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GoldenHind
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« Reply #275 on: February 09, 2011, 05:37:22 PM »

There are currently three Norwegian men, and one American of Norwegian ancestry in the project. Three out of four are L159.2+, with the latter CCGG and he has not tested for L159.2 (although I expect an L159+ result). It is hard to get in contact with some of these folks. There is another Norwegian and Dane (from Northern Denmark - Beaker?) who match the signature, but they have not returned any of my e-mails.

But besides the Norwegians, there are three men with German ancestry in the project - all ancestry from the Rhineland area. Is it just me, or is this looking a lot like the distribution of L21 on the continent? Some could have gone into Scandinavia, while others moved with Celtic tribes into Britain and Ireland.

I'm open to any explanations, even historical movements.



I remember reading something not too long ago which indicated contact between Norway and the British Isles during the Bronze Age. I don't think it is necessary to try to find a single explanation for the spread of L159.2. There could well have been multiple events.
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OConnor
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« Reply #276 on: February 09, 2011, 08:44:11 PM »

If the age of R-L159.2 is 1500+/- years bp, then the bronze age doesn't fit.

Perhaps a bronze age connection back at the R-L21+ level?

« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 08:44:49 PM by OConnor » Logged

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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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NealtheRed
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« Reply #277 on: February 09, 2011, 11:34:14 PM »

There are currently three Norwegian men, and one American of Norwegian ancestry in the project. Three out of four are L159.2+, with the latter CCGG and he has not tested for L159.2 (although I expect an L159+ result). It is hard to get in contact with some of these folks. There is another Norwegian and Dane (from Northern Denmark - Beaker?) who match the signature, but they have not returned any of my e-mails.

But besides the Norwegians, there are three men with German ancestry in the project - all ancestry from the Rhineland area. Is it just me, or is this looking a lot like the distribution of L21 on the continent? Some could have gone into Scandinavia, while others moved with Celtic tribes into Britain and Ireland.

I'm open to any explanations, even historical movements.



I remember reading something not too long ago which indicated contact between Norway and the British Isles during the Bronze Age. I don't think it is necessary to try to find a single explanation for the spread of L159.2. There could well have been multiple events.

That's interesting. Yeah, I totally agree with you. It could be a number of events.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


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NealtheRed
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« Reply #278 on: February 09, 2011, 11:34:56 PM »

If the age of R-L159.2 is 1500+/- years bp, then the bronze age doesn't fit.

Perhaps a bronze age connection back at the R-L21+ level?



L159.2 has gotta be at least 1500 years old, but I am not a numbers guy!
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OConnor
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« Reply #279 on: February 10, 2011, 08:13:57 PM »

This age breakdown was posted in the P312 Topic.

"Here are the ages for the British Isles using Ken's Generations5 calculator.  The estimates are based on 67 marker haplotypes and 30 yrs./generation.  Not every possible sample or combination of subclades was calculated.  For example, Wales only had 1 L176.  Ages are listed as years before present."

L21 */**
England - 3510 n=94
Wales - 3270 n=20
Ireland - 3120 n=170
Scotland  - 2940 n=89
All Isles M222 - 1410 n=47
Ireland M222 - 1320 n=27
All Isles L159 - 1560 n=15
All Isles L193 - 1050 n=11
All Isles L144 - 1680 n=4
England L21 */** (and all Isles m222, L226, L159, L193, and L144) - 3390 n=188

aaaaaaaaaaa

Maybe some L159 will show up in Orkney.
http://www.davidkfaux.org/shetlandislandsY-DNA3

I was a little surprised to see there was no Greenland DNA Project
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 08:52:08 PM by OConnor » Logged

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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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MHammers
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« Reply #280 on: February 11, 2011, 01:54:48 AM »

Here is an update on L159+ ages using data from the L159 Project which has a much larger sample.  Ages are based on 67 markers and 30 yrs./generation.

Intraclade method:
Scotland, G=63/8.8 or 1890+/-264ybp, n=10
England, G=62/12 or 1860+/-360 ybp, n=7
Ireland, G=54/6.3 or 1620+/-189 ybp, n=17
All L159+, G=49/4.7 or 1470+/-141 ybp, n=49

Interclade method:
Scotland and Ireland, G=58/23 or 1740+/-690 ybp
Combined England/Scotland and Ireland, G=55/22 or 1650+/-660 ybp
Scotland and England, G=54/22 or 1620+/-660 ybp
England and Ireland, G=50/20 or 1500+/-600 ybp

Based on this, the origin seems to be Scotland.  Maybe these were the guys that caused Hadrian's wall to be built.  However, with the growing number of continental members, especially from the Germanic countries, hints at a ocean-going movement to Scotland.  I'm only speculating on that as a possibility, though.  It's still too early to tell until we can get a sizeable sample from there.
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OConnor
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« Reply #281 on: February 11, 2011, 10:15:57 AM »

The wall was built in A.D. 122.

The Scot estimate is the oldest at 1890 ybp
So we would have L159 sufacing in Scotland A.D. 110

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

I have to wonder about the S/E Ireland connection.
And N/W Scotland.

A few Continental L159 can be attributed to Norse expansion.
Did the Scandinavians not travel down the Rhine?
It makes more sense to me than going from Germany to S/E Ireland and N/W Scotland, and Norway. This is the path of Norse expansion as I see it.

I assume that if Scandinavia had sufficient numbers of L159 to spread around the Irish Sea, and they still have a few left over today, why couldn't some have gone to the N/W European continent with the Norse.

With that, I am hoping for many more L159's from, or in Scandinavia.
I can only really guess, but to me it looks like some R-L159.2 males came to the Irish Sea area perhaps in the 800's +/- from Norway.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2011, 10:20:52 AM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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NealtheRed
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« Reply #282 on: February 11, 2011, 09:26:29 PM »

Here is an update on L159+ ages using data from the L159 Project which has a much larger sample.  Ages are based on 67 markers and 30 yrs./generation.

Intraclade method:
Scotland, G=63/8.8 or 1890+/-264ybp, n=10
England, G=62/12 or 1860+/-360 ybp, n=7
Ireland, G=54/6.3 or 1620+/-189 ybp, n=17
All L159+, G=49/4.7 or 1470+/-141 ybp, n=49

Interclade method:
Scotland and Ireland, G=58/23 or 1740+/-690 ybp
Combined England/Scotland and Ireland, G=55/22 or 1650+/-660 ybp
Scotland and England, G=54/22 or 1620+/-660 ybp
England and Ireland, G=50/20 or 1500+/-600 ybp

Based on this, the origin seems to be Scotland.  Maybe these were the guys that caused Hadrian's wall to be built.  However, with the growing number of continental members, especially from the Germanic countries, hints at a ocean-going movement to Scotland.  I'm only speculating on that as a possibility, though.  It's still too early to tell until we can get a sizeable sample from there.

Thanks for the age analysis, Mike.

When I recruit many of these Scottish members, I notice that their haplotypes are markedly different from the Irish ones. This is especially true from Western Scotland, including the Hebrides. Our L159+ McKinley's ancestor is from the Isle of Mull, and he surely has an interesting 12-marker haplotype.

All this talk about "The Eagle" and Hadrian's Wall would make a story if some of those barbarians were L159!
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #283 on: February 11, 2011, 09:34:32 PM »

The wall was built in A.D. 122.

The Scot estimate is the oldest at 1890 ybp
So we would have L159 sufacing in Scotland A.D. 110

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

I have to wonder about the S/E Ireland connection.
And N/W Scotland.

A few Continental L159 can be attributed to Norse expansion.
Did the Scandinavians not travel down the Rhine?
It makes more sense to me than going from Germany to S/E Ireland and N/W Scotland, and Norway. This is the path of Norse expansion as I see it.

I assume that if Scandinavia had sufficient numbers of L159 to spread around the Irish Sea, and they still have a few left over today, why couldn't some have gone to the N/W European continent with the Norse.

With that, I am hoping for many more L159's from, or in Scandinavia.
I can only really guess, but to me it looks like some R-L159.2 males came to the Irish Sea area perhaps in the 800's +/- from Norway.

Because L159 is mostly coastal in its distribution across the Irish Sea, I wouldn't be surprised if some of it is Norse or Norse-Gael. Then you have the Kings of Leinster (from Dermot MacMurrough, onwards) who were most likely L159+ too, and these folks were ancient, Gaelic gentry.

But like you and Hammers say, more samples will better our understanding of it all. I keeping finding German surnames, especially those connected with the Rhine area, that are matching the modal.
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OConnor
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« Reply #284 on: March 04, 2011, 07:42:32 PM »

I am sporting my newly confirmed Haplo Group R1b1a2a1a1b4f (R-L159.2+)

Now that Family Tree has updated the Haplo Tree chart.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 07:43:15 PM by OConnor » Logged

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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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NealtheRed
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« Reply #285 on: March 04, 2011, 07:50:00 PM »

I am sporting my newly confirmed Haplo Group R1b1a2a1a1b4f (R-L159.2+)

Now that Family Tree has updated the Haplo Tree chart.

I just saw that! Wow, these haplogroups are getting too long...
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OConnor
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« Reply #286 on: March 05, 2011, 05:21:55 PM »

wouldn't one more be nice?
Maybe leading us up to 500 years before present.

 

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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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A.D.
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« Reply #287 on: March 25, 2011, 02:44:04 PM »

O'Higgins acctualy means 'son of the yellow haired' I've been told theres a gallowglas connection. My O'Higgins ancestors are from Tyrone as far back as anyone Ive spoken
to has traced.
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A.D.
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« Reply #288 on: March 25, 2011, 03:16:57 PM »

Niall of the Nine Hostages, the fifth-century King of Ireland who founded the powerful tribal grouping the Uí Neill.--I read a few years ago that clan UI'Neil came from a king from the north who had success fighting the vikings. He was supposedly a descendant of Nial but the name came from him, if his ancestry from Nial is a fabrication it and the name comes from him , it could explain why the O'Neils seem to lack the O'Neil gene .
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OConnor
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« Reply #289 on: March 25, 2011, 11:44:16 PM »

I found some O'Higgins information.
http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/surname/index.cfm?fuseaction=History&Surname=O%27Higgins&UserID=

It mentions a Viking connection.

I have a 23/25 match with a Michael O'Higgins.
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Friis
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« Reply #290 on: May 13, 2013, 08:36:39 AM »

The distribution of Scottish/Irish/Celtic DNA and SNP L159.2 among Germans and Scandinavians may have a simpler explanation, which is the Scottish Diaspora in the second half of 16th and first half of 17th centuries. This is the period of the 30 years war and Scot mercenaries were employed by Denmark-Norway, Sweden, Holland and Germany. Hundreds of Scots settled down in Norway during this period, they typically took Norwegian names (Jonssen, Jacobsen, et cetera). Some Scots were traders/merchants (timber trade) many were soldiers. Most settled down in the city of Bergen (at least to begin with). Unfortunately only some of these Scots can be found in the surviving documentation - there was a big fire in Bergen in 1703, which destroyed many of the public records. Therefore there are very few Norwegians with this type Y-DNA who can document earliest known ancestor beyond the 17th century. However, approximately 1500 Scots and some Irish who settled down or for some period of time lived in Norway are documented in the Scottish migration research program done by the University of St. Andrews (The Scotland, Scandinavia and Northern European Biographical Database (SSNE)).
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 08:41:50 AM by Friis » Logged

Jan Kyrre Friis
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« Reply #291 on: May 13, 2013, 09:38:11 AM »

There were also thousands of Irish fighting on the continent during this period. Particularly in the likes of the Army of Flanders during the 80 year war.

Albrecht von Wallenstein was assasinated during the 30 year war by combined group of Irish and Scottish officers in the employ of the Habsburgs.

-Paul
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OConnor
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« Reply #292 on: May 16, 2013, 12:45:22 PM »

I believe I started this thread under a previous handle. My L159.2+ was squashed after finding out there was a lab error.

I'm still DF13**
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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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