15 PM »

Thanks guys,

One thing about this site is that since we are R1b1b2 we are all related, strange isn't it?

Strange how almost every man in Europe descended from one man.



Indeed, but the real question is where he came from and how long ago he lived, the latter issue being fiercely debated on the Genealogy-DNA mailing list at the moment
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2009, 08:22:49 PM »

Goldenhind:

Do you have a knowledge of the Norman French language?

Would you happen to know different meanings of the Old Norman French word 'gardinier'?

I've been looking for a linguist to help me with this and since you seem interested, I'd like to find out as much as I can about the history of the surname.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2009, 08:36:33 PM »

Goldenhind:

Do you have a knowledge of the Norman French language?

Would you happen to know different meanings of the Old Norman French word 'gardinier'?

I've been looking for a linguist to help me with this and since you seem interested, I'd like to find out as much as I can about the history of the surname.
No, my field is history, not linguistics. I know there are experts who will translate documents from Norman French for a fee. But I believe it is similar enough to modern French that a person fluent in that language can generally read it.
I am interested in names and can tell you what the Oxford Dictionary of English Surnames (3rd rev. ed.), which unlike many others on the subject is generally reliable, says about your surname:
from *gardinier corresponding to Old French and modern French jardinier: 'gardener'.
It also gives several examples of early instances of the surname: Anger gardiner 1166 in Lincolnshire, William le gardinier 1199 and 1201 in Rutland and Walter le gardiner 1202 in London, a fruiterer.
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gunslingingardner
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« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2009, 11:15:51 PM »

Yeah, I've read most of that on the internet.

They give you the names on House of Names website.

The Old Norman French word 'gardinier' does mean gardener, mixed with Norse and French from 'gard' meaning enclosed land, while 'jardinier' means gardener.

However, an Old Norman French linguist once told me that 'gardinier' has more than one meaning.

The Gardners, the original ones anyway, whatever there name means, seem to be mixed with Norse and French ancestry. Names like Osbern and Anger are definitley Norse.

I've found the following possibilities of where my surname derived:

Old Norse:
'gard' or 'garor' means 'enclosed piece of land' or 'stronghold', and Gardar is a personal name.

Old Norman French:
'gardinier' means gardener, or it can mean something else (still trying to get answers).
'gardein' means a soldier who stands guard (this was also pronounced 'gardeen' like the name Jardine at one time).

Old Irish:
'garde' means to watch

Old Gaelic Scotch:
'gairden' means fortress

Old English:
'gar' means weapon, javelin, dart, or spear
'dyn' means sound or noise or alarm
'er' means termination.

GAR DYN YR, the original spelling, GARDYNYR, then GARDNER.
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