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NealtheRed
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« Reply #225 on: June 10, 2010, 04:18:18 PM »

With the presence of Scandinavian L159.2+ (and 1 M222+), does this make it more likely for their origin on the continent before the L21s begin moving to the Isles in large numbers?  Or are these iron age and later movements to Scandinavia from the Isles?
It is still up in the air, but some interesting patterns are emerging:

- L159 is not an Ireland-wide cluster, but (for the most part) confined to the eastern portion of island.
- The trend in Great Britain is clustering along the western Scottish seaboard (including the Isle of Man), the English-Scottish border (from the Irish Sea to the North Sea), and Yorkshire through Norfolk

Other samples are scattered throughout Southern England, and a few in Wales. I am not sure about the Leinster samples, but many of the English and Scottish L159+ samples could be of Anglo-Scandinavian origin. Again, this is just a preliminary perusal of the data presented currently. This could change.

I know there is one lineage of M222 in Iceland (Thordarsson) and another in Norway. Considering M222's distribution in Ireland and Great Britain, I think it could have been carried to Iceland and Norway in the historical period - possibly by Norse-Gaels.

Or, these two clades could be old enough to have been in Scandinavia prior to major historical interactions in Great Britain.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2010, 04:19:11 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

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« Reply #226 on: June 10, 2010, 05:26:56 PM »

Thanks Neal. 

I just looked at the variance sum on Yahoo L21 for one the largest L159.2 varieties. Over 67 markers it is 8, which seems a little too young for a Bronze Age origin using a pedigree rate.  The overwhelming numbers in the Isles suggests an Isles origin, but the continent may just be undertested.  I agree, still up in the air.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #227 on: June 10, 2010, 05:45:59 PM »

No problem, Mike.

With regard to those samples on Yahoo, I do not believe any Scandinavian L159 is included. Also, there is a larger genetic distance between the Scandinavian samples I have seen than between the Isles samples.

I would like to perform cross-tabulations between populations, and use a measure of variability to compare variances between Isles folks and Scandinavian samples.

Is there bound to be any sampling bias or weight when calculating variance since most (over 90%) samples are of British extraction?
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OConnor
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« Reply #228 on: June 10, 2010, 05:53:49 PM »

weren't there one or two German surname Guys who are R-L159.2+
from the German /French border area ??
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #229 on: June 10, 2010, 06:21:11 PM »

weren't there one or two German surname Guys who are R-L159.2+
from the German /French border area ??

Yes, there are. Probst and Schneider are both CCGG and Schneider is L159+ as well. Schneider's MDKA is from Lorraine, and Probst's is from Baden-Wurttemburg. The latter is most likely L159+ too.

Another German, Rosenburg, matches every marker on the modal.

Here is how other continentals are faring:

- After an exhaustive search for French candidates, I found one sample - Agee from Nantes originally - that also fits perfectly into the L159 modal. We do have French surnames in the cluster, but most of them go back to Leinster due to "Norman" or Huguenot importations.

- I looked in the Iberian Peninsula Project, among other Spanish surname projects, and have not found any Iberian matches yet.

- To my surprise, I found the four Scandinavian samples (including Duoos) via Sorenson. I think this is just the nature of the database, more folks of Scandinavian ancestry in it. But this underscores the fact that Scandinavia is under-represented. A little digging will go a long way though.

Overall, there needs to be more attention garnered to higher haplotype resolution. There are too many folks who only have 12 or 25 markers tested.
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« Reply #230 on: June 10, 2010, 06:59:50 PM »

No problem, Mike.

With regard to those samples on Yahoo, I do not believe any Scandinavian L159 is included. Also, there is a larger genetic distance between the Scandinavian samples I have seen than between the Isles samples.

I would like to perform cross-tabulations between populations, and use a measure of variability to compare variances between Isles folks and Scandinavian samples.

Is there bound to be any sampling bias or weight when calculating variance since most (over 90%) samples are of British extraction?

I think the L21 variance can be misleading depending on what markers are used.  Anatole Klyosov has France higher and Tim Janzen has England highest.  The sample size imbalance between the Isles/colonials and the continent probably skews things as well.  In exactly how much and which direction, I'm not sure.  Most of the larger sample's members being calculated are not fully snp tested.  We can only exclude those few who have for now.
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« Reply #231 on: June 10, 2010, 07:09:05 PM »

No problem, Mike.

With regard to those samples on Yahoo, I do not believe any Scandinavian L159 is included. Also, there is a larger genetic distance between the Scandinavian samples I have seen than between the Isles samples.

I would like to perform cross-tabulations between populations, and use a measure of variability to compare variances between Isles folks and Scandinavian samples.

Is there bound to be any sampling bias or weight when calculating variance since most (over 90%) samples are of British extraction?

I think the L21 variance can be misleading depending on what markers are used.  Anatole Klyosov has France higher and Tim Janzen has England highest.  The sample size imbalance between the Isles/colonials and the continent probably skews things as well.  In exactly how much and which direction, I'm not sure.  Most of the larger sample's members being calculated are not fully snp tested.  We can only exclude those few who have for now.
I can't speak for Klyosov and Janzen and their TMRCA calculations.

As far variance, that is an objective mathematical term.  We also have a database of confirmed R-L21* people.   The sum of variance is higher in England than in Ireland or Scotland.  The variance is higher yet in France than England, period.  That's objective information.  This holds true whether summing across the first 25 or the first 67 markers.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2010, 07:09:48 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #232 on: June 10, 2010, 08:43:08 PM »

Thanks for clearing that up.  How many L21* status members are there from England and France?
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« Reply #233 on: June 11, 2010, 10:19:43 AM »

Thanks for clearing that up.  How many L21* status members are there from England and France?
Hopefully this matches up with RMS2.  I try to periodically scrape the R-L21Plus project data and merge it into the R-L21 haplotypes spreadsheets stored at the Yahoo Groups R-L21Plus FILES menu.

I've got 40 MDKA's from France and 154 from England in my current working version.  The version at Yahoo Groups is about 3 weeks behind.
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« Reply #234 on: June 11, 2010, 02:34:01 PM »

Alright, thanks Mike
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #235 on: June 20, 2010, 04:35:55 PM »

A Doyle just went L159+, judging from his post on the 464X Group.

This is interesting because the largest group of related Doyles in the FTDNA database matches the L159 modal. I believe Doyle is mostly localized to Leinster.
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OConnor
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« Reply #236 on: June 20, 2010, 07:59:18 PM »

"the name seems to have originated in the 8th or 9th centuries when the Norse Vikings were actively colonizing parts of Ireland, and also that the name is particularly found close to major centers of Viking establishments in the coastal parts of Leinster"

Maybe or maybe not?

http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/surname/index.cfm?fuseaction=History&Surname=doyle&UserID=
« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 08:26:09 PM by OConnor » Logged

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NealtheRed
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« Reply #237 on: June 20, 2010, 10:32:26 PM »

I will be the first to admit that I never knew the Doyle surname is naturally without the "O'" prefix. Usually Irish surnames have the O' or Mc preceding them.
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OConnor
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« Reply #238 on: June 21, 2010, 09:09:06 AM »

Neal the O and Mc supposedly meant O=Grandson of.. and Mc=Son of..
In Ireland's resurection many people added the prefix back onto their surname.
But some surnames are not "People" names. Some like Coyle which means "lives near/at the woods" would not have an "O"(Grandson of the Woods"?) attached.
That's my take on it.



Thanks Neal.  

I just looked at the variance sum on Yahoo L21 for one the largest L159.2 varieties. Over 67 markers it is 8, which seems a little too young for a Bronze Age origin using a pedigree rate.  The overwhelming numbers in the Isles suggests an Isles origin, but the continent may just be undertested.  I agree, still up in the air.

But my type of R-L159.2 CCCg is 47/67 with Neal..20 off.

I think more males need to be tested. Perhaps more with numbers closer to mine.
If we just test the ones closest to the CCgg people, perhaps the project results will be lopsided?


« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 09:26:07 AM by OConnor » Logged

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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #239 on: June 21, 2010, 09:18:51 AM »

Thanks Neal.  

I just looked at the variance sum on Yahoo L21 for one the largest L159.2 varieties. Over 67 markers it is 8, which seems a little too young for a Bronze Age origin using a pedigree rate.  The overwhelming numbers in the Isles suggests an Isles origin, but the continent may just be undertested.  I agree, still up in the air.
I think it would be wise to consider the L159.2 people as two groups (two probable separate subclades.)   ISOGG and FTDNA seem reluctant to consider R-L159.2 a single group with a recent common ancestor.   
The L159.2 folks with 464=2c2g and the Irish Sea/Leinster cluster haplotypes could probably be considered one group.     I'm not that familiar with everybody elses?  How many non Irish Sea/Leinster folks are there?  Do they have similar haplotypes?

But my type of R-L159.2 CCCg is 47/67 with Neal..20 off.

I think more males need to be tested. Perhaps more with numbers closer to mine.
If we just test the ones closest to the CCgg people, perhaps the project results will be lopsided?



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NealtheRed
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« Reply #240 on: June 21, 2010, 01:02:58 PM »


I think it would be wise to consider the L159.2 people as two groups (two probable separate subclades.)   ISOGG and FTDNA seem reluctant to consider R-L159.2 a single group with a recent common ancestor.   
The L159.2 folks with 464=2c2g and the Irish Sea/Leinster cluster haplotypes could probably be considered one group.     I'm not that familiar with everybody elses?  How many non Irish Sea/Leinster folks are there?  Do they have similar haplotypes?



This is my precise thinking. Those who match the L159 haplotype descend from a common ancestor. However, there are two L159+ samples (O'Connor and Manning) that do not share the distinctive, modal values. It is these who inherited the L159 mutation separately from the "Leinster" cluster.
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OConnor
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« Reply #241 on: June 21, 2010, 09:40:53 PM »

you don't know that "we" inherited L159 seperately.
It would be better for you to "assume"
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #242 on: June 21, 2010, 11:07:03 PM »

you don't know that "we" inherited L159 seperately.
It would be better for you to "assume"

What is clear is that those who are L159+ and in the Leinster cluster appear to descend from a common ancestor. How long ago? Your guess is as good as mine.
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« Reply #243 on: June 29, 2010, 08:03:59 AM »

Mr. Bradley returned L159+ today. His MDKA is from Yorkshire.
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« Reply #244 on: June 29, 2010, 11:44:14 AM »

Mr. Bradley returned L159+ today. His MDKA is from Yorkshire.
Is he 464=2c2g also?
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« Reply #245 on: June 29, 2010, 12:05:38 PM »

Bradley has not tested for 464X, but good chance he is CCGG. He fits in perfectly with the modal.

Weymouth recently tested CCGG, actually. He received his L159+ result not too long ago.
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« Reply #246 on: July 16, 2010, 03:37:48 PM »

Rankin returned L159+ today.

Speaking of Highlanders, the Rankins were associated with Clan MacLean - they were the bagpipers of the clan in Duart and Coll.
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« Reply #247 on: July 20, 2010, 06:16:59 PM »

Both Plummer (Essex) and Raese (ancestral Sykes, from Yorkshire) tested L159+ today.
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« Reply #248 on: July 22, 2010, 12:43:13 PM »

Both Plummer (Essex) and Raese (ancestral Sykes, from Yorkshire) tested L159+ today.
Do you have kit #s for Plummer, Raese and Rankin?
Are they in the L159 project?
Are they each 464x=2c2g?
Is Raese's MDKA's surname Sykes?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 12:43:24 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #249 on: July 22, 2010, 07:40:47 PM »

Both Plummer (Essex) and Raese (ancestral Sykes, from Yorkshire) tested L159+ today.
Do you have kit #s for Plummer, Raese and Rankin?
Are they in the L159 project?
Are they each 464x=2c2g?
Is Raese's MDKA's surname Sykes?

Plummer is kit 131768. He's in the R-L159 category on the Y-DNA Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 07:41:05 PM by rms2 » Logged

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