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Author Topic: Extinction vs. Continuity Theories of the Anglo-Saxon Settlement of Britain  (Read 5027 times)
rms2
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« Reply #50 on: November 26, 2009, 08:50:38 AM »

RMS2, what's your guesstimate as to the rate of R-L21+ in England?  I know you have sorted through this for France.  Do you have a feel for the % of population of MDKA's of England that is L21+?  I think the same question for all of P312+ is also interesting.

It would be tough to guess at what proportion of English y-dna L21 is. That it is very common there I think is fairly obvious; it may be the biggest clade in England (I think it probably is). There is also a lot of U106 and its subclades there, as well as R-P312* (however it ultimately breaks down), U152 and its subclades, and some SRY2627. Of course, I'm talking about R1b1b2 and not venturing into the minority y haplogroups.

The U106 Project isn't much help, since it lumps all British Isles results into one category (but I've done the same thing with R-P312*). One would have to go through and count all the specifically English entries. That would probably be impossible. What shows up on the Y-DNA Results pages of FTDNA projects is supplied by members on their "Plot Ancestral Locations" pages. Very often the ancestral location doesn't make it onto the screen.

This topic is interesting, but I don't have a position. On the one hand, the absolute triumph of a Germanic language in what is now England must indicate significant Germanic-speaking population flow, at least into SE England. On the other, the y-dna picture is hard to sort out. Even if one concedes that all or most of the U106 and I1 in England is Anglo-Saxon (leaving out the Vikings for the moment), what does he do with the rest?

It would be a strain to argue that U152 is AS in England. It is pretty scarce in the old continental AS homelands and Scandinavia. The same is true of SRY2627. R-P312* is tough to call because it isn't one thing that can be nailed down. It could be anything from Iberian to Scandinavian.

L21 has shown up in a few guys whose ancestors came from the old continental AS homelands, and it is showing up pretty strongly in Norway (an under tested region). However, it is so overwhelming in the so-called "Celtic Fringe" of the British Isles that it seems to me a tough sell to make it Anglo-Saxon east of Offa's Dyke.

I do think it is clear that P312+ of whatever kind outnumbers P312- of whatever kind in England (and probably nearly everywhere in Europe).
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Jean M
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« Reply #51 on: November 26, 2009, 04:05:01 PM »

Do you have an opinion as far as the start of the migration (pre-industrial) period?  In other words, as of 1500-1600 AD, do you think East Anglia was entirely (as in complete or almost complete replacement) Anglo-Saxon, in terms of Y-DNA?

I doubt whether any part of the British Isles could claim to to be genetically pure anything at any time.  ;) People mix. They would have mixed before they arrived and carried right on mixing afterwards. That's the complex reality.

We may guess that some people who arrived among the Anglian settlers carried Y-DNA indistinguishable from that of native Britons. (There were Bell Beaker settlements in Northern Denmark.)  We may guess that some Britons were absorbed into the new settlement in one way or another.

We know that Danes/Vikings later settled in the area.  We know that the Normans foisted their own elite upon the Anglo-Saxons across the country. Eventually they too intermixed. Then we have centuries in which some people at least travelled about England.  

All I'm saying is that the picture in East Anglia is of mass settlement of incomers, not a tiny elite taking over the Romano-British towns and villas and ruling a lot of Britons who stayed where they were.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2009, 04:07:54 PM by Jean M » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #52 on: November 26, 2009, 07:37:25 PM »

If as Rich says L21 is probably the biggest single R1b clade in England then that is likely to be very different from the L21 count in the Anglo-Saxon homelands.  That is surely telling us something.  As I said, Norwegian input (compared to that from Denmark and north Germany) in England is pretty minor in both the Anglo-Saxon and Viking periods. So, I do not believe that is a significant source of English L21. 

So, I would still figure a rough idea of % of minimum Pre-Germanic surivial may be indicated by the comparative percentages of L21 (as a % of R1b2b2) in England and in the A-S homelands.  I suspect (although this is not on firm foundations) that there is double in England than in the A-S homelands.  I agree too with Rich that some sort of pre-Germanic intrusion into England seems a more likely source for S28. 

As the maps stand it is perverse/anti-Occam's razor to not conclude that L21 and S28 has a very good correlation with the former Gaulish Cetlic area of Europe or at least part of the latter.  Both experience a sharp drop off once the Iron Age Celtic-German divide is crossed.  It seems there is also a major drop-off along the early historic Celtic-Germanic divide in the isles.  So, it is probably being overcautious to not see these clades in the isels as likely pre-Germanic indicators as a whole. What interests me is that the divide/.drop off is nowhere near as sharp in the isles.  I think this may be an indicator that the English are a real mix of A-S an Britons.  If this reasoning is correct this places England as considrably more Germanic than France but considerably less so than northern Europe east of the Rhine. 
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #53 on: November 26, 2009, 07:56:14 PM »

I should also add that we have no idea of the origin of S116* in the isles.  It is common both in the old Gaulish areas and in the Germanic areas so its pretty much impossible to say how much was brought by who at present.

As for S21, although its very unfashionable to correlates clades with cultural groupings, S21 does seem to act like a mirror to L21 one generally being higher where the othe ris lower.  Again it seems to have a drop off as the German-Celtic Iron Age division on the continent and the similar later division in the isles is crossed. So, as with the suggestion that L21 is a good pre-Germanic indicator (other than perhaps in Norway) is not without some merit.  However it is common in Belgic areas of both the continent and Britain so it is not possible to eliminate the possibility that a portion of English S21 is pre-Germanic.

So if in England most L21, most S28, an unknown portion of S116* and perhaps even some S21 could be pre-Germanic in the British lines.  Also of course some of the I clades too.  All in all that would make for a very significant pre-AS element in the English population. I realise this is far from concrete but its a working hypothesis to debate and test.
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Jean M
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« Reply #54 on: November 26, 2009, 08:24:53 PM »

If this reasoning is correct this places England as considerably more Germanic than France but considerably less so than northern Europe east of the Rhine.  

Although this would more or less fit the linguistic picture, I would urge caution in drawing conclusions from present populations. England has had immigrants from the Celtic fringe for many centuries. Initially I picture a frantic rush to get out of the path of Germanic incomers. We know some Britons moved to Brittany. We may guess that others fled west and north, perhaps as far as Ireland in some cases.

But as England grew fat on good land and wool in the Middle Ages, it tugged in people looking for opportunities. (That is where we get the surnames Scott and Walsh.) That is before we even consider the massive immigration in the 19th century.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2009, 08:43:51 PM by Jean M » Logged
authun
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« Reply #55 on: November 27, 2009, 08:36:39 AM »

As I said, Norwegian input (compared to that from Denmark and north Germany) in England is pretty minor in both the Anglo-Saxon and Viking periods. So, I do not believe that is a significant source of English L21.

We don't know that because we don't know who was living in Vestfold, Norway or Zeeland in Denmark in the 5th or 6th cents. It is in the mid 6th cents that we see a change in the cultures in these areas. Gregory of Tours describes the invaders in northern Gaul in 515 as Danes. Widdukind of Corvey writing later and attempting to describe who the saxons are states, 'some say they are Danes'. Yet the isotopic evidence from 5th/6th century 'Anglian' graves in Yorkshire or from the 8th/9th century grave of a woman at Adwick le Street in Yorkshire show possible origins in Norway. The grave goods support this. The concept that ancient Danes, Angles and Norwegians fit neatly into modern Denmark, Anglen and Norway is far too simple.

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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #56 on: November 27, 2009, 05:54:38 PM »

RMS2, what's your guesstimate as to the rate of R-L21+ in England?  I know you have sorted through this for France.  Do you have a feel for the % of population of MDKA's of England that is L21+?  I think the same question for all of P312+ is also interesting.
It would be tough to guess at what proportion of English y-dna L21 is. That it is very common there I think is fairly obvious; it may be the biggest clade in England (I think it probably is). There is also a lot of U106 and its subclades there, as well as R-P312* (however it ultimately breaks down), U152 and its subclades, and some SRY2627. Of course, I'm talking about R1b1b2 and not venturing into the minority y haplogroups.

The U106 Project isn't much help, since it lumps all British Isles results into one category (but I've done the same thing with R-P312*). One would have to go through and count all the specifically English entries. That would probably be impossible. What shows up on the Y-DNA Results pages of FTDNA projects is supplied by members on their "Plot Ancestral Locations" pages. Very often the ancestral location doesn't make it onto the screen.

This topic is interesting, but I don't have a position. On the one hand, the absolute triumph of a Germanic language in what is now England must indicate significant Germanic-speaking population flow, at least into SE England. On the other, the y-dna picture is hard to sort out. Even if one concedes that all or most of the U106 and I1 in England is Anglo-Saxon (leaving out the Vikings for the moment), what does he do with the rest?

It would be a strain to argue that U152 is AS in England. It is pretty scarce in the old continental AS homelands and Scandinavia. The same is true of SRY2627. R-P312* is tough to call because it isn't one thing that can be nailed down. It could be anything from Iberian to Scandinavian.

L21 has shown up in a few guys whose ancestors came from the old continental AS homelands, and it is showing up pretty strongly in Norway (an under tested region). However, it is so overwhelming in the so-called "Celtic Fringe" of the British Isles that it seems to me a tough sell to make it Anglo-Saxon east of Offa's Dyke.

I do think it is clear that P312+ of whatever kind outnumbers P312- of whatever kind in England (and probably nearly everywhere in Europe).
These numbers are not relative but since I took the time to break people out by region, here is the info.  In the R-21* haplotype spreadsheet, which includes the project and Ysearch and surname projects that I could find, here are England's numbers of R-L21* confirmed folks:

120 England (12% of the total in the database)

9   North West
2   North East
10 West Midlands
8   Yorkshire
8   East Midlands
8   East
14 London
16 South West
7   South East
38 unknown or unstated

Wow, just noticed this. Wales has 63.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2009, 05:55:12 PM by Mike » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
GoldenHind
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« Reply #57 on: November 27, 2009, 08:39:50 PM »

I am inclined to accept that the bulk of L21 in England is of British origin, but I would be very surprised if it all is. L21 clearly had a presence on the continent, and due to the sparsity of SNP testing in such places as Denmark, we really have no way of determining what portion of L21 may have come in with the Germanics.
As for U106, it now appears that the "Frisian" portion of it is largely composed of the recently identified U106 subclade L48. Many have considered U106 a "Germanic" marker because of its "Frisian" association, but if we remove L48, U106* may very well not look anymore Germanic than P312*.
We may one day get to the place where we can distinguish R1b Celts from R1b Germanics solely by subclade, but I don't believe we are there yet.
It might be that comparing various I subclades in England would give a more accurate result, but I am not familiar enough with that HG to know.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2009, 08:41:05 PM by GoldenHind » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #58 on: November 27, 2009, 09:16:36 PM »

I get the impression with HG I that most energy is being expended on finding ever more clusters etc but very little has been done on actually working out percentages of each clade.  I suspect that I as a whole is older than R1b in westerr Europe and that as well as Germanic clades, some i clades represent the pre-R1b population in the isles (either early Neolithic or Mesolithic).  I am completely unaware of any attempts to work out clade prevallence or clade distribution.
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vtilroe
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« Reply #59 on: November 27, 2009, 10:36:39 PM »

I get the impression with HG I that most energy is being expended on finding ever more clusters etc but very little has been done on actually working out percentages of each clade.  I suspect that I as a whole is older than R1b in westerr Europe and that as well as Germanic clades, some i clades represent the pre-R1b population in the isles (either early Neolithic or Mesolithic).  I am completely unaware of any attempts to work out clade prevallence or clade distribution.
There's some interesting stuff Chiaroni et al. 2009, mentioned in Dieneke's blog: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/11/y-chromosome-diversity-human-expansion.html
and in the referenced supplementary material: http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2009/11/12/0910803106/suppl/DCSupplemental, but it takes a general global perspective, not a refined Eurasian one, which is what we really need.
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