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NealtheRed
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« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2009, 01:46:30 PM »

Interesting. I checked out O'Higgins in the Dictionary of American Surnames, and apparently it means viking. Higgins derives from an Old Norse word.

Of course, that does not mean the DNA is viking, but I will say this about L159.2: the DNA aggregates along both coasts of the Irish Sea (mostly southwest Scotland in the eastern side). There are a number of names in the Leinster cluster associated with Scandinavia, Doyle and McLaughlin to name a few.

I honestly don't know how we can explain the cluster's spread, but it is smack in the middle of areas with foreign settlement.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


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OConnor
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« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2009, 04:23:37 PM »

I never looked at M222's str diversity.

My first impression after testing 159.2+ is that it could be fairly old.

I guess we'll have an idea when we see how far apart we have spread.

We'll see over time how many 159's are in Scandinavia....(any yet??)

Are there any M222's in Scandinavia with Viking names?


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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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NealtheRed
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« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2009, 05:20:33 PM »

I think L159.2 could be old as well. There seems to be a shared ancestry amongst the Byrnes, Kavanaughs and Kinsellas in the Irish Sea cluster, and there really is no way to explain those Scottish and English matches... unless it is due to Laigin settlement on the west coast of Britain.

That is documented in Post-Roman Britain, as well as the Ogham stones.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


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NealtheRed
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« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2009, 05:21:02 PM »

I believe M222 has been found in Norway, among other Continental European countries.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


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OConnor
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« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2009, 07:47:52 PM »

Interesting. I checked out O'Higgins in the Dictionary of American Surnames, and apparently it means viking. Higgins derives from an Old Norse word.

From
Irish times / Ancestors

O'Higgins
In one form, Higgins is an English name, from the medieval given name "Higgin", a diminutive of "Hicke", which was in turn a pet form of Richard. In Ireland, however, the vast majority of those bearing the name are of Gaelic Irish stock, Higgins being used as an anglicisation of the Irish Ó hUigín, from uiginn, meaning "Viking". The original Uigín from whom they claim descent was grandson to Niall of the Nine Hostages, the fifth-century King of Ireland who founded the powerful tribal grouping the Uí Neill, and they are therefore regarded as part of that grouping. Originally based in the midlands, part of the southern Uí Neill, they moved west over the centuries into the western province of Connacht, particularly Co. Sligo, settling at Dooghorne, Achonry and Ballynary. More than half of those bearing the surname today still live in Connacht where they achieved fame as poets and scholars and were particularly associated with the Royal House of the O'Conor Don, Kings of Connacht
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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OConnor
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« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2009, 08:24:18 PM »

Murphy
Murphy is the anglicised version of two Irish surnames, Ó Murchadha (in modern Irish Ó Murchú) and Mac Murchadha, both derived from the popular early Irish personal name Murchadh, meaning "sea-warrior".

Maybe Viking means Sea Warrior?

What strong surname would you have picked back then?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 08:40:37 PM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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NealtheRed
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« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2009, 05:40:10 PM »

You know, I find the early history of the Laigin interesting, especially if it corresponds with the Irish Sea type. The reason I say that is apparently one history of the Laigin holds that they are Gaulish warriors from Armorica, who come with Labraid to reclaim his kingdom.

There is one Gaston L159.2 who traces his ancestry to Northern Ireland, but says that his family were Huguenots before that. We may find some L159.2 in France.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



OConnor
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« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2009, 05:59:55 PM »

There is also mention of Old English. Though this does not explain any links to Scotland.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English_(Ireland)

M222 is found in Egland, and Scotland as well. Possibly Wales too?
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2009, 09:54:30 AM »

There is also mention of Old English. Though this does not explain any links to Scotland.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English_(Ireland)

M222 is found in Egland, and Scotland as well. Possibly Wales too?
The map on the M222 project shows one Welsh member, from Glamorgan.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c7/default.aspx?section=yresults

The Wales DNA project shows 5, out of a couple hundred participants.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/WalesDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults

It looks like M222 has a presence, but very minor one in Wales.  Perhaps Susan R (Wales Proj Admin) will add her opinion.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2009, 09:57:47 AM »

You know, I find the early history of the Laigin interesting, especially if it corresponds with the Irish Sea type. The reason I say that is apparently one history of the Laigin holds that they are Gaulish warriors from Armorica, who come with Labraid to reclaim his kingdom.

There is one Gaston L159.2 who traces his ancestry to Northern Ireland, but says that his family were Huguenots before that. We may find some L159.2 in France.
Wales was mentioned in another response.  I'd like to see a Wales Modal I 17-14-10 tested for L159.2.  That is across the Irish Sea from Leinster and this modal has a couple commonalities with the Leinster (Irish Sea, Lagin) Modal. 

By the way, I've seen references using Leinster, Lagin, Irish Sea to pretty much the same haplotype.  Is there is a difference between the three?
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2009, 12:02:00 PM »

You know, I find the early history of the Laigin interesting, especially if it corresponds with the Irish Sea type. The reason I say that is apparently one history of the Laigin holds that they are Gaulish warriors from Armorica, who come with Labraid to reclaim his kingdom.

There is one Gaston L159.2 who traces his ancestry to Northern Ireland, but says that his family were Huguenots before that. We may find some L159.2 in France.
Wales was mentioned in another response.  I'd like to see a Wales Modal I 17-14-10 tested for L159.2.  That is across the Irish Sea from Leinster and this modal has a couple commonalities with the Leinster (Irish Sea, Lagin) Modal. 

By the way, I've seen references using Leinster, Lagin, Irish Sea to pretty much the same haplotype.  Is there is a difference between the three?

I remember you saying that Wales modal has some similarities with the Irish Sea modal. There's no differentiation between the terms (Irish Sea, Leinster, Laigin), but I like to refer to it as Irish Sea since that is more inclusive than Leinster.

There is one Frenchman in the cluster - Baubie - who is CCGG(464x) and matches the modal perfectly. I'd like to see him test for L159.2; the group predicts him to be L159.2+. The other continental result in the cluster (and is CCGG) is a Probst whose ancestor is from Hoffenheim, Baden-Wurttemburg.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


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OConnor
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« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2009, 01:44:39 PM »

Many have tried...but few are L159.2+  :)
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #37 on: December 07, 2009, 02:02:09 PM »

.... There is one Frenchman in the cluster - Baubie - who is CCGG(464x) and matches the modal perfectly. I'd like to see him test for L159.2; the group predicts him to be L159.2+. The other continental result in the cluster (and is CCGG) is a Probst whose ancestor is from Hoffenheim, Baden-Wurttemburg.
Are you saying Probst is tested L159.2+ ?
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OConnor
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« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2009, 02:48:09 PM »

I think he ment in the cluster, but not yet tested for L159.2

It shouldn't be hard to tell if we could see a picture of Mr Probst.

L159.2 is the Good-Looking Mutation.  :))
« Last Edit: December 07, 2009, 02:53:29 PM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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NealtheRed
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« Reply #39 on: December 07, 2009, 04:11:08 PM »

I think he ment in the cluster, but not yet tested for L159.2

It shouldn't be hard to tell if we could see a picture of Mr Probst.

L159.2 is the Good-Looking Mutation.  :))

Right. Mr. Probst is CCGG but has not tested for L159.2. I would like to see him and Mr. Baubie (Babie) to test for it since both are in the Leinster cluster.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


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OConnor
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« Reply #40 on: December 09, 2009, 10:28:43 PM »

I just wanted to move this info over here.


I created  7UKVB   in  y-search putting L159 as the surname.

I entered the 47 common str's between me and Downing.

My results were showing Beatties(and varients)G/D of  1, 2, and 3 out of 47.
Other familiar names as well.

« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 10:30:29 PM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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NealtheRed
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« Reply #41 on: December 09, 2009, 10:41:31 PM »

I wonder if the trick to L159.2 is in those markers.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #42 on: December 10, 2009, 01:58:01 PM »

When do you L159+ folks think the L159+ mutation occurred for R-L21+ ?
The best I can interpret, the STR variances are such that the MRCA may have been about 1000 AD, but it could have been back to 0 AD.

Quote from: EarlBeaty
Here is my estimate of the order of some significant events: The time of all of them is unclear.

 R1b1b2 ancestor born
 L21+ ancestor born
 ccgg recipient born
 McConnell group split off
 L159.2+ ancestor born
 testees

We are considering the time of the ccgg even to be 1000 to 2000 year ago.  Estimates based on mutation rates are rather consistent in giving the 1000 year number. But we now have many surnames apparently in many places and, in view of the low population growth at that time, I conclude that the ccgg event must have been several centuries before surnames were adopted. I can see that possibly stretching the time to 2000 years ago. The L159+ event  looks to be not long after the ccgg event because almost all the men who are  ccgg are coming out L159+.

In the range of time in my schedule it is surprising to me how few STR mutations have occurred. I looks like most of the observed mutations are rather recent.
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OConnor
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« Reply #43 on: December 10, 2009, 03:32:34 PM »

(EDITED)

Mr Downing and I have a genetic distance of 21 at 67 markers.

I could guess one mutation every 3 generations and come up with 63 generations ago for Mr Downing and I to possibly share a common ancestor.

25 years per generation x 63 generations= about 1575 AD or so..( perhaps)

These are only my temporary guesses.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2009, 03:43:40 PM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Jdean
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« Reply #44 on: December 10, 2009, 03:38:07 PM »

When do you L159+ folks think the L159+ mutation occurred for R-L21+ ?
The best I can interpret, the STR variances are such that the MRCA may have been about 1000 AD, but it could have been back to 0 AD.

Quote from: EarlBeaty
Here is my estimate of the order of some significant events: The time of all of them is unclear.

 R1b1b2 ancestor born
 L21+ ancestor born
 ccgg recipient born
 McConnell group split off
 L159.2+ ancestor born
 testees

We are considering the time of the ccgg even to be 1000 to 2000 year ago.  Estimates based on mutation rates are rather consistent in giving the 1000 year number. But we now have many surnames apparently in many places and, in view of the low population growth at that time, I conclude that the ccgg event must have been several centuries before surnames were adopted. I can see that possibly stretching the time to 2000 years ago. The L159+ event  looks to be not long after the ccgg event because almost all the men who are  ccgg are coming out L159+.

In the range of time in my schedule it is surprising to me how few STR mutations have occurred. I looks like most of the observed mutations are rather recent.

Interesting how this last comment ties in with ideas being discussed on the Genealogy DNA mailing list.

Personally I have trouble with the notion that mutation rates could be effected by outside forces, but there appear to be quite a lot of people with disciplines outside of genetic DNA who have trouble with the time estimates currently favoured for the emergence of M269, Alan included.
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Jdean
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« Reply #45 on: December 10, 2009, 03:40:09 PM »

Mr Downing and I have a genetic distance of 21 at 67 markers.

I could guess one mutation every 3 generations and come up with 63 generations ago for Mr Downing and I to possibly share a common ancestor.

25 years per generation x 63 generations= about 1500 AD or so perhaps

These are only my guesses.

Although 25 yrs is a figure that is often used I believe 30 to 33yrs is more accurate
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #46 on: December 10, 2009, 06:00:31 PM »

I think the consensus in the Leinster group is that the DNA is at least 1000 years old.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2009, 06:00:44 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


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OConnor
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« Reply #47 on: December 10, 2009, 08:03:18 PM »

Perhaps we could say our MRCA would have lived before 1500 AD.
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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OConnor
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« Reply #48 on: December 10, 2009, 08:14:23 PM »

When do you L159+ folks think the L159+ mutation occurred for R-L21+ ?
The best I can interpret, the STR variances are such that the MRCA may have been about 1000 AD, but it could have been back to 0 AD.

Quote from: EarlBeaty
Here is my estimate of the order of some significant events: The time of all of them is unclear.

 R1b1b2 ancestor born
 L21+ ancestor born
 ccgg recipient born
 McConnell group split off
 L159.2+ ancestor born
 testees

We are considering the time of the ccgg even to be 1000 to 2000 year ago.  Estimates based on mutation rates are rather consistent in giving the 1000 year number. But we now have many surnames apparently in many places and, in view of the low population growth at that time, I conclude that the ccgg event must have been several centuries before surnames were adopted. I can see that possibly stretching the time to 2000 years ago. The L159+ event  looks to be not long after the ccgg event because almost all the men who are  ccgg are coming out L159+.

In the range of time in my schedule it is surprising to me how few STR mutations have occurred. I looks like most of the observed mutations are rather recent.

Interesting how this last comment ties in with ideas being discussed on the Genealogy DNA mailing list.

Personally I have trouble with the notion that mutation rates could be effected by outside forces, but there appear to be quite a lot of people with disciplines outside of genetic DNA who have trouble with the time estimates currently favoured for the emergence of M269, Alan included.


"The L159+ event  looks to be not long after the ccgg event because almost all the men who are  ccgg are coming out L159+."

I have cccg..so perhaps your ccgg happened after L159.2

Unless you feel my CCCG is a back-mutation from CCGG
« Last Edit: December 10, 2009, 08:15:59 PM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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NealtheRed
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« Reply #49 on: December 10, 2009, 08:42:39 PM »

I think that the CCGG came after L159.2.
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