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Author Topic: Sir Osbern le Gardynyr, the Knight R1b1b2 DNA  (Read 5442 times)
gunslingingardner
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« on: December 01, 2009, 12:50:00 AM »

I am researching my ancestor Sir Osbern le Gardynyr, the fearsome warrior and Knight who earned the Gardner Family Coat of Arms while fighting in the Crusades.

It is said that he was the patriarch of the GARDNER family.

He was Norman French. Gardner was feared and respected, being the personal protector of the King of Jeruselem. I believe he was my 21st great grandfather.

Gardner is a surname mixed with European history. Most believe it comes from the Norman French word, 'gardinier' which means gardener. However, in the Masonic book written in the 12th Century it states that the Gardner surname means 'to guard'.

The name Osborne/Osbern is a popular Norman French name of Viking origin which means 'God bearing'.

Does this mean that Sir Osborne Gardner was probably the Y - chromosome descendant of a Norse Viking who invaded with Rollo?

Does anyone have an interest in the Norman French Gardynyers and the history of the Normans, or surnames?


Best,
Corey Gardner
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OConnor
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« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2009, 04:12:13 PM »

Could he have been your  10'th cousin 3 times removed?
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gunslingingardner
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« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2009, 02:36:09 PM »

How would he be related then if I descended from him almost 1000 years ago?
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OConnor
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« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2009, 04:13:43 PM »

Was he the 1st Gardner?

I found an English Gardner
http://www.houseofnames.com/xq/asp.c/qx/Gardner-coat-arms.htm

and also a German Gardner
http://www.houseofnames.com/xq/asp.c/Origin.GR/qx/Gardner-coat-arms.htm

« Last Edit: December 03, 2009, 04:17:12 PM by OConnor » Logged

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gunslingingardner
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« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2009, 12:13:01 AM »

The House of Names is a ridiculous website. Do you really think they research your surname? No, they just assume what your surname means.

Yeah, everyone thinks Gardner means gardener, Baker means baker, Fisher means fisherman, so on and so on.

Sir Osbern le Gardyner is the first Gardner every recorded in history.

If I descended from him, I would be like his 21st great grandson or something.

Why did you say 10th cousin 3 times removed?


I don't know how else he'd be related and why he'd be a cousin instead of a grandfather if I descended from him.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2009, 10:58:09 AM »

I think Mr. O'Connor was referring to the possibility that your ancestor could be anyone who took the Gardner name. For example, my surname is Downing but there are plenty of Downing lines that I do not match, even some in different haplogroups! Downing in England is an Anglo-Saxon patronymic. However, I tend to match some Irish folks closer than those from East Anglia or Denmark.

Sure, it's a possibility this knight was your ancestor, but until we get his DNA it would be hard to say. No one knows for sure!
« Last Edit: December 05, 2009, 11:00:37 AM by NealtheRed » Logged

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gunslingingardner
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« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2009, 02:01:54 PM »

The thing is that I am positive I descended from this knight Sir Osbern Gardnyr.

All of the early English/French settlers who emigrated to America in the 1600's and even some in the 1700's and 1800's were descended from this one man.

And of course not all people with the last name Gardner are related.

This is how I found out:

I had already researched my Gardner family back to the 1700's and found it very interesting. Then I found a very important piece of information. A relative back in the 1800's had written that the Gardners came from England and landed in VA and some in NY.

Well, from this information, I connected the prominent Gardner family of New England with mine, the Gardners of the South.

The Gardners in New England are proven descendants of Sir Osbern Gardynyr, the original bearer. That means I am probably related to Col. Thomas Gardner, the Patriot and Revolutionary War hero and that prominent family.

The Gardners in the South must have lost contact or they just weren't that interested in family history like my father.

Another interesting note of how I am sure I descended from this knight and the original family is because when I was 12 years old I had found a picture of Confederate General Franklin Gardner, a New Yorker who later died in Louisiana.

He looked just like my father and I said to myself he had to have been related. Well, General Franklin Gardner descended from Sir Osbern GARDNER. And that bit of information that my 19th Century cousin wrote about the Gardners is evidence in my mind.

I really don't have the proof or time or money to do DNA testing but it's all about what you believe.

And of course all Gardners are not related.

They had German, French, Dutch, and other immigrants with names like Gaertner, Jardinier (which does mean gardener), and Gardenier that changed to Gardner when they arrived in America. These families were immigrating from the 1600's to the 1900's. That's why not all Gardners are related.

I believe I am related to about 50 percent of Gardners and the other 50 percent were originally Jardinier, Desjardin, Gardenier, Gaertner, etc.

Any Gardners with R1b1b2 DNA are probably related, but most who just came from Western Europe like most Gardners with have that DNA.

I believe I had seen where one of the proven descendants of Sir Osbern Gardynyr were confirmed as R1b1b2 Y - chromosome.

Best,
Corey
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vtilroe
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« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2009, 02:19:48 PM »

The House of Names is a ridiculous website. Do you really think they research your surname? No, they just assume what your surname means.

Just an aside, and off topic for this tread, but I agree 5000%...

I found my surname "Tilroe" listed on that site about 7 years ago.  Stunned, my curiosity got the better of me and I purchased a copy of the history and coat-of-arms.

[I knew previously that "Tilroe" likely originated from "van Tielro", meaning 'of Tielrode', a small village which is now part of Temse, Belgium - I know of maps that clearly show 17th century spelling both as "Tilro" and "Tielro"]

When I got it, House of Names alleged that "Tilroe" came from England.  I asked the webmaster for his source, and he admitted that he merely took the coat-of-arms and origin for "Taylor" (itself likely fraudulent) and changed the name.  I then requested a refund and posted a strong objection with yahoo.com, which was at the time host for House of Names among other small-time/petty e-commerce sites.

Soon after I finally received my refund (several months later), the webmaster asked why I had posted such a strong objection with Yahoo.  Duuhh....

Some research revealed (from their own website) that House of Names was founded by a Seattle street-side hawker.  I'm fairly certain that the large majority of content pitched by House of Names is completely fabricated if not completely fraudulent.
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« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2009, 02:58:21 PM »

Any Gardners with R1b1b2 DNA are probably related

I wouldn't bet on that personally, in the Stedman DNA project (a name that is 5 times less common in the UK than Gardener) we have two groups which include UK born members, each group has been proven back to at least 1650, but are from opposite sides of England, the one is R1b1b2a1a and the other R1b1b2a1b5. We also have early historic references to the name in both areas though admittedly not 12th C.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2009, 03:00:40 PM by Jdean » Logged

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GoldenHind
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« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2009, 09:00:42 PM »

One must also keep in mind that most of these old genealogies connecting to famous people are not reliable. There is one which traces the descent of my surname from Neal de St. Sauveur, vicomte of the Cotentin in Normandy, and another which purports to start with Odin.
I'm not planning to move into the old family castle (or Valhalla) anytime soon.
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rms2
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« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2009, 09:10:35 PM »

One must also keep in mind that most of these old genealogies connecting to famous people are not reliable. There is one which traces the descent of my surname from Neal de St. Sauveur, vicomte of the Cotentin in Normandy, and another which purports to start with Odin.
I'm not planning to move into the old family castle (or Valhalla) anytime soon.

I've seen claims that my surname (Stevens) was established in England by a Breton knight with the surname Fitzstephen and also by a Norman knight with the surname Etienne. Those sound great to me, but I figure I am probably descended from Stephen the Hardpressed, downtrodden peasant or perhaps even serf.

It's either that or Slobo the Village Idiot.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2009, 05:38:25 PM »

One must also keep in mind that most of these old genealogies connecting to famous people are not reliable. There is one which traces the descent of my surname from Neal de St. Sauveur, vicomte of the Cotentin in Normandy, and another which purports to start with Odin.
I'm not planning to move into the old family castle (or Valhalla) anytime soon.

I've seen claims that my surname (Stevens) was established in England by a Breton knight with the surname Fitzstephen and also by a Norman knight with the surname Etienne. Those sound great to me, but I figure I am probably descended from Stephen the Hardpressed, downtrodden peasant or perhaps even serf.

It's either that or Slobo the Village Idiot.

That makes me wonder what some of my ancestors' names were... Lol Slobo.
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« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2009, 06:51:47 PM »

There are lots of Gardeners in their project.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/GardnerGarner/default.aspx

I guess one would need some kind of pedigree going back that far to be able to make such a possitive claim.

I was hoping to be King Roddy O'Conor's offspring. :(
You don't suppose he'd be R-L159.2+ ??

Royal House of Connacht - Brother of King Rory
Cathal Crovderg O'Conor   Connacht  R1b1b2a1b5
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http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/conner/results
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gunslingingardner
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« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2009, 11:42:01 PM »

I have placed myself as a descendant of Sir Osbern Gardner. I've seen pictures of some of his proven descendants and I feel that is who I have descended from in my own belief. It is interesting how that one piece of evidence of that relative in the 19th Century wrote helped me place myself as a descendant of the original family.

The Gardner surname:

Arms -- "Argent, a chevron gules between three bugle-horns stringed sable".
Crest - "An arm in armor, proper, hand grasping the broken shaft of a lance."

GAR means weapon or spear or javelin; notice the broken shaft of a lance.
DYN means sound of alarm; notice the three bugle - horns stringed sable.
ER means termination.

Someone suggested that Gardynyr, being Norman French, it was odd to have y's in the name and that was a more Old English writing and the Gardners were a Breton family of Norman blood.

Did Norman knights move into Brittany, France, and later invade into the British Isles?


It sounds possible.

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« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2009, 01:53:01 PM »

I've seen claims that my surname (Stevens) was established in England by a Breton knight with the surname Fitzstephen and also by a Norman knight with the surname Etienne. Those sound great to me, but I figure I am probably descended from Stephen the Hardpressed, downtrodden peasant or perhaps even serf.  ....
I think all of the above are true for almost all of us.  I can't imagine that out of the last 60 generations there wasn't both a peasant (probably a number) and a clan chief among my ancestors.
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OConnor
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« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2009, 01:53:57 PM »

The name of Normandy is derived from the settlement and conquest of the territory by Vikings ("Northmen") from the 9th century, and confirmed by treaty in the 10th century.

For a century and a half following the Norman Conquest of England in 1066, Normandy and England were linked by Norman rulers, but following 1204 the continental territory was ultimately held by France.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normandy
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« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2009, 04:40:51 PM »

I have placed myself as a descendant of Sir Osbern Gardner. I've seen pictures of some of his proven descendants and I feel that is who I have descended from in my own belief. It is interesting how that one piece of evidence of that relative in the 19th Century wrote helped me place myself as a descendant of the original family.

The Gardner surname:

Arms -- "Argent, a chevron gules between three bugle-horns stringed sable".
Crest - "An arm in armor, proper, hand grasping the broken shaft of a lance."

GAR means weapon or spear or javelin; notice the broken shaft of a lance.
DYN means sound of alarm; notice the three bugle - horns stringed sable.
ER means termination.

Someone suggested that Gardynyr, being Norman French, it was odd to have y's in the name and that was a more Old English writing and the Gardners were a Breton family of Norman blood.

Did Norman knights move into Brittany, France, and later invade into the British Isles?


It sounds possible.


I dislike attacking others ancestral claims because I think it is rude, but your whole scenario seems at best highly unlikely to me, or about as likely as Norman knights in Brittany.
Can you refer us to any primary source material- not some old pedigree- which mentions this Osbern le Gardynyr? Mention of individual crusader knights in historical records is extremely rare. Or can you tell us if there are any le Gardynyrs listed in Domesday book? If you can produce something along these lines, we might start taking your claims seriously.
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gunslingingardner
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« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2009, 12:37:32 AM »

Yeah, goldenbehind,

It really seems you don't care to attack other people on their ancestral claims.

I don't appreciate when others don't take what I say seriously when they have no idea about anything on my family.

It sounds highly likely to me that I descended from Sir Osbern Gardynyr, the Knight and yes there are records of him, since I have actually done research along with others. I personally don't have the records in my file right now, there with another Gardner who will send them to me hopefully this month.

When I get them on file hopefully this month, I'll download them to you if you are really that interested in my family history but honestly I really don't care to try and prove what I say to someone so rude and skeptical who finds what I have found "highly unlikely".

I've just finally traced my ancestry and connected to the right Gardner family and other researchers agree with me.

It was recorded that Gardner was feared and respected it was noted and he spoke with a strong French accent being disliked by the courts in England. There was a Saracen on the Gardner Family Crest for a while after Gardner killed the Saracens but it was later taken off the crest. I've been researching my ancestry for about five years solid.

How would I show a primary source material on this website?

And why would I want to take the time to download something that proves Sir Osbern Gardner was noted as a Crusader and was in the Domesday book when you don't take what I say seriously?

Are you interested in the Gardner family?

I have actually researched the Gardner family history and surname.

If you don't take my "claims" seriously, then don't comment but thanks for your interest.
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« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2009, 06:25:04 AM »

One must also keep in mind that most of these old genealogies connecting to famous people are not reliable. There is one which traces the descent of my surname from Neal de St. Sauveur, vicomte of the Cotentin in Normandy, and another which purports to start with Odin.
I'm not planning to move into the old family castle (or Valhalla) anytime soon.

I've seen claims that my surname (Stevens) was established in England by a Breton knight with the surname Fitzstephen and also by a Norman knight with the surname Etienne. Those sound great to me, but I figure I am probably descended from Stephen the Hardpressed, downtrodden peasant or perhaps even serf.

It's either that or Slobo the Village Idiot.

As it happens the shed my most distant known ancestor lived in is still standing, however it did have the luxury of a fire place back then, kind of get the impression it would have been more than a little brisk first thing in the morning though.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 06:26:36 AM by Jdean » Logged

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« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2009, 03:13:10 PM »



It was recorded that Gardner was feared and respected it was noted and he spoke with a strong French accent being disliked by the courts in England. There was a Saracen on the Gardner Family Crest for a while after Gardner killed the Saracens but it was later taken off the crest. I've been researching my ancestry for about five years solid.

How would I show a primary source material on this website?

And why would I want to take the time to download something that proves Sir Osbern Gardner was noted as a Crusader and was in the Domesday book when you don't take what I say seriously?


Well you could start by telling us which manor(s) the le Gardynyrs held and in which county in Domesday. Or what primary references your information about Sir Osbern comes from. I don't require any downloads. Just a reference like Villehardouin's Chronicle of the Crusades will suffice. I don't ask you to prove your descent, just something to show this Sir Osbern actually existed. Where was it recorded that Sir Osbern was respected and feared and spoke with a strong French accent?
You came onto this forum to ask us our opinion, and when I am sceptical of your claims you take offense. You asked who is knowledgeable about the Normans or surnames. I have done extensive studies in both areas as well as the period of the Norman Conquest. And as I said before, mention of individual crusaders (as opposed to the leaders) in medieval chronicles is extremely rare. Which crusade did Sir Osbern participate in?
« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 03:15:22 PM by GoldenHind » Logged
gunslingingardner
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« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2009, 03:49:46 PM »

That's all you had to ask instead of the reply of not taking what I say seriously.

Sir Osbern Gardiner was Lord of the Manor of Lancashire, England along the Douglas River in Wigan Parish, back in the 12th Century. This is probably why my Gardners always considered themselves Scots. They were basically Scots instead of English, but in reality they were Norman French.

Look it on google or something. You won't find much to be honest. You will find that Sir Osbern Gardner was Lord of the Manor but that's really about it on the net.

The Gardners came from France, invaded England, lived in Scotland and northern England, then migrated into southern England, and from London and Yorkshire they emigrated to America.

These are the different Gardner families:

Gardynyr, the original family that came from France and invaded England (pretty much anyone who came from England in the 1600's to America was related).

Gartner, the German family which changed its name to Gardner when they came to America.

Gaertner, another German family that changed its name to Gardner.

Gardenier, a Dutch family that immigrated in the 1600's and changed its name to "Gardner", they lived in New York, Ohio, and moved into Kansas.

Jardinier, a French name that means gardener and when they immigrated to Canada, they changed there name to Gardner so it would sound more Anglo - Saxon.

There were a lot of people in the Middle Ages from the Clan Jardine and Clan Gordon whose name changed to de Gardinis, and they probably changed there name to Gardner over time.

At first I thought my ancestors came from Clan Jardine and not everyone in the clan was related and that's why Gardners were not all related.

The only Gardners I can actually PROVE are those of the immediate family going back to the 1700's, but a genealogist must fall on migrations.

I have never taken a DNA test, but about five Gardners did who are related and they came out as R1b1b2 from what I know. I really don't have the money to pay for the test. I would like to though.

It could take a hundred years to get a bunch of Gardners to take the DNA tests to see who is related and who is not related, some people just don't have money like myself.

Here's the trick:

There were two Sir Osbern Gardners.

The first Sir Osbern Gardner was the Norman knight who invaded into England during the Norman Conquest. Another Gardner who has done research will hopefully send the document to me this month. This guy has gone back so far all of the records are written French. I believe he looked at the Domesday book, I personally haven't with my own eyes.

The second Sir Osbern Gardner, probably the grandson or great grandson of the first,  lived from (1125 - 1200) during the time of Richard the Lionheart.

This Sir Osbern Gardner was born abt. 1128 and was Lord of the Manor of Lancashire, England. There is documentation that Osbern Gardner was the protector of the King of Jeruselam. He fought in the Second Crusades and in 1191 Gardner killed a Saracen who was bearing down on King Richard I, the Lionheart.

I'll have to get back in touch with that Gardner that found all of this stuff. I'm the kind of person who only remembers interesting details. The guy told me his references, but personally I always forget references.

I don't really care if any of you are skeptical, if I was embellishing I'd say Sir Osbern Gardner was Superman, went to Harvard, knocked out Mike Tyson, beat Michael Phelps at swimming, and was the greatest man that ever lived.

Take it or leave it.

I didn't ask for anyone's opinion, this is what I asked or meant to ask:

Does anyone have knowledge of the Norman French language?

Does anyone know the various meaning of the Norman French word 'gardinier?

It usually means gardener. A Norman French linguist told me that a gardener could become a knight. He also said that 'gardinier' has more than one meaning but apparently lost contact.

Some historian suggested the name was Breton because it was spelled Gardynyr instead of Gardinier, with a mix of Old English and Old French.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2009, 04:50:52 PM »

That's all you had to ask instead of the reply of not taking what I say seriously.

Sir Osbern Gardiner was Lord of the Manor of Lancashire, England along the Douglas River in Wigan Parish, back in the 12th Century. This is probably why my Gardners always considered themselves Scots. They were basically Scots instead of English, but in reality they were Norman French.

Look it on google or something. You won't find much to be honest. You will find that Sir Osbern Gardner was Lord of the Manor but that's really about it on the net.

The Gardners came from France, invaded England, lived in Scotland and northern England, then migrated into southern England, and from London and Yorkshire they emigrated to America.

These are the different Gardner families:

Gardynyr, the original family that came from France and invaded England (pretty much anyone who came from England in the 1600's to America was related).

Gartner, the German family which changed its name to Gardner when they came to America.

Gaertner, another German family that changed its name to Gardner.

Gardenier, a Dutch family that immigrated in the 1600's and changed its name to "Gardner", they lived in New York, Ohio, and moved into Kansas.

Jardinier, a French name that means gardener and when they immigrated to Canada, they changed there name to Gardner so it would sound more Anglo - Saxon.

There were a lot of people in the Middle Ages from the Clan Jardine and Clan Gordon whose name changed to de Gardinis, and they probably changed there name to Gardner over time.

At first I thought my ancestors came from Clan Jardine and not everyone in the clan was related and that's why Gardners were not all related.

The only Gardners I can actually PROVE are those of the immediate family going back to the 1700's, but a genealogist must fall on migrations.

I have never taken a DNA test, but about five Gardners did who are related and they came out as R1b1b2 from what I know. I really don't have the money to pay for the test. I would like to though.

It could take a hundred years to get a bunch of Gardners to take the DNA tests to see who is related and who is not related, some people just don't have money like myself.

Here's the trick:

There were two Sir Osbern Gardners.

The first Sir Osbern Gardner was the Norman knight who invaded into England during the Norman Conquest. Another Gardner who has done research will hopefully send the document to me this month. This guy has gone back so far all of the records are written French. I believe he looked at the Domesday book, I personally haven't with my own eyes.

The second Sir Osbern Gardner, probably the grandson or great grandson of the first,  lived from (1125 - 1200) during the time of Richard the Lionheart.

This Sir Osbern Gardner was born abt. 1128 and was Lord of the Manor of Lancashire, England. There is documentation that Osbern Gardner was the protector of the King of Jeruselam. He fought in the Second Crusades and in 1191 Gardner killed a Saracen who was bearing down on King Richard I, the Lionheart.

I'll have to get back in touch with that Gardner that found all of this stuff. I'm the kind of person who only remembers interesting details. The guy told me his references, but personally I always forget references.

I don't really care if any of you are skeptical, if I was embellishing I'd say Sir Osbern Gardner was Superman, went to Harvard, knocked out Mike Tyson, beat Michael Phelps at swimming, and was the greatest man that ever lived.

Take it or leave it.

I didn't ask for anyone's opinion, this is what I asked or meant to ask:

Does anyone have knowledge of the Norman French language?

Does anyone know the various meaning of the Norman French word 'gardinier?

It usually means gardener. A Norman French linguist told me that a gardener could become a knight. He also said that 'gardinier' has more than one meaning but apparently lost contact.

Some historian suggested the name was Breton because it was spelled Gardynyr instead of Gardinier, with a mix of Old English and Old French.

Easy there, pardner... No one is coming out saying that you do not descend from this fellow, but by you making this claim it must hold up to the most scrutinizing methods of investigation. There are plenty of Gardners out there, especially in England and Scotland I am sure, that are not related. Now, how would you separate one R1b Gardner from another, who have totally different STR values? What if one Gardner is L21+, yet another is U106? Who is the true descendant of Sir Osbern Gardynyr?

That is why we are being inquisitive into the matter. Genealogies such as this are very hard to prove.

And the only Superman I know of is David Faux.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



OConnor
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« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2009, 06:04:35 PM »

I googled.... Sir Osbern le Gardynyr ......and... not one hit.

I googled Davix Faux and got..... 5,630,000 results
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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gunslingingardner
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« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2009, 08:05:12 PM »

They don't spell it Gardynyr anymore, only in the old records.

Google the name Sir Osborn Gardiner, the Knight, and something should come, you got to be open minded when it comes to spelling O' Connor, (it's Gardner, not Gardener).

All I am saying is that I finally (loosely) connected my family to Sir Osbern Gardynyr based on migration and pieces of evidence throughout the years.

I know a lot of you are skeptics and DNA is the only way, but the only thing I was trying to do was see if someone had knowledge of the Norman French language and culture.

I didn't ask everyone to question my research and evidence that I found. I had already explained the different Gardner families. I also loosley explained my evidence.

http://ted.gardner.org/gardname.htm

This mentions Sir Osborn Gardynyr, nothing much else on the net.

Does anyone have knowledge of the Norman French language?




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GoldenHind
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« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2009, 09:39:17 PM »

Sir Osbern Gardiner was Lord of the Manor of Lancashire, England along the Douglas River in Wigan Parish, back in the 12th Century. This is probably why my Gardners always considered themselves Scots. They were basically Scots instead of English, but in reality they were Norman French.

Look it on google or something. You won't find much to be honest. You will find that Sir Osbern Gardner was Lord of the Manor but that's really about it on the net.






There were two Sir Osbern Gardners.

The first Sir Osbern Gardner was the Norman knight who invaded into England during the Norman Conquest. Another Gardner who has done research will hopefully send the document to me this month. This guy has gone back so far all of the records are written French. I believe he looked at the Domesday book, I personally haven't with my own eyes.

The second Sir Osbern Gardner, probably the grandson or great grandson of the first,  lived from (1125 - 1200) during the time of Richard the Lionheart.

This Sir Osbern Gardner was born abt. 1128 and was Lord of the Manor of Lancashire, England. There is documentation that Osbern Gardner was the protector of the King of Jeruselam. He fought in the Second Crusades and in 1191 Gardner killed a Saracen who was bearing down on King Richard I, the Lionheart.


Does anyone know the various meaning of the Norman French word 'gardinier?

Look, I am not claiming your two Sir Osberns did not exist or that you are making this up. I would not be surprised however if whomever originally came up with this information may have got carried away by his enthusiam in the claims he makes.
Lancashire is a county in England, not the name of a manor. However it did not yet exist as such at the time of the Norman Conquest or Domesday. Most of it was referred to as the Land Between the Ribble and Mersey. Wigan is not even mentioned in it. Nor is there any Osbern who held any manor in that area.
I happen to have a copy of  the Domesday Survey which includes those lands which later became Lancashire.
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