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Author Topic: L21: L159.2 and L69.4 parallel SNPs  (Read 5879 times)
vtilroe
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« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2009, 03:38:52 PM »

[...] Durall sounds French.

The World Names Profiler shows the following stats for DURALL:

Country   FPM

SPAIN   3.77
UNITED STATES   3.08
CANADA   0.23
UNITED KINGDOM   0.07

The Spanish region is limited to Cataluña.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2009, 03:39:44 PM by vtilroe » Logged

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secherbernard
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« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2009, 07:35:46 AM »

I received an answer from Christopher Durall. He confirmed that he is L21+ L69+, and that Family rumors state his line is "of French descent" but he has absolutely no proof.

Bernard
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« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2009, 09:33:19 AM »

I received an interesting mail from Thomas Krahn about L159.2 and L69.4 SNPs:
Quote
Technically the L159 test also reads the L69 allele because it is only
2bp next to it.
The order for the L69.4 marker only needs to be implemented into the
order system which gets increasingly difficult at such flipflop markers.
Maybe we should separate tests like this into a haplogroup independent
curiosity panel.
Those FTDNA customers who have a L159(.2) result can simply send me an
e-mail and ask for their L69 status for now. Please note your kit # in your request so
that it doesn't take much time to look it up.
So anybody who have been tested L21+ L159- have just to send an email to Thomas Krahn with kit number, to know if he is L69+.
For those who have already tested for L159, it is free (thanks Thomas).
Bernard
I notice the R-L21* downstream SNP package doesn't include L69.  Do you think if you order the package you can still get a read on L69 as well?
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secherbernard
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« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2009, 11:03:39 AM »

I notice the R-L21* downstream SNP package doesn't include L69.  Do you think if you order the package you can still get a read on L69 as well?
I told Thomas about this point. He answered me that L159 test gives also L69 result. But I am not sure that L69 result is explicitly given. Until now, the person have to send an email to Thomas to have the L69 result after a L159 test.

Bernard
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YDNA: R-DF13+ L69+ DYS464X: cccc.3
mtDNA: U6a7a1
mtDNA of my father: U5a2c
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Ysearch of my maternal uncle: CEC59

vtilroe
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« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2009, 12:03:00 AM »

Because of the close association between L159 and L69, it would make sense (to me) to offer them as a 2-for-1 deal.  Evaluating/scoring both at the same time would just take a few seconds extra.
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secherbernard
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« Reply #30 on: December 03, 2009, 04:29:11 AM »

Because of the close association between L159 and L69, it would make sense (to me) to offer them as a 2-for-1 deal.  Evaluating/scoring both at the same time would just take a few seconds extra.
I am agree with you, it would be better if FTDNA test both L159.2 and L69.4 together and give systematically the two results.

Bernard
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YDNA: R-DF13+ L69+ DYS464X: cccc.3
mtDNA: U6a7a1
mtDNA of my father: U5a2c
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« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2009, 11:45:51 AM »

If you are L159.2+ then you are L69.4-

If you are L159.2- you can email  Dr Krahn at ftdna and ask for your L69.4 result.

That is my understanding

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secherbernard
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« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2009, 04:53:34 AM »

If you are L159.2+ then you are L69.4-

If you are L159.2- you can email  Dr Krahn at ftdna and ask for your L69.4 result.

That is my understanding
Yes. It would be better if FTDNA gives both L159.2 and L69.4 results without to have to send an email to Thomas Krahn.

Bernard
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Ysearch of my maternal uncle: CEC59

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« Reply #33 on: December 17, 2009, 11:11:36 AM »

I've ordered the whole L21 downstream package but I first queried about why L69.4 wasn't included.    The net of it is that even though L159 is very close to L69 and there is some kind of relationship, they felt a lot safer about the stability of L159 as an SNP (which means it could be considered a Unique Event (UEP.)   Apparently L69+ appears in multiple other haplogroups, not just one other like L159.

I still think L69+ is useful, perhaps similar in situation to the unusual 464x=2c2g.
If you are L159.2+ then you are L69.4-
If you are L159.2- you can email  Dr Krahn at ftdna and ask for your L69.4 result.
That is my understanding
Yes. It would be better if FTDNA gives both L159.2 and L69.4 results without to have to send an email to Thomas Krahn.
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secherbernard
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« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2009, 06:52:09 AM »

I've ordered the whole L21 downstream package but I first queried about why L69.4 wasn't included.    The net of it is that even though L159 is very close to L69 and there is some kind of relationship, they felt a lot safer about the stability of L159 as an SNP (which means it could be considered a Unique Event (UEP.)   Apparently L69+ appears in multiple other haplogroups, not just one other like L159.

I still think L69+ is useful, perhaps similar in situation to the unusual 464x=2c2g.
I guess that L159.2 appears twice, in I and R haplogroups, and that L69.4 appears four times in I, R and others haplogroups.

Bernard
« Last Edit: December 18, 2009, 06:53:25 AM by secherbernard » Logged

YDNA: R-DF13+ L69+ DYS464X: cccc.3
mtDNA: U6a7a1
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Ysearch of my maternal uncle: CEC59

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« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2009, 02:21:42 PM »

I've ordered the whole L21 downstream package but I first queried about why L69.4 wasn't included.    The net of it is that even though L159 is very close to L69 and there is some kind of relationship, they felt a lot safer about the stability of L159 as an SNP (which means it could be considered a Unique Event (UEP.)   Apparently L69+ appears in multiple other haplogroups, not just one other like L159.
I still think L69+ is useful, perhaps similar in situation to the unusual 464x=2c2g.
I guess that L159.2 appears twice, in I and R haplogroups, and that L69.4 appears four times in I, R and others haplogroups.
I don't think the Durrall/Secher MRCA is very recent. If L69+ happened before the Secher/Durall MRCA I think it happened a long time ago.

Go to the Yahoo Group for R-L21 and go to the "Files" section to download the Ht spreadsheet.
http://tech.groups.y...up/RL21Project/

Go to the column heading for column AZ "New SNP". Click on L69 and Secher and Durall pop up. Then scroll to the right to the slow to fast off-modal columns.

In slow to medium order:
Secher is off-modal at 594, 393, 448, 385b and 447.
Durall is on-modal with WAMH on all of those, but is off-modal at 438, YCAIIb where Secher is not.

Durall and Secher match no off-modal markers of FTDNA's slowest 50. That's too many slower markers not matching to be of recent connection.

There are two ways to look at this, I think:
1) Good news for L69.4! It is an older sub-clade of R-L21* that might have a lot of descendants
2) Bad news for L69.4. A second parallel mutation occurred within L21+... so it is really L69.4a and L69.4b
« Last Edit: December 18, 2009, 02:22:09 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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Jdean
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« Reply #36 on: December 19, 2009, 06:37:07 AM »

Durall and Secher match no off-modal markers of FTDNA's slowest 50. That's too many slower markers not matching to be of recent connection.

There are two ways to look at this, I think:
1) Good news for L69.4! It is an older sub-clade of R-L21* that might have a lot of descendants
2) Bad news for L69.4. A second parallel mutation occurred within L21+... so it is really L69.4a and L69.4b

Certainly a comparison of Bernard's STR values with Durall's doesn’t look very promising, any idea if Durell has done the 464x test, or is thinking of it, Bernard's cccc result is quit distinctive isn't it?
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secherbernard
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« Reply #37 on: December 19, 2009, 07:06:35 AM »

I don't think the Durrall/Secher MRCA is very recent. If L69+ happened before the Secher/Durall MRCA I think it happened a long time ago.

Go to the Yahoo Group for R-L21 and go to the "Files" section to download the Ht spreadsheet.
http://tech.groups.y...up/RL21Project/

Go to the column heading for column AZ "New SNP". Click on L69 and Secher and Durall pop up. Then scroll to the right to the slow to fast off-modal columns.

In slow to medium order:
Secher is off-modal at 594, 393, 448, 385b and 447.
Durall is on-modal with WAMH on all of those, but is off-modal at 438, YCAIIb where Secher is not.

Durall and Secher match no off-modal markers of FTDNA's slowest 50. That's too many slower markers not matching to be of recent connection.

There are two ways to look at this, I think:
1) Good news for L69.4! It is an older sub-clade of R-L21* that might have a lot of descendants
2) Bad news for L69.4. A second parallel mutation occurred within L21+... so it is really L69.4a and L69.4b
Using Mc Gee utilities, TMRCA of Secher and Durall is about 2.000 years ago.

Bernard
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secherbernard
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« Reply #38 on: December 19, 2009, 07:07:58 AM »

Certainly a comparison of Bernard's STR values with Durall's doesn’t look very promising, any idea if Durell has done the 464x test, or is thinking of it, Bernard's cccc result is quit distinctive isn't it?
Durall has not tested DYS464X.

Bernard
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« Reply #39 on: December 19, 2009, 11:18:23 AM »

Durall and Secher match no off-modal markers of FTDNA's slowest 50. That's too many slower markers not matching to be of recent connection.

There are two ways to look at this, I think:
1) Good news for L69.4! It is an older sub-clade of R-L21* that might have a lot of descendants
2) Bad news for L69.4. A second parallel mutation occurred within L21+... so it is really L69.4a and L69.4b

Certainly a comparison of Bernard's STR values with Durall's doesn’t look very promising, any idea if Durell has done the 464x test, or is thinking of it, Bernard's cccc result is quit distinctive isn't it?
I think it is promising because the older the SNP event the more likely we'll have more descendants out there...  unless of course it is a parallel mutation within L21+.
I agree that looking for 464x with 4c might be useful.  Perhaps Kirsten S, the 464x admin, knows what is out there.
My caution on 464x it is probably less stable that L69. Maybe probably isn't a strong enough word.
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« Reply #40 on: December 24, 2009, 07:49:28 PM »

Certainly a comparison of Bernard's STR values with Durall's doesn’t look very promising, any idea if Durell has done the 464x test, or is thinking of it, Bernard's cccc result is quit distinctive isn't it?
Durall has not tested DYS464X.
My R-L21 downstream package came back all negatives.  I sent a note to Dr. Krahn and he quickly responded.

I'm L69.4- along with the negatives for everything else.   FYI, I'm 3c1g at 464x.

You can look for the L69- folks on the R-L21 yahoo group "Files" worksheet.  Just go to the "Downstream SNP's" column heading and do an autofilter custom selection for "contains" "L69-".  There is a button for quickly finding the L69+ people, but you already know who you two are.
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chuckk1939
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« Reply #41 on: December 26, 2009, 11:27:37 AM »

My R-L21 downstream package came back all negatives.  I sent a note to Dr. Krahn and he quickly responded.

My L21 test results are also negative for everything.  How do I contact Dr. Krahn about L69 results?

Thanks.
CJK
ysearch: CE9RJ
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secherbernard
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« Reply #42 on: December 26, 2009, 01:32:06 PM »

My L21 test results are also negative for everything.  How do I contact Dr. Krahn about L69 results?

Thanks.
CJK
ysearch: CE9RJ
That's the email address of Dr Krahn: t h o m a s @ f a m i l y t r e e d n a . c o m

Bernard
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mtDNA of my father: U5a2c
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Ysearch and Mitosearch: UE9BU
Ysearch of my maternal uncle: CEC59

chuckk1939
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« Reply #43 on: January 03, 2010, 07:03:11 PM »

Bernard: 
Thanks for Dr. Krahn's contact information.  He has notified me that I am L69 ancestral (negative), so all of my tests on the L21 panel were negative.

CJK
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« Reply #44 on: January 03, 2010, 09:30:51 PM »

I am  L159.2+
I am 47/67 or more with other L159.2 people .
I have cccg

There must be some R-L159+ people in between

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« Reply #45 on: January 03, 2010, 10:33:50 PM »

There are a few in between you and the rest as can be seen on the SplitsTree graph.   You are counterclockwise to the Leinster modal.   Perhaps it has been updated, this is from May, 2009. 

http://vince.tilroe.ca/P312/L21_2009_05_18.png
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« Reply #46 on: January 04, 2010, 11:30:16 AM »

I have only tested possitive to L159.2 this fall.
It has not been updated since May 09.

So the Leinster Model with ccgg should not be the R-L159.2 model.

We need more people testing.





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« Reply #47 on: January 04, 2010, 10:49:53 PM »

I have only tested possitive to L159.2 this fall.
It has not been updated since May 09.
So the Leinster Model with ccgg should not be the R-L159.2 model.
We need more people testing.
I would say you might want to get a representative of a test...  ahh, no use going there. LOL.  Besides, the card has already been played.

You are correct, though, the Leinster Modal is outmoded for L159.2+.  For example, I thought 448=18 was a key but for L159.2 it is not. No one marker seems to "always" be right in looking for L159+. The most consistent off-modal thing I can see is that no L159+ person has a CDYa or b value below WAMH. Only one has a WAMH value on either CDYa or b.  Most have CDYa of 2 up to 5 over WAMH.  

Since you are an outlier from Leinster, perhaps your vicinity is where we should look for non-Leinster L159+.  The following is a list of people who are a GD of 15 or less from MPZR9 O'Connor  that are L21* that have not tested for L159:
U6MKS - MacPherson - Scotland, Inverness
MPZR9 - O'Connor
VA34K - Egan / Brandt - Wales
55HKE - Griffith - Wales, Cardiganshire, Llandyssil
GDQ6F - McGregor/Callum - Scotland, Keith
NZCX5 - Emmons - England
GTTS6 - Eriksson - Finland, Lappfjärd
N21843 - Kennedy
UR8TW - Tiernan - Ireland, Dublin
Z4XH2 - Phillips  

These guys may all be L159.2- but it is one place to look.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2010, 11:53:53 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #48 on: January 05, 2010, 04:26:00 PM »

Including some Beatties..our most common 46 markers so far are in y-search  ZUKVB

Somewhere in those numbers there is an indication of possible L159
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M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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« Reply #49 on: January 24, 2010, 11:25:06 AM »

I've ordered the whole L21 downstream package but I first queried about why L69.4 wasn't included.    The net of it is that even though L159 is very close to L69 and there is some kind of relationship, they felt a lot safer about the stability of L159 as an SNP (which means it could be considered a Unique Event (UEP.)   Apparently L69+ appears in multiple other haplogroups, not just one other like L159.

I still think L69+ is useful, perhaps similar in situation to the unusual 464x=2c2g.
I guess that L159.2 appears twice, in I and R haplogroups, and that L69.4 appears four times in I, R and others haplogroups.

Bernard
Bernard,
You might check out this person and this group.
On dna-forums under "For R1b-L21+ Folks: What is your DYS 464x?", the following guy said he was L69.4+.  He is contemplating a 464x test.

143742 / 5729F - McGuire - Ireland N., Co. Fermanuagh, Enniskillen

He fits into the 11-13 Combo group as what I call 11-13 A-2-M.  I think they are a pretty strong cluster.  I don't think their haplotype looks anything like yours and I am going on McGuire's post as far as his L69.4 status, but here is the cluster.

WBNA4 - Belsher - England, Northants Co, Guilsborough
GBU3A - MaGuire - Ireland, Co. Cavan, Butlers Bridge
G2K6P - McCown - Ireland N.
5729F - McGuire - Ireland N., Co. Fermanuagh, Enniskillen
NTJBU - McMahon
7WX3X - O'Donoughue - Ireland
ftdna 142902 - McMahon - Ireland, Ulster
Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
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