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Author Topic: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul  (Read 3727 times)
rms2
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« on: November 01, 2009, 11:59:58 AM »

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Gaul as a whole consists of three separate parts; one is inhabited by the Belgae, another by the Aquitani, and the third by the people we call Gauls, though in their own language they are called Celts. In language, customs, and laws these three peoples are quite distinct. The Celts are separated from the Aquitani by the river Garonne and from the Belgae by the Marne and the Seine. (Julius Caesar, De Bello Gallico, 1.1)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_Gallia_Tribes_Towns.png (Gaul according to Caesar and the Romans)

http://www.cruise-in-france.com/map-rivers-france.php (A nice clear map of the major rivers of France, with just one problem: it leaves out the Marne! That is taken care of in the map below.)

http://www.mapsofworld.com/france/france-river-map.html

For R-L21* in Gaul (France) see:

http://tinyurl.com/yh7qjty

For R-P312* in Gaul (France) see:

http://tinyurl.com/yl89pco

For R-U152 (and subclades) in Gaul (France), see:

http://tinyurl.com/yju6gp3

For R-U106 (and subclades) in Gaul (France), see (scroll down to the map and click on "All Group Members"):

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/U106/default.aspx?section=yresults

For R-M153 in Gaul (France), see (scroll down to the map and click on "All Group Members):

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-M153_The_Basque_Marker/default.aspx?section=yresults

Unfortunately no map exists for R-SRY2627 that I could find, and that is a problem, because R-SRY2627 is fairly significant in France.

There are limitations to the subclade maps above. Not all members of the subclades named are listed on the maps because not every member of each subclade has joined its respective project. Still, the maps are fairly representative of the distribution of those subclades, at least as far as they can be, based on results of testing by genetic genealogy testing companies, especially Family Tree DNA.

That's enough for a lead-in post, I guess.

Comments?
« Last Edit: November 01, 2009, 12:03:34 PM by rms2 » Logged

Mike Walsh
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« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2009, 12:10:35 PM »

Perhaps Argiedude can chime in on SRY2627+.  He has some data on it from his Ht15 analysis and his breakdown of France.
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rms2
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« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2009, 12:20:27 PM »

Perhaps Argiedude can chime in on SRY2627+.  He has some data on it from his Ht15 analysis and his breakdown of France.

Did you notice for R-L21*, R-U152 (and subclades - the mapmaker did not make any distinctions), and R-U106 (and subclades) the preponderance of results in NW France?

It seems to me the North American immigration pattern is affecting results for all those clades, and NE France is under represented all the way 'round.

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Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen
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« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2009, 12:26:10 PM »

“There are limitations to the subclade maps above.”

No kidding, In my opinion, Reliance on this R-U152 map is foolish.

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rms2
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« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2009, 12:31:59 PM »

“There are limitations to the subclade maps above.”

No kidding, In my opinion, Reliance on this R-U152 map is foolish.

For France I think it is pretty good. I know you have a dispute with the mapmaker about the British Isles and especially Ireland, but I don't think he has neglected France, and that's the subject of this thread. (And let's please keep that dispute out of this thread; neither it nor this thread would be helped by airing it further here.)

My R-L21* Map, for example, leaves out the British Isles altogether, which I keep track of on a separate map, and the author of the R-U152 Map has done the same thing, so I am not using the data you dispute (unless you're disputing his continental stuff, as well).
« Last Edit: November 01, 2009, 12:36:55 PM by rms2 » Logged

Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen
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« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2009, 12:50:46 PM »

“but I don't think he has neglected France,”


I do not trust anything done by him for accuracy. If you wish to trust the accuracy of his maps that is your right. I will no longer comment on the issue.
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secherbernard
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« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2009, 01:33:59 PM »

I think it is interesting to compare R-L21 continental map from Rich: http://tinyurl.com/yh7qjty with continental bell becker map from Richard Harrison 's book: "L'Age du cuivre, la civilisation du vase campaniforme" (in English: "Beaker Folk: Copper Age Archaeology in Western Europe"), except for Iberia: http://tinyurl.com/ycy8dhg

Bernard
« Last Edit: November 01, 2009, 01:58:51 PM by secherbernard » Logged

YDNA: R-DF13+ L69+ DYS464X: cccc.3
mtDNA: U6a7a1
mtDNA of my father: U5a2c
YDNA of my maternal uncle: I1*
Ysearch and Mitosearch: UE9BU
Ysearch of my maternal uncle: CEC59

rms2
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« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2009, 06:27:34 PM »

I think it is interesting to compare R-L21 continental map from Rich: http://tinyurl.com/yh7qjty with continental bell becker map from Richard Harrison 's book: "L'Age du cuivre, la civilisation du vase campaniforme" (in English: "Beaker Folk: Copper Age Archaeology in Western Europe"), except for Iberia: http://tinyurl.com/ycy8dhg

Bernard


That is interesting. I believe there are differences between the Bell Beaker people of Iberia and their artifacts on the one hand and the Beaker Folk of France, the Rhineland and Britain and their artifacts on the other.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2009, 06:54:03 PM by rms2 » Logged

argiedude
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« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2009, 09:35:44 PM »

“but I don't think he has neglected France,”


I do not trust anything done by him for accuracy. If you wish to trust the accuracy of his maps that is your right. I will no longer comment on the issue.


Can you just clarify one thing? Are you saying this regarding my maps?
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2009, 10:35:22 PM »

“but I don't think he has neglected France,”


I do not trust anything done by him for accuracy. If you wish to trust the accuracy of his maps that is your right. I will no longer comment on the issue.


Can you just clarify one thing? Are you saying this regarding my maps?
No, I believe he refers to the person who maintains the U152 map.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2009, 10:44:06 PM »

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Gaul as a whole consists of three separate parts; one is inhabited by the Belgae, another by the Aquitani, and the third by the people we call Gauls, though in their own language they are called Celts. In language, customs, and laws these three peoples are quite distinct. The Celts are separated from the Aquitani by the river Garonne and from the Belgae by the Marne and the Seine. (Julius Caesar, De Bello Gallico, 1.1)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_Gallia_Tribes_Towns.png (Gaul according to Caesar and the Romans)

http://www.cruise-in-france.com/map-rivers-france.php (A nice clear map of the major rivers of France, with just one problem: it leaves out the Marne! That is taken care of in the map below.)

http://www.mapsofworld.com/france/france-river-map.html

For R-L21* in Gaul (France) see:

http://tinyurl.com/yh7qjty

For R-P312* in Gaul (France) see:

http://tinyurl.com/yl89pco

For R-U152 (and subclades) in Gaul (France), see:

http://tinyurl.com/yju6gp3

For R-U106 (and subclades) in Gaul (France), see (scroll down to the map and click on "All Group Members"):

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/U106/default.aspx?section=yresults

For R-M153 in Gaul (France), see (scroll down to the map and click on "All Group Members):

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-M153_The_Basque_Marker/default.aspx?section=yresults

Unfortunately no map exists for R-SRY2627 that I could find, and that is a problem, because R-SRY2627 is fairly significant in France.

There are limitations to the subclade maps above. Not all members of the subclades named are listed on the maps because not every member of each subclade has joined its respective project. Still, the maps are fairly representative of the distribution of those subclades, at least as far as they can be, based on results of testing by genetic genealogy testing companies, especially Family Tree DNA.

That's enough for a lead-in post, I guess.

Comments?

I know most people on this forum are primarily interested in L21, but looking at the P312* it appears to be pretty evenly distributed between north and south, east and west. The only thing that stands out is the complete absence from Brittany, which surprises me.
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« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2009, 01:10:40 AM »

“Can you just clarify one thing? Are you saying this regarding my maps?”

No, argiedude I was not. Goldenhind is right my post referenced the person maintaining the above R-U152 map. He and I have a multi-year disagreement over R-U152. I hate to keep bringing this up over and over again, but people keep throwing his biased R-U152 stuff out there. Sorry, I said that I would no longer comment on that issue. I will end it there.
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rms2
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« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2009, 08:31:34 AM »


I know most people on this forum are primarily interested in L21, but looking at the P312* it appears to be pretty evenly distributed between north and south, east and west. The only thing that stands out is the complete absence from Brittany, which surprises me.

It's not absent from Brittany; I know that for sure. The admin of the Bretagne Project, Ronan Dorvillers, belongs to the R1b North-South Cluster, is almost certainly R-P312*, and he is a Breton. He just hasn't done the Deep Clade-R thing yet (that I know about). I'm sure there are others. They just have not joined the R-P312 and Subclades Project yet.

There is at least one other R-P312* in the Bretagne Project: Chopin.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2009, 08:32:19 AM by rms2 » Logged

GoldenHind
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« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2009, 04:43:34 PM »


I know most people on this forum are primarily interested in L21, but looking at the P312* it appears to be pretty evenly distributed between north and south, east and west. The only thing that stands out is the complete absence from Brittany, which surprises me.

It's not absent from Brittany; I know that for sure. The admin of the Bretagne Project, Ronan Dorvillers, belongs to the R1b North-South Cluster, is almost certainly R-P312*, and he is a Breton. He just hasn't done the Deep Clade-R thing yet (that I know about). I'm sure there are others. They just have not joined the R-P312 and Subclades Project yet.

There is at least one other R-P312* in the Bretagne Project: Chopin.
Thanks. Further proof that we shouldn't rely too heavily on these sort of maps, because of the way the data that they are based on are collected.
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rms2
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« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2009, 08:56:50 PM »


Thanks. Further proof that we shouldn't rely too heavily on these sort of maps, because of the way the data that they are based on are collected.

You can't rely on them totally, but mine are reliable for what info I get.

I just don't get all the info out there because 1) not everyone who should get tested actually gets tested and 2) not everyone who gets tested joins one of my projects or otherwise becomes known to me.

But they're all we've got, and if we want to speculate, we have to have something. We just have to be aware of their limitations and that there is a lot we don't know.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2009, 09:04:43 PM »

Certainly at present most of the L21 falls into the Celtica part of Gaul and also into the lands beyond the Rhine but south of the Main that were Celtic but had been included into the Germania Superior province. I think its fair to also say that despite an interesting group in southern Holland in what would have been the extreme north-east of Belgica bordering the orginal path of the Rhine (the Menapii tribe?), the rest of Belgica is so far very low on L21 as is Aquitania.  I think there is some sort of clade patterning but the real lack of L21 testing in many of the low L21 areas may yet prove misleading.  .   
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rms2
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« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2009, 09:10:37 PM »

Certainly at present most of the L21 falls into the Celtica part of Gaul and also into the lands beyond the Rhine but south of the Main that were Celtic but had been included into the Germania Superior province. I think its fair to also say that despite an interesting group in southern Holland in what would have been the extreme north-east of Belgica bordering the orginal path of the Rhine (the Menapii tribe?), the rest of Belgica is so far very low on L21 as is Aquitania.  I think there is some sort of clade patterning but the real lack of L21 testing in many of the low L21 areas may yet prove misleading.  .   

I agree. What I think I see is that in what was once Gaul L21 is distributed for the most part where the tribes Caesar named as Gauls were distributed.

Thus far it is present to a lesser extent in what was Belgica and is completely absent from old Aquitania (south of the Garonne in Gaul).
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jerome72
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« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2009, 11:16:00 AM »

Hi!
I have grouped all these maps into one (only for France):
http://tinyurl.com/yaxbknj
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2009, 11:47:24 AM »

Hi!
I have grouped all these maps into one (only for France):
http://tinyurl.com/yaxbknj

Thank you for that combined map.  It sort of warns against seeing any sharp geographical divisions.  The clades seem very much mixed up with no clear patterns. 
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2009, 04:10:10 PM »

Hi!
I have grouped all these maps into one (only for France):
http://tinyurl.com/yaxbknj

Thank you for that combined map.  It sort of warns against seeing any sharp geographical divisions.  The clades seem very much mixed up with no clear patterns. 
Agreed, an excellent map. I think this manner of displaying an overlay of the different subclades on one map is by far the best way to make comparisons. I would note two observations: a concentration of L21 to the northwest and the absence of U106 to the southeast. But as discussed above, the manner in which the data for the maps are selected should caution us against jumping to conclusions.
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rms2
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« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2009, 04:12:45 PM »

There is a new R-L21* to add to the map in northeastern France: Doucet, YSearch KZYXF. His most distant y-dna ancestor came from Sedan in the Ardennes, near the Belgian border and not too far from our man in Luxembourg, Conrardy.
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jerome72
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« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2009, 01:35:39 AM »

There is a new R-L21* to add to the map in northeastern France: Doucet, YSearch KZYXF. His most distant y-dna ancestor came from Sedan in the Ardennes, near the Belgian border and not too far from our man in Luxembourg, Conrardy.

I've uploaded!

Caesar also mentions the Armorican confederation which include the following people, located between the Loire and the Seine and that seems to be rich in L21: Coriosolites the Redones the Ambibares the Caletes the Osismii the Lemovices (or Lexovi?), The Veneti, the Unelli.
These different tribes, Do they have a common origin?
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2009, 04:37:14 AM »

Hi!
I have grouped all these maps into one (only for France):
http://tinyurl.com/yaxbknj

One thing the map makes clear is that there are areas where no dots appear at all, including a large area of the south-centre and another area in the north-centre.  Seems to be mainly the inland areas.   It alway strikers me on a Europe wide basis that the deep inland areas tend to be sampling gaps and that seems to be true of France.  I strongly suspect that there is not a genuine gap in R1b1b2 areas and this surely relates to some biase due to the history of immigration to North America by boat and access to ports.  Probably the most striking western European example of this lack of testing in landlocked areas is Austria but the neighbouring area of SE Germany also looks undersampled. 
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rms2
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« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2009, 09:37:55 AM »

That is true. Another thing I think cannot be over emphasized is the fact that those other clades have enjoyed a three-to-four-year head start on L21, and that in good economic times.

Really, our progress in France has been truly remarkable and surely can only mean that L21 must be very common there.

My own opinion is that it is common throughout France (with the possible exception of the South), not just in the Northwest.
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secherbernard
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« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2009, 01:37:18 PM »

One thing the map makes clear is that there are areas where no dots appear at all, including a large area of the south-centre and another area in the north-centre.  Seems to be mainly the inland areas.   It alway strikers me on a Europe wide basis that the deep inland areas tend to be sampling gaps and that seems to be true of France.  I strongly suspect that there is not a genuine gap in R1b1b2 areas and this surely relates to some biase due to the history of immigration to North America by boat and access to ports.  Probably the most striking western European example of this lack of testing in landlocked areas is Austria but the neighbouring area of SE Germany also looks undersampled. 
South-centre is the    the least populated region of France. I suppose this is the reason there are no dots here.

Bernard
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YDNA: R-DF13+ L69+ DYS464X: cccc.3
mtDNA: U6a7a1
mtDNA of my father: U5a2c
YDNA of my maternal uncle: I1*
Ysearch and Mitosearch: UE9BU
Ysearch of my maternal uncle: CEC59

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