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Author Topic: To order the R-L21* new SNP package or just do a singleton order?  (Read 1446 times)
Mike Walsh
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« on: December 01, 2009, 09:55:36 PM »

I'm thinking I should test myself out for L193, one of the new SNP's that have been discovered downstream of L21+, parallel to M222+.

I'm a 406s1=11 617=13 guy, what Ann S. calls the 11-13 Combo group.  It is most known for a contingent called the Ros-Mascy Clan, but there is also good sized groups of Elliott/Kelly's, Vance/Vaus/Ferguson/McLean's, Mckenzie/MacKenzie's, McGuire/Maguire's and some related Meek/Kennedy people.   Almost forgot, we have section that seems to be connected with the Cambro-Normans (Welsh-Normans.)  The Vance/Vaus and Ros and Mascy people may have connections to Normans as well.  I'm not saying any or all are Normans, just they seem to be attached to Norman expansions and migrations (or folklore.)

To show our diversity: Ammerlan of the Netherlands, Turpin of Normandy, Steinsland of Norway, Sonneson of Sweden, Conrardy of Belgium, Müller of Bavaria also fit into 11-13 Combo group.

Of course, no one can say that 11-13 has a common ancestor recently.  Our TMRCA is 500 BC, but for sure there are a couple of significant clades under the banner of 11-13.  
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L21-1113Combo/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/1113Combo/

Back to the new SNP's...

A Massey came out of WTY with no new SNP's, but he may not have been tested for all of the new ones as the primers were changed.

A Meek and Kennedy have L193+.  No one in the 11-13 group that I know of is L193-.  

The only three known L193+ people, period, that I can find are the two known 11-13 guys, Meek and Kennedy, and a 12 marker Newton.  So, I think should figure out if I'm L193 for $29.
 
However, for $119, I can get all of the new SNP's tested.  They include: L130
L144  L159.2  L192  L193  L195  L226  L96

L159.2 seems to be a subset of the 464x 2c2g Leinster group and I don't really fit that modal and I'm 3c1g so I think that one will be negative for me.

L226+ seems to be strongly Irish Type III and I don't fit that so I think that will be negative.

The WTY 11-13 Massey says he is L159.2- and L226- so that pretty much gives them both strike two for me.

I don't hear much about L130, L144, L192, L195, L96.  Are they worth testing for? If I thought so, I'd do the package versus a L193 singleton.

The other question, is are all the R-L21* WTY guys through the WTY pipe yet?  If I wait, is there much of a chance that more SNP's will turn that would be included in the "package" deal?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 11:57:33 PM by Mike » Logged

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Jdean
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« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2009, 05:44:30 AM »

Looking through Finch I can't find a test for the L193 region in the Massey sample, so I would say nobody in that cluster has tested negative yet.

There are three more L21 kits to come in

MacMartin Superfamily

Caldwell/Taylor Superfamily

Scot's Brother


At the moment there have been three finds out of eight, so there is a reasonable chance of something else turning up.

How long we may have to wait is another question though.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2009, 05:57:05 AM by Jdean » Logged

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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2009, 10:36:09 AM »

Looking through Finch I can't find a test for the L193 region in the Massey sample, so I would say nobody in that cluster has tested negative yet.

There are three more L21 kits to come in
MacMartin Superfamily
Caldwell/Taylor Superfamily
Scot's Brother

At the moment there have been three finds out of eight, so there is a reasonable chance of something else turning up.
How long we may have to wait is another question though.
Jdean, can you check again? or show me the instructions for looking at Finch?  I'm not familiar with it at all.

I received a note from a Project Admin that Massey's (11-13 Combo Ros-Mascy group) results were updated it looks like Massey was L193-.   I didn't get a feel of 100% certainty of that result though.

The whole status of progress on WTY testing for R-L21* poses a question.  I think I'd like to order the L21* downstream SNP package for $119 but I don't really expect any hits, particularly since Massey now appears to be L193-.  So the question is, should I wait for the remaing WTY results to see if FTDNA adds any more downstream SNP's?  Any thoughts?
« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 10:37:37 AM by Mike » Logged

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Jdean
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« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2009, 12:08:29 PM »

Mike

Do you have access to Finch, if so I'll do my best, but to be honest I find it the strangest place to hunt around in.

Anyway click Chromats on the left

search for GRC017251_WTY_L15L23L76L79_C17

this will bring up the forward and reverse (no idea what that really means) sequences for the Massey participant

Click Blast, this will forward you to the Requests section

After that you will have to refresh the page (usually only once) until a Y turns up under Hits, when that happens click the Y and you will see the sequence compared against the control sample.

In this case L193 is defined a G to A mutation and the sample shows G the same as the test sample which is also L193-.

For the most part the biggest problem is finding which sequence contains the mutation your looking for, I spent a while trying to find it last time and failed, so I'm quite relieved that you received information that they re-ran this test, however I can't deny the possibility that I overlooked it, as I said I find Finch a rather odd place.

BTW if anybody has any helpful hints on using Finch I all ears.

Dave
« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 12:29:16 PM by Jdean » Logged

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Jdean
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« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2009, 12:25:47 PM »

The whole status of progress on WTY testing for R-L21* poses a question.  I think I'd like to order the L21* downstream SNP package for $119 but I don't really expect any hits, particularly since Massey now appears to be L193-.  So the question is, should I wait for the remaing WTY results to see if FTDNA adds any more downstream SNP's?  Any thoughts?

I don't think any of the remaining people have a close GD from yourself, so most likely anything that may turn up in these you will be negative for you anyway. On the other hand what we are all hoping for is another L21 like mutation, and this unlikely find could turn up in any kit, so it's up to you really though I can't believe WTY can run for much longer
« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 02:21:48 PM by Jdean » Logged

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NealtheRed
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« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2009, 02:58:47 PM »

I'm thinking I should test myself out for L193, one of the new SNP's that have been discovered downstream of L21+, parallel to M222+.

I'm a 406s1=11 617=13 guy, what Ann S. calls the 11-13 Combo group.  It is most known for a contingent called the Ros-Mascy Clan, but there is also good sized groups of Elliott/Kelly's, Vance/Vaus/Ferguson/McLean's, Mckenzie/MacKenzie's, McGuire/Maguire's and some related Meek/Kennedy people.   Almost forgot, we have section that seems to be connected with the Cambro-Normans (Welsh-Normans.)  The Vance/Vaus and Ros and Mascy people may have connections to Normans as well.  I'm not saying any or all are Normans, just they seem to be attached to Norman expansions and migrations (or folklore.)

To show our diversity: Ammerlan of the Netherlands, Turpin of Normandy, Steinsland of Norway, Sonneson of Sweden, Conrardy of Belgium, Müller of Bavaria also fit into 11-13 Combo group.

Of course, no one can say that 11-13 has a common ancestor recently.  Our TMRCA is 500 BC, but for sure there are a couple of significant clades under the banner of 11-13.  
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L21-1113Combo/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/1113Combo/

Back to the new SNP's...

A Massey came out of WTY with no new SNP's, but he may not have been tested for all of the new ones as the primers were changed.

A Meek and Kennedy have L193+.  No one in the 11-13 group that I know of is L193-.  

The only three known L193+ people, period, that I can find are the two known 11-13 guys, Meek and Kennedy, and a 12 marker Newton.  So, I think should figure out if I'm L193 for $29.
 
However, for $119, I can get all of the new SNP's tested.  They include: L130
L144  L159.2  L192  L193  L195  L226  L96

L159.2 seems to be a subset of the 464x 2c2g Leinster group and I don't really fit that modal and I'm 3c1g so I think that one will be negative for me.

L226+ seems to be strongly Irish Type III and I don't fit that so I think that will be negative.

The WTY 11-13 Massey says he is L159.2- and L226- so that pretty much gives them both strike two for me.

I don't hear much about L130, L144, L192, L195, L96.  Are they worth testing for? If I thought so, I'd do the package versus a L193 singleton.

The other question, is are all the R-L21* WTY guys through the WTY pipe yet?  If I wait, is there much of a chance that more SNP's will turn that would be included in the "package" deal?


Nice work. I should point out that some guys in your group are a part of the Leinster cluster (at least two Fergusons), or match the Irish Sea modal closely.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


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OConnor
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« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2009, 06:16:35 PM »

I went for the whole bucket. I'd hate to tick them off one at a time.
It just so happens i turned out L159.2+
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2009, 06:36:15 PM »

I'm thinking I should test myself out for L193, one of the new SNP's that have been discovered downstream of L21+, parallel to M222+.

I'm a 406s1=11 617=13 guy, what Ann S. calls the 11-13 Combo group....
A Massey came out of WTY with no new SNP's, but he may not have been tested for all of the new ones as the primers were changed.
....
Nice work. I should point out that some guys in your group are a part of the Leinster cluster (at least two Fergusons), or match the Irish Sea modal closely.
Nealthered,

I was told once that I might fit in the Leinster/Irish Seal modal and although I didn't understand the fit, I figured "what the heck, the one thing I can prove is my lineage is from Leinster."  So I ordered 464x and came back 3c1g which doesn't fit with what probably is the true clade with a lot of 2c2g in it.

I should have done this earlier, but I'll do a direct comparison of 11-13 and the Irish Sea modal  Hopefully I'm using the right modal to compare with - B9NW4. It looks correct. Here are it's off-modals:

Leinster/Irish Sea has 389i=14. 36th slowest marker out of 67. About 15% of R-L21* cfm'd folks have it. Only about 10% of the 11-13 folks have 389i=14, mostly the Ross/Rose folks and my little Welsh/Swedish cluster.

Leinster/Irish Sea has 448=18. It is 33rd slowest.  15% of R-L21* have it.  Only about 8% of 11-13 match it - Donohoe, McCown, McGuire and but they are 389i=13 rather than 14.

Leinster/Irish Sea has 456=15. It is 60th slowest and is fast enough I'm not sure it is that worthwhile.  15 is nearly modal for L-21 at 36%.  About 27% of 11-13 have 15.

Leinster/Irish Sea has 444=11. It is 49th. 18% of R-L21* have it. Only about one 11-13 has 11, Donohoe.

Leinster/Irish Sea has 446=14. It is 51st. 23% of R-L21* have it. 24% of 11-13 has it, mostly The Ross/Rose/Massey/Stevens folks.

Leinster/Irish Sea has 557=15. It is 48th. 23% of R-L21* have it. About 26% of 11-13 have it, mostly the Ross/Rose/Massey but also McConnell, Bussey and a couple more.

Leinster/Irish Sea has 534=16. It is 63rd slowest. 24% of R-L21* have it. Only about 15% of 11-13 have it, i.e. Gamble/Gammel/Kelly and Donohoe again.

CDYa/b is high for both Leinster/Irish Sea and 11-13 as it is for most R-L21*. Of course, these are the fastest mutators.

My conclusion is that Donohoe and the Ross-Mascy clan might be early branch off of Irish Sea/Leinster, but I doubt it.. .at least Ross-Mascy probably isn't.  
A Massey has already test L159.2-.  The other three 11-13's who tested for L59.2 are also negative.  

I don't think there is much of a relationship between the Irish Sea modal and any of the 11-13 varieties.  

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NealtheRed
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« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2009, 06:56:05 PM »

Well, I don't think the whole cluster is related to the Irish Sea type, but there are a number of folks who match key markers in the Irish Sea modal. We won't really know unless some of these guys do further testing to see if they are closely related with the Irish Sea group.

There are couple of guys in that Ros-Mascy cluster that are in the Leinster group too. At least one of them came back L159.2-, possibly branching off before.
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OConnor
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« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2009, 07:25:30 PM »

I am

CCC G

R-L159.2+
« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 07:26:03 PM by OConnor » Logged

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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2009, 11:04:42 AM »

Well, I don't think the whole cluster is related to the Irish Sea type, but there are a number of folks who match key markers in the Irish Sea modal. We won't really know unless some of these guys do further testing to see if they are closely related with the Irish Sea group.

There are couple of guys in that Ros-Mascy cluster that are in the Leinster group too. At least one of them came back L159.2-, possibly branching off before.
It very well could be that a couple of folks like those in the Ros-Mascy cluster branched off of the Irish Sea group very early.
In fact, by definition of the L21+ clade, they definitely did.  The question is did they branch off with their 406s1=11 617=13 mutations after the base of the Irish Sea group's MRCA or before? or perhaps the question is did most of the 11-13 split from Irish Sea well before either's MRCA?  Of course that means the relationship is very weak.

I wish I would have done this earlier, but I'll compare GD's to see where we came out in Ysearch against BNNW4, the 67 marker Leinster/Irish Sea Modal.

Downing (159.2+) 4PSCK - GD of 11
O'Connor (159.2+) MPZR9 - GD of 20
Rose (?) - KT39P - GD of 26
Massie (159.2-) 4HMKQ - GD of 28
Walsh (?) RXYKH - GD of 19

The Rose and Massie ht's are pretty typical for their group. They actually look more divergent from Irish Sea/Leinster than I thought.

Is O'Connor the furthest known GD from Irish Sea/Leinster that is L159.2+ ?   How old do the Beatty/Brynes/McGlaughin forum people think it is?  I'll put this question over in the L159 thread where it belongs.

I guess I need to get tested for L159 but 617 is a pretty slow marker and its mutation to 13 seems to have happened quite a while ago for its alignment with 406s1 to be as strong as it is.  Everyone who is L159.2+ so far is modal (12) on 617 and modal on 406s1 as well... except two are off-modal on 406s1 the opposite direction.

I just think I'll be 159.2-.  If I'm going for all minuses I have to think about the full package to be certain to maintain a true "*" status for L21.  If I come out minus for just 159.2 I haven't gained much knowledge.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 11:06:46 AM by Mike » Logged

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OConnor
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« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2009, 08:53:29 PM »

I took Downing's and mine 47 common str's and put them in Y-search with genetic distance of 2, and the Beatties pop up. Possibly others. At a G/D of 3 you'll probably find the rest of the L159+ people. (plus a lot of others)
Y-search 7UKVB

Some of the Beatties are 46/47 ..they have 458=17..while some of us sport an 18.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 09:57:17 PM by OConnor » Logged

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M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2009, 09:07:48 PM »

I took Downing's and mine 47 common str's and put them in Y-search with genetic distance of 2, and the Beatties pop up. Possibly others. At a G/D of 3 you'll probably find the rest of the L159+ people. (plus a lot of others)
Y-search 7UKVB


Now that is interesting, sorry to say I'd assumed your L159 result was a parallel mutation, this is a slightly more unstable part of the Y chromosome. However this seems to suggest this is a shared mutation that goes a lot further back
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2009, 09:46:39 PM »

I don't know if I mentioned this previously, but our Gaston L159.2+ says his family comes from Huguenot settlers in Scotland. He, along with Baubie and Probst (Baden-Wurttemburg) are our "continental" matches.

This DNA could be quite old. Since it is also present among numerous surnames connected to the Laigin, the theory that this tribe came from Northern Gaul might be true.
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« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2009, 09:59:30 PM »

Some of the Beatties are 46/47 ..they have 458=17..while we sport an 18.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 10:02:54 PM by OConnor » Logged

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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2009, 10:42:53 PM »

18 is another common value for DYS458.
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« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2009, 01:07:53 PM »

The best I can tell is that we have 47 people ordering the L226 SNP singleton test and 23 that are ordering the L21* downstream SNP package.

That is great as we are really going to learn something.

I hope that L226+ is found outside the Irish Type III so that we don't have a lot of those singletons disappointed if the hit rate is real low.... then they decide not to test for any other SNP's for a while, period.
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bart otoole
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« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2009, 05:06:27 PM »

Here's my set of SNP's (from the WTY project)

L130-
L144-
L159-
L192-
L193-
L195-
L226-
L96-

I'm null 425

I'm generally in favor of testing - especially when it comes to getting all those R1b1b2's to test for (at least) L21.
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yDNA L21+ null 425


mtDNA T2e

NealtheRed
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« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2009, 05:14:13 PM »

Thanks for the update, Bart!
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



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