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GoldenHind
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« Reply #250 on: July 22, 2010, 08:02:34 PM »

I first got interested in Ydna for genealogical purposes by listening to a talk by Prof. Brian Sykes on BBC Radio 4 several years ago. He had commissioned a Ydna study of various Sykes chosen randomly from throughout England. He said the results established that the vast majority of them were descended from a single Sykes living in Yorkshire in the 14th century. I wonder if you have stumbled onto one of them here, and whether the good professor would be interested in testing for L159.2?
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #251 on: July 23, 2010, 04:50:47 PM »

I didn't know that, GoldenHind. I wonder what haplogroup Sykes is? There is a strong L159+ signal coming out of Yorkshire, Northumberland, and the Scottish Borders.
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« Reply #252 on: September 13, 2010, 10:46:36 AM »

Neal,

Would you predict this kit 7348 for Rhea to be L159.2 and 464x=2c2g? He's my 2nd cousin from my maternal-grandmother's side.

It's hard to view but you can see it over at
http://garyr50.tripod.com/Rea_Surname_DNA_Project.htm

I loaded it into Ysearch as 9JHWM Rhea
The off-modals are: 389-1=14 458=16 448=18 (but 449=29) 464=15,15,17,18 576=19
570=16 CDY=39,40 442=11 557=17 446=14

Here the closest GD's over 67 markers from the R-L21 database. You'll see some
familiar names:

GD=4
CRYGZ Doty
GD=5
FWPM2 Baldwin
GD=6
Beattie PRSPT
Murphy UWA4U
Beattie 97XKS
Beatty T78VB
GD=7
Babie UAWPH
Beattie (42452)
McKee 4VDRN
McLaughlin 3JJR8

Here are some other Rhea/Ray's in the same cluster.
101960
53848 TENCV
N54022 NUFPT

Do you agree that Rhea 9JHWM looks like a good fit as an Irish Sea person? I
don't know if I'll be able to get an L159 or 464x test done. It was difficult to
get the 67 markers done.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #253 on: September 13, 2010, 02:34:11 PM »

Hey Mike,

Both the Rhea and Ray samples match the Irish Sea Modal, and I predict them both to be L159+.

What is their paternal ancestry?
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« Reply #254 on: September 13, 2010, 05:04:47 PM »

Hey Mike,
Both the Rhea and Ray samples match the Irish Sea Modal, and I predict them both to be L159+.
What is their paternal ancestry?
Rhea is pronounced the same as Ray.

The Rhea/Ray cluster seems pretty certain as the genealogical records match up and point back to the Reverend Joseph Rhea, born in 1715 in Tuaghboyne Parish, Co. Donegal, Ireland. He was educated in Glasgow, Scotland and was a minister.  Our family considers him as Scots-Irish. His Presbyterian congregation underwent economic bad times under the Ulster Plantation and tithes became even more difficult after the those mandated for the Anglican Church. He immigrated to the US to Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, then Taneytown, Maryland and finally to Tennessee where he was one of the founding fathers of Sullivan County, Tennessee.
http://www.angelfire.com/my/sallingerfamily/rheagenealogy/rhea3rd4thgenerations.htm

Two generations back from Rev. Joseph Rhea we have his story as passed to him from his father and grandfather but we don't really have an genealogical documents to back up anything.  The story is that Joseph's grandfather, Matthew Rhea, I (the first) was born as a Campbell in 1665 in Argyll Scotland.  We refer to this Matthew as Matthew "the Rebel" Campbell Rhea. He supported his uncle, Archibald, the 9th Earl of Campbell, in the Monmouth Rebellion. They were crushed badly by the forces of King James II of England. Matthew was imprisoned on the Isle of Man, bribed the jailor and escaped to Ireland where he changed his name to Rhea.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 05:12:12 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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NealtheRed
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« Reply #255 on: September 14, 2010, 09:40:48 PM »

Mike,

That is an interesting story. The DNA would support ancestry in Argyll, as many of the Scottish L159ers are Highlanders from the Western seaboard. Here is a list of Highlander L159ers or those that match the Irish Sea Modal:

MacKenzie L159+ (Fodderty, Ross and Cromarty)
Urquhart
Cameron L159+ (Ardnamurchan Peninsula)
MacSween (Skye)
Matheson (North Uist)
MacDonald L159+ (Skye)
MacDonald L159+ (Ayrshire)
MacPherson
Shaw/MacIntosh (Tordarroch)
MacKinlay (Mull)
Monroe L159+

Your Rhea family member also fits in, especially if he is of Scottish ancestry. L159 is found in the regions that still speak Scottish Gaelic with considerable frequency.

I looked up Matthew Rhea in Rootsweb, and it appears he was born in Kintyre.
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OConnor
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« Reply #256 on: September 15, 2010, 07:25:52 AM »

Maybe they are Del Riata Scots ?

The first sequence in the Munro Project is a 11/12 match to me.
I don't have a lot of faith in 391, which is where we differ.
I see the Munro Project has a good mix of 391=10 and 11.

http://bing.search.sympatico.ca/?q=monro%20dna%20project&mkt=en-ca&setLang=en-CA
« Last Edit: September 15, 2010, 07:33:00 AM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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NealtheRed
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« Reply #257 on: September 15, 2010, 07:08:31 PM »

Speaking of Munro and the other Scots from the Northern Highlands - namely MacKenzie and Urquhart - I was glad to see some representatives from those clans.

I think Gaelic culture was in Scotland long before Dal Riata, but it could be a part, definitely. One thing I never understood about the Scots Cluster... Is that supposed to be some "Dalriadic" signature?
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #258 on: September 16, 2010, 12:28:36 AM »

Speaking of Munro and the other Scots from the Northern Highlands - namely MacKenzie and Urquhart - I was glad to see some representatives from those clans.

I think Gaelic culture was in Scotland long before Dal Riata, but it could be a part, definitely. One thing I never understood about the Scots Cluster... Is that supposed to be some "Dalriadic" signature?
We had a big discussion on this over at DNA forums. It is very important to some that the Scots Cluster is connected to Dál Riata, but to tell you the truth I was finding more variance (potential age) and the edges of the cluster (GD wise) in England and in the Highlands of Scotland.  I found lower variance over in Ireland as you go west.  This all does not fit Dál Riata, a descendant of Conor (of Connacht) who came into old Strathclyde.

In my mind, the Scots Cluster might have already been in Scotland.

Apparently, EA's "Pictish" signature looks like the Scots Modal.  I probably shouldn't open my mouth on this....
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #259 on: September 16, 2010, 12:44:31 AM »

Speaking of Munro and the other Scots from the Northern Highlands - namely MacKenzie and Urquhart - I was glad to see some representatives from those clans.

I think Gaelic culture was in Scotland long before Dal Riata, but it could be a part, definitely. One thing I never understood about the Scots Cluster... Is that supposed to be some "Dalriadic" signature?
We had a big discussion on this over at DNA forums. It is very important to some that the Scots Cluster is connected to Dál Riata, but to tell you the truth I was finding more variance (potential age) and the edges of the cluster (GD wise) in England and in the Highlands of Scotland.  I found lower variance over in Ireland as you go west.  This all does not fit Dál Riata, a descendant of Conor (of Connacht) who came into old Strathclyde.
In my mind, the Scots Cluster might have already been in Scotland.
Apparently, EA's "Pictish" signature looks like the Scots Modal.  I probably shouldn't open my mouth on this....
Here is what Clan Donald has figured out...
http://dna-project.clan-donald-usa.org/
Quote from: ClanDonald
In February 2004, this project had announced another important Dalriadic ancestral genetic signature which we had identified as the signature of “Colla Uais, father of Dalriada.” The kingdom of Dalriada was the predecessor to the medieval kingdom of Scotland. This signature which begins 13-24-14-10-11-14-12-12-12-13-13-30-18, has subsequently been recognized as the modal (most frequent) signature within the Scottish highlands. It has variously been referred to as Dalriadic modal and Scots47. It is one of the largest R1b groups in Clan Donald.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #260 on: September 20, 2010, 10:17:03 PM »

Mike,

Our McKinley (McKeanlich) has returned CCGG on 464X. His MDKA is from the Isle of Mull, not too far from Kintyre and your Rhea (Campbell) relatives.

I would be tickled if your Rhea line is ultimately from Skipness, Argyll. That's prime Campbell territory right between MacDonald lands, and we have a number of MacDonald L159ers in the group too.



Neal
« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 10:17:51 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

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« Reply #261 on: September 21, 2010, 11:23:59 AM »

Our McKinley (McKeanlich) has returned CCGG on 464X. His MDKA is from the Isle of Mull, not too far from Kintyre and your Rhea (Campbell) relatives.
I would be tickled if your Rhea line is ultimately from Skipness, Argyll. That's prime Campbell territory right between MacDonald lands, and we have a number of MacDonald L159ers in the group too.
Yes, this is a bit strange since my understanding is the Campbell's and MacDonald's were bitter rivals.  Supposedly they are what feuding is all about.

It's also intriguing that you mentioned Skipness.  My family has the good fortune of marrying to a genealogist named Ed Foley.  He wrote 500 page on the Rhea's and helped me figure out how my lineage was connected even though it wasn't in the book. The following is not proven. This is from the Ed Foley book about the original Rhea, Matthew Campbell Rhea, I.
Quote from: Robert_Fremon
About Matthew, there was a Campbell of that name of about the right vintage who lived in Kintyre, a second son of Walter Campbell, Captain of Skipness and Provost of Campbelltown. In 1930, a lady (Mary Latham Norton)... wrote an article in the Clan Campbell journal.. visited Scotland and ascertained.. The Matthew of Skipness was indeed on the losing side of the Monmouth Rebellion, escaped to Ireland, changes his name...."
The above statement has both supporters and detractors.
Quote from: Ed_Foley
July 2, 1769 Archiabld, Earl of Argyll signed a sasine in factor of Matthew Campbell and Walter his father for a lifetime interest in the lands of Orgaig in the Barony of Skipness, parish of Kilcamonell.

Given the feuding, a MacDonald (L159.2+) Y DNA connection instead of a Campbell connection (or within a Campbell connection) is a bit ironic.   I guess I really don't know the clan history though.  Any readings on that?  I need to hone up before sharing the MacDonald Y DNA possibility with my cousins.  I'm not sure what they'd think.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2010, 11:30:20 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #262 on: September 21, 2010, 01:20:26 PM »

....
Babie UAWPH
Neal, in case you didn't have this...   Over on the BBC forum, the contact let everyone know that the surname is not the Y DNA's lineage and the Old World origin is not France.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #263 on: September 21, 2010, 10:45:11 PM »

Our McKinley (McKeanlich) has returned CCGG on 464X. His MDKA is from the Isle of Mull, not too far from Kintyre and your Rhea (Campbell) relatives.
I would be tickled if your Rhea line is ultimately from Skipness, Argyll. That's prime Campbell territory right between MacDonald lands, and we have a number of MacDonald L159ers in the group too.
Yes, this is a bit strange since my understanding is the Campbell's and MacDonald's were bitter rivals.  Supposedly they are what feuding is all about.

It's also intriguing that you mentioned Skipness.  My family has the good fortune of marrying to a genealogist named Ed Foley.  He wrote 500 page on the Rhea's and helped me figure out how my lineage was connected even though it wasn't in the book. The following is not proven. This is from the Ed Foley book about the original Rhea, Matthew Campbell Rhea, I.
Quote from: Robert_Fremon
About Matthew, there was a Campbell of that name of about the right vintage who lived in Kintyre, a second son of Walter Campbell, Captain of Skipness and Provost of Campbelltown. In 1930, a lady (Mary Latham Norton)... wrote an article in the Clan Campbell journal.. visited Scotland and ascertained.. The Matthew of Skipness was indeed on the losing side of the Monmouth Rebellion, escaped to Ireland, changes his name...."
The above statement has both supporters and detractors.
Quote from: Ed_Foley
July 2, 1769 Archiabld, Earl of Argyll signed a sasine in factor of Matthew Campbell and Walter his father for a lifetime interest in the lands of Orgaig in the Barony of Skipness, parish of Kilcamonell.

Given the feuding, a MacDonald (L159.2+) Y DNA connection instead of a Campbell connection (or within a Campbell connection) is a bit ironic.   I guess I really don't know the clan history though.  Any readings on that?  I need to hone up before sharing the MacDonald Y DNA possibility with my cousins.  I'm not sure what they'd think.
Mike,

Clan Donald has always been associated with their seat at Armadale on the Isle of Skye, but their lands were extensive in the Western Isles and Western Argyll. This put them at odds with Clan Campbell who held lands further inland and to the south. The DNA must be older than the breakup of the Gaelic tribes into different clans, but it also explains L159 in the Western Isles and is supporting evidence your Rhea family is from the same area.

There is another Campbell in the Campbell DNA Project that also matches the Irish Sea Modal. Another BBC member, a MacSween, is from Skye, so we are looking at a group of related men along Western Scotland. Skipness is actually near Knapdale, the site of Castle Sween.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #264 on: September 21, 2010, 10:46:24 PM »

....
Babie UAWPH
Neal, in case you didn't have this...   Over on the BBC forum, the contact let everyone know that the surname is not the Y DNA's lineage and the Old World origin is not France.

This is interesting. Perhaps we have another Scot or Irishman?
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #265 on: September 21, 2010, 11:17:08 PM »

There is another Campbell in the Campbell DNA Project that also matches the Irish Sea Modal. Another BBC member, a MacSween, is from Skye, so we are looking at a group of related men along Western Scotland. Skipness is actually near Knapdale, the site of Castle Sween.
Do you have the kit #s for these two guys?  I don't see them in the L159 project. Are either 464x=2c2g?
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #266 on: September 22, 2010, 08:10:24 PM »

There is another Campbell in the Campbell DNA Project that also matches the Irish Sea Modal. Another BBC member, a MacSween, is from Skye, so we are looking at a group of related men along Western Scotland. Skipness is actually near Knapdale, the site of Castle Sween.
Do you have the kit #s for these two guys?  I don't see them in the L159 project. Are either 464x=2c2g?
Hey Mike,

Check the Campbell DNA Project for the Campbell: kit #N61377

MacSween is in the 464X Project: kit #163430

Neither have tested for 464X, but I expect them both to be CCGG and L159+.


Neal
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« Reply #267 on: February 07, 2011, 10:43:58 AM »

Good news! L159.2 is official.

ISOGG has it listed downstream of L21 and labeled as "R1b1b2a1a2e7".
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

By default, a L159.2+ is also L21+ rather they tested for L21 or not.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #268 on: February 07, 2011, 01:10:08 PM »

Good news! L159.2 is official.

ISOGG has it listed downstream of L21 and labeled as "R1b1b2a1a2e7".
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

By default, a L159.2+ is also L21+ rather they tested for L21 or not.

Hey Mike,

Yeah, Kirsten Saxe sent me an e-mail this morning about it! May the haplogroup names get longer!


Neal
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OConnor
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« Reply #269 on: February 07, 2011, 05:58:15 PM »

Can we rule out R-L159.2 coming from Norway to Scotland and S/E Ireland ?

It's just that i see R-L159 in N/W Scotland, Isle of Man, S/E Ireland- Cork, Waterford, Dublin, and also Norway.

If R-L159.2's age is 1500 bp maybe it can fit ?



« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 06:06:03 PM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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« Reply #270 on: February 07, 2011, 10:49:58 PM »

Can we rule out R-L159.2 coming from Norway to Scotland and S/E Ireland ?
It's just that i see R-L159 in N/W Scotland, Isle of Man, S/E Ireland- Cork, Waterford, Dublin, and also Norway.
Are there some R-L159 guys in Norway?  If so, I don't see don't see any reason to rule out a "out of Norway" scenario. The testing rates in Norway are much, much lower than Ireland so you might want to mentally multiply any Norway findings you have.
If R-L159.2's age is 1500 bp maybe it can fit ?
That's definitely an appropriate age.  Just as a yardstick, if M222 is about 1600 ybp, which many think it is, then L159.2's mostly likely TMRCA might be about 1400 ybp, perhaps a hair younger.

The places you listed are related to Viking points of contact.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 10:51:35 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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NealtheRed
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« Reply #271 on: February 07, 2011, 11:32:06 PM »

Can we rule out R-L159.2 coming from Norway to Scotland and S/E Ireland ?
It's just that i see R-L159 in N/W Scotland, Isle of Man, S/E Ireland- Cork, Waterford, Dublin, and also Norway.
Are there some R-L159 guys in Norway?  If so, I don't see don't see any reason to rule out a "out of Norway" scenario. The testing rates in Norway are much, much lower than Ireland so you might want to mentally multiply any Norway findings you have.
If R-L159.2's age is 1500 bp maybe it can fit ?
That's definitely an appropriate age.  Just as a yardstick, if M222 is about 1600 ybp, which many think it is, then L159.2's mostly likely TMRCA might be about 1400 ybp, perhaps a hair younger.

The places you listed are related to Viking points of contact.

There are currently three Norwegian men, and one American of Norwegian ancestry in the project. Three out of four are L159.2+, with the latter CCGG and he has not tested for L159.2 (although I expect an L159+ result). It is hard to get in contact with some of these folks. There is another Norwegian and Dane (from Northern Denmark - Beaker?) who match the signature, but they have not returned any of my e-mails.

But besides the Norwegians, there are three men with German ancestry in the project - all ancestry from the Rhineland area. Is it just me, or is this looking a lot like the distribution of L21 on the continent? Some could have gone into Scandinavia, while others moved with Celtic tribes into Britain and Ireland.

I'm open to any explanations, even historical movements.

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« Reply #272 on: February 08, 2011, 06:10:04 PM »

There are currently three Norwegian men, and one American of Norwegian ancestry in the project. Three out of four are L159.2+, with the latter CCGG and he has not tested for L159.2 (although I expect an L159+ result).
....
But besides the Norwegians, there are three men with German ancestry in the project - all ancestry from the Rhineland area
I see these three guys from Norway. Who is the other?
125806    Duoos
N14161    Olle Olsson
N82019

I see this guy from Germany but where are the other L159+ Germany guys?
N47848   Adams

« Last Edit: February 08, 2011, 06:10:53 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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NealtheRed
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« Reply #273 on: February 08, 2011, 07:25:48 PM »

There are currently three Norwegian men, and one American of Norwegian ancestry in the project. Three out of four are L159.2+, with the latter CCGG and he has not tested for L159.2 (although I expect an L159+ result).
....
But besides the Norwegians, there are three men with German ancestry in the project - all ancestry from the Rhineland area
I see these three guys from Norway. Who is the other?
125806    Duoos
N14161    Olle Olsson
N82019

I see this guy from Germany but where are the other L159+ Germany guys?
N47848   Adams



The other Norwegian is Jan Sedeniussen. He got a conversion kit with FTDNA (was with SMGF), and is waiting on his first results. The third kit you mentioned is Haugen.

I believe Adams's ancestor died in Hanover, but is otherwise British. Rosenburg and Boston are in the L159 Result Pending category. Boston's MDKA is a Bastian from Lichtenberg, Germany, and Rosenburg's family is ultimately of German origin, but they do not know from where.

Probst is also L159+, but is in the 464X Project. His MDKA is from Hoffenheim in Baden-Wurttemberg.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



NealtheRed
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« Reply #274 on: February 08, 2011, 07:26:54 PM »

I forgot Schneider whose ancestor is from Lorraine. I count him as German since that area was ethnically German before WWII, I believe.
Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



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