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rms2
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« on: November 08, 2009, 01:34:48 PM »

This thread will constitute an on-going report on the recently initiated French recruiting and testing efforts of the R-L21 Plus Project. This post is an introductory overview of the results thus far.

I cannot and will not claim this as a truly scientific research project, but the testing turned out to be pretty much random testing of R1b1b2 men of French descent, most of whom did not, and still do not, have 67-marker haplotypes or prior SNP testing of any kind. The only recruit who looked pretty likely to be L21+ from the outset (based on matches in YSearch) was Grenier (Ysearch 4XHJC). The rest were a roll of the dice.

We paid for the L21 tests of most but not all of these men. A number of them paid for their own testing (I won't say which was which).

I am not claiming this was the only French testing going on during this time (from this past summer until now), but it is the only French testing to whose results I am privy. It was our research project, so to speak, and that's the only one I can report on, that is, on its results and no other's.

The R-L21 Project began recruiting men of French ancestry for testing this past July, thanks to generous donations from project members. Central to the effort, and one of its primary financial backers, was "alantrowelhands" (I'm not sure he wants me to use his real name, so his screen name here will have to do). Another person who deserves a lot of credit is Doug Miller, the Group Administrator of the French Heritage DNA Project, who helped get the word out to his project members.

Anyway, here are the results, which are actually better than I remembered.

N=24

L21+ (L21 Positive)= 14

L21- (L21 Negative)= 10

Percentages

L21+= 58%

L21-= 42%

I will go back through the list of test subjects, try to break things down by geographic region, and post that information here.

We still have a couple of French subjects awaiting L21 results in our project's "L21 Pending" category. I was going to wait for them but became impatient, so I am going ahead and starting this thread. Besides, we may continue testing men of French descent for quite some time to come. There is no sense in putting off a report on our progress for an indefinite period that may be of lengthy duration.
 
« Last Edit: November 08, 2009, 06:17:21 PM by rms2 » Logged

alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2009, 01:53:59 PM »

The most obvious observations are:

1. How much more valid blind testing is (even if by accident rather than design).

2. This shows that L21 is grossly underestimated in public databases, certainly French L21 is and probably elsewhere on the continent too.  Argiedudes chart based on public databases only put French L21 at 20%.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2009, 01:58:57 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
vtilroe
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« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2009, 08:42:55 PM »

Gaul - the largest Irish colony found to date.
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rms2
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« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2009, 12:33:27 PM »

Gaul - the largest Irish colony found to date.

Lol!

It's a pity some folks won't realize you were joking!
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rms2
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« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2009, 01:47:29 PM »

Okay, here's the promised geographic breakdown.

N=24

Total Numbers Tested Per Region

North Central = 1

Northwest = 13

Northeast = 4

Southwest = 1

Southeast = 1

France, exact origin unknown = 4


L21+ (L21 Positive)

North Central = 0

Northwest = 8 (I counted one in La Rochelle as in the Northwest)

Northeast = 3

Southwest = 1 (close to South Central)

Southeast = 0

France, exact origin unk = 2


L21- (L21 Negative)

North Central = 1

Northwest = 5

Northeast = 1 (Noidans-Le- Ferrous, very close to being East Central)

Southwest = 0

Southeast = 1

France, exact origin unk = 2


Here are the totals by region again, this time accompanied by percentages of L21+ and L21-.


N=24

Total Numbers Tested Per Region

North Central = 1  (L21+ = 0%; L21- =100%)

Northwest = 13  (L21+ =62%; L21- = 38%)

Northeast = 4  (L21+ = 75%; L21- = 25%)

Southwest = 1  (L21+ = 100%; L21- = 0%)

Southeast = 1  (L21+ = 0%; L21- = 100%)

France, exact origin unknown = 4 (L21+ = 50%; L21- = 50%)


Here are the results for Northern France versus Southern France.

Northern France

L21+ (L21 Positive) = 11 (61%)

L21- (L21 Negative) =  7  (39%)


Southern France

L21+ (L21 Positive) = 1 (50%)

L21- (L21 Negative) = 1 (50%)


I included among the "exact origin unknown" guys an L21+ who knows his ancestor came from somewhere in Northern France; he just does not know exactly where in Northern France.

Those are the figures.

Obviously, we had far more test subjects from Northern France, especially Northwestern France, than any other part of France. We only had two from Southern France, and one of those (the one I counted as southwestern) is really almost too far north for that classification (near the border of Limousin). I think this reflects the immigration pattern of the mostly North American pool of test subjects we had.



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« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2009, 02:09:05 PM »

I want to add something to my posts above. While I think L21 is very well represented in France, I don't think it is 60% of the R1b1b2 there. Perhaps it is 50-60% (or close) of the R1b1b2 in Northern France, but I think it may be closer to 30-40% of French R1b1b2 overall.

I say that because I have noticed many men in the French Heritage DNA Project with an "R1b1b2a1b" designation that may indicate they are R-P312* (L21-). Not all of them have joined the R-P312 and Subclades Project, so not all of them are on the R-P312* Map.

On the other hand, a green "R1b1b2a1b" designation can be deceptive, because it is impossible to tell whether or not the man bearing it has been tested for L21 (short of contacting him and asking). If he tested with FTDNA before L21 became a part of the Deep Clade-R test (late January of 2009), he could be untested for L21. If he tested L21+ with some other company, he could have a green "R1b1b2a1b" from FTDNA and yet already know he is L21+. Not all the guys who test L21+ join the R-L21 Plus Project, sadly.

Here are some examples of what I am talking about. There are two men in the French Heritage DNA Project whom I know are L21+, Hamon and Leprovost, and neither of them has the green "R1b1b2a1b5" of an FTDNA-tested L21+. Hamon has the green "R1b1b2a1b" that shows the extent of his FTDNA testing, but he tested L21+ (S145+) with Ethnoancestry. Leprovost still has a red "R1b1b2" but tested L21+ with 23andMe.

On the Y-DNA Results page of the R-P312 and Subclades Project I have whole categories of men who show a green "R1b1b2a1b" but who are untested for a number of SNPs. I have a fairly large category for men who are P312+, show a green, FTDNA-tested "R1b1b2a1b", yet need an L21 test.

« Last Edit: November 09, 2009, 02:10:55 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2009, 05:49:39 PM »

Someone from Quebec on another forum posted the following about the origins in France of colonials to North America:

"Most colons came from Normandie, Poitou, Perche, Anjou, Saintonge, Île-de-France, Aunis, in other words western, northwestern and central-north France. A small minority only came from Bretagne, and those who were Bretons came from the eastern, Romance-speaking part, as far as I know."

There then follows a long quote in French with percentages on the question, which I can copy and paste here if anyone wants.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2009, 07:01:31 PM »

Someone from Quebec on another forum posted the following about the origins in France of colonials to North America:

"Most colons came from Normandie, Poitou, Perche, Anjou, Saintonge, Île-de-France, Aunis, in other words western, northwestern and central-north France. A small minority only came from Bretagne, and those who were Bretons came from the eastern, Romance-speaking part, as far as I know."

There then follows a long quote in French with percentages on the question, which I can copy and paste here if anyone wants.

I have read other sources that totally agree that there is a big biase to those very areas in north American immigratoin.  One thing I would note is that the NW quarter of the France is a lot more than Brittany.   In fact very few are actually Bretons. The whole exercise was fascinating and the only regret is that the sample was skewed (unavoidably) to the north.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2009, 07:34:47 PM »

The breakdown certainly shows a lot of L21 in all areas of France where there has been a reasonable amount of testing.  There is no way so many hits would have occurred in such a modest sample if there is not a hell of a lot of L21 in much of France. 

The areas where there is not a lot of L21 on the map are the very areas where it proved impossible to get test subjects and few tests have taken place.  So, I do not think the French testing to date has ruled out there being a lot of L21 in any part of France. 
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rms2
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« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2009, 08:52:00 AM »

The breakdown certainly shows a lot of L21 in all areas of France where there has been a reasonable amount of testing.  There is no way so many hits would have occurred in such a modest sample if there is not a hell of a lot of L21 in much of France.  

The areas where there is not a lot of L21 on the map are the very areas where it proved impossible to get test subjects and few tests have taken place.  So, I do not think the French testing to date has ruled out there being a lot of L21 in any part of France.
 

Of course, I agree with you.

I went ahead and posted on this subject on Rootsweb last night, although I was a little hesitant. When we began this effort I looked on it as recruitment and not as a scientific study, so I did not keep meticulous records of who had how much testing or how many markers, etc. I can only speak to those things from memory.

Anyway, I am hoping the little bit of exposure we are getting here and on Rootsweb will inspire more men of French descent, and perhaps some other continentals, to order FTDNA's Deep Clade-R test in order to find out if they, too, are L21+.

If that happens in sufficient numbers, we could learn a lot.

I wanted to add a personal note, as well. When we began this thing, I was hoping we would pick up five or so new French R-L21* guys. With our first ten recruits, I was dreading the possibility that they would all be L21- and I was hoping at least two or three would turn out to be L21+. I did not want to be the Group Admin who presided over squandering the project's General Fund on negative results.

Of course the results exceeded all but my wildest hopes.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2009, 09:04:16 AM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2009, 12:29:26 AM »

....
I wanted to add a personal note, as well. When we began this thing, I was hoping we would pick up five or so new French R-L21* guys. With our first ten recruits, I was dreading the possibility that they would all be L21- and I was hoping at least two or three would turn out to be L21+. I did not want to be the Group Admin who presided over squandering the project's General Fund on negative results.

Of course the results exceeded all but my wildest hopes.
Great work!  You were right on target.   

Either way, it is important to know where L21+ is and where he isn't.  When the lines become clear and L21+ does drop off somewhere as we head east and south, that is worth the investment as well so there is no need to feel personal responsibility.
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« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2009, 09:16:51 AM »

RMS & Alan, I see your French L21 Testing report and analysis brought the "pure" Celtic guys (or maybe just guy) out of the woodwork.  I felt like arguing a couple of his points but thought ended up concluding there were too many to refute and obtuse enough that it wasn't worth it.  It seems as though some people have a hard time with what a "Celtic" is.  I like the simple litmus - did they speak a Celtic language?   An important point, though, is where/how/who was the Italic and Celtic split.

As we speak of Celtic speaking, what do you think of this concept?  I was really impressed with the significance of something Henri Hubert wrote.  He said something along the lines that the French language sounds like what you'd expect Celtic people speaking Latin to come up with.  I can easily recognize French but I have no idea what old Irish Gaelic nor Welsh nor Breton speech sounds like.    Does anyone else have an opinion on this or I was just overly influenced by an author's opinion?

Mike
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« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2009, 10:10:33 AM »

RMS & Alan, I see your French L21 Testing report and analysis brought the "pure" Celtic guys (or maybe just guy) out of the woodwork.  I felt like arguing a couple of his points but thought ended up concluding there were too many to refute and obtuse enough that it wasn't worth it.  It seems as though some people have a hard time with what a "Celtic" is.  I like the simple litmus - did they speak a Celtic language?   An important point, though, is where/how/who was the Italic and Celtic split.

As we speak of Celtic speaking, what do you think of this concept?  I was really impressed with the significance of something Henri Hubert wrote.  He said something along the lines that the French language sounds like what you'd expect Celtic people speaking Latin to come up with.  I can easily recognize French but I have no idea what old Irish Gaelic nor Welsh nor Breton speech sounds like.    Does anyone else have an opinion on this or I was just overly influenced by an author's opinion?

Mike

If you want to hear modern Welsh in action go here

www.s4c.co.uk

This is Wales welsh language station
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rms2
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« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2009, 09:32:28 PM »

If you want to hear modern Welsh in action go here

www.s4c.co.uk

This is Wales welsh language station

Very cool! Thanks for that!

I remember reading that J. R. R. Tolkien liked the Welsh language and based his idea for the Elvish tongue of Middle Earth on it. Now I can hear why.
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« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2009, 07:23:45 AM »


Very cool! Thanks for that!

I remember reading that J. R. R. Tolkien liked the Welsh language and based his idea for the Elvish tongue of Middle Earth on it. Now I can hear why.

When I posted the link they had a public debate you could view, the main one up at the moment is 'Pobol y Cwm', S4C's soup opera but the accents are quite soft to my mind.

If you click on the 'Rygbi' link at the bottom you will find videos with people using the throat clearing sound to all its glory, plus get to see what we like to do with a pig skin, now that's a cultural experience
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« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2009, 04:23:12 PM »

As someone who has visited Wales fairly often, I sometimes wonder if the English speaking mouth is physically capable of reproducing the sounds of Welsh.
For those who don't believe me, try fitting your mouth around these names of places in Wales: Llwchmynydd, Bwlchtocyn, Dwygyfylch, Cwmystwych and Pontrhydfendigaid.
Even having a Welsh great-grandmother is of no help to me.
Apolgies for contributing to the hijacking of this thread.
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« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2009, 07:30:36 PM »

There are no vowels in those words. Lol
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2009, 01:54:48 PM »

There are no vowels in those words. Lol

lol Its not as bad as it looks. Y is pronounced like an i. 
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« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2009, 03:05:06 PM »

There are no vowels in those words. Lol

lol Its not as bad as it looks. Y is pronounced like an i. 
And I believe w is pronounced like a u. But I still think it's as bad as it looks.
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« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2009, 03:52:04 PM »

dd are pronounced as a 'thu', and f as 'vu'. ff are pronounced as f.

I've often wondered if 'of' and 'off' may have Welsh entomology, but it's not mentioned in the OED, Penguin is though, meaning White Head oddly enough.
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« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2009, 10:54:08 AM »

Gaul - the largest Irish colony found to date.
This mis-perception (and I know you are joking) is real and seems to be the defacto point of view for a beginner.   I just ran into a guy on another forum who was just getting started.  I don't think his view was tainted by any particular opposing advocate though.

Apparently the logic is that a beginner thinks that R1b has been in Europe since Paleothic times becauses that is what you are likely to get from the general media and groups like National Genographic.   Then you add a visual look at the maps with show such high L21+ test results and the natural conclusion is the Isles must be the place of origin.
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« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2009, 02:00:51 PM »

To be fair the idea that most Western Europeans are descended from one man living about 4500 yrs ago (ish), who probably didn't even live there, is not one of the most obvious answers.

What I don't understand though is the people who disbelieve the above scenario are also the ones who are most likely to inform you that the entire population of England was replaced by a small band of Germans about 1500 yrs ago.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2009, 02:07:03 PM by Jdean » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2009, 02:35:24 PM »

I do find the 4500 years ago date very hard to accept in terms of the archaeology.  I know someone has noted a population drop around the Rhine mouth c. 5000-3000BC) but who knows, that could simply be due to alterations in the river of flood patterns.  I certainly am not aware of any major population fall in the isles at that time.  Indeed, the middle of that is the period where the Neolithic arrives and expands in the isles and there is a population explosion. 
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« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2009, 02:36:26 PM »

As for the out of the isles school of thought, it is clear that their numbers have dropped hugely over the last year.  It used to be common but its rarely heard at all.  Even some of its biggest proponents have recently given it up in light of the French results.  

One simplistic arguement goes along the lines of if its OK to see L21 go one way then why not the other way.  Simply, every period in isles prehistory has seen cultures and economic advances enter the isles that are clearly dated hundreds and even thousands of years earlier on the continent.  There is almost no evidence for the reverse. You name it: the first modern humans, farming, pottery, copper, Indo-European languages, Iron etc has all spread in a general SE to NW trajectory.  Like it or not, us people with isles ancestors often recieved the latest changes long after they had appeared in the SE and frequenly even long after they had first appeared in mainland western Europe.  The best the isles can claim was a major role in the idea of alloying tin to the copper, almost certainly due to the supplies of tin in Cornwall.  However, there is no evidence of major cultural or economic advances originating in the isles.  The spread of cultural/material/economic changes are (other than DNA - which has no accepted dating) the only possibly dateable proxy for human movements that we have and they all point to movement to, not from, the isles.  Generally speaking the closest cultural similarities between the isles and the continent are with the area between the NW of France and the Rhine.  This is also the area with the greatest resemblance to the isles in terms of y-DNA. I have no doubt that this is not a coincidence.  
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2009, 05:54:27 PM »

To be fair the idea that most Western Europeans are descended from one man living about 4500 yrs ago (ish), who probably didn't even live there, is not one of the most obvious answers.

What I don't understand though is the people who disbelieve the above scenario are also the ones who are most likely to inform you that the entire population of England was replaced by a small band of Germans about 1500 yrs ago.

If you refer to the first M269 man, the estimates I have seen are from 4,000 to 8,000 ybp.

As for your other contention, I don't think there are many who believe the entire population of England was replaced by Germans. However it is incorrect to characterize the Anglo-Saxons as a small band. Their migration probably continued over two centuries. It's a bit like saying the entire population of North America couldn't have been replaced by a small band of Europeans 500 years ago.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2009, 05:58:31 PM by GoldenHind » Logged
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