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Mike Walsh
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« on: October 18, 2009, 03:13:18 PM »

M222+'s modal is M5UKQ so I plugged it into the R-L21* spreadsheet just to see where it fits in. I guess it is as close as we can get to the "ancestral" haplotype, the haplotype of the M222+ TMRCA.

We may have L159.2 coming on line but sometimes we forget about FTDNA's R1b1b2a1b5a (M37+) and R1b1b2a1b5c (P66+).  I tried to find modals for these two SNP's but am coming very, very limited.  Just two for each.  Here they are:

M37+  -- ME4JU Rice Oregon, USA  --  YJZ2X Browning London, United Kingdom

P66+   -- DZRKP Unknown P66+ -- PZDN9 Hailey   

Is there any more information on these?  If this is it, practically speaking M37+ and P66+ should be treated like L21* folks.  Their current SNP's may be so far downstream we should look at what L21* clusters they fit into.  I'm not sure what a "private" SNP is but they must be close.

Comments?
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rms2
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« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2009, 03:36:57 PM »

M222+'s modal is M5UKQ so I plugged it into the R-L21* spreadsheet just to see where it fits in. I guess it is as close as we can get to the "ancestral" haplotype, the haplotype of the M222+ TMRCA.

We may have L159.2 coming on line but sometimes we forget about FTDNA's R1b1b2a1b5a (M37+) and R1b1b2a1b5c (P66+).  I tried to find modals for these two SNP's but am coming very, very limited.  Just two for each.  Here they are:

M37+  -- ME4JU Rice Oregon, USA  --  YJZ2X Browning London, United Kingdom

P66+   -- DZRKP Unknown P66+ -- PZDN9 Hailey   

Is there any more information on these?  If this is it, practically speaking M37+ and P66+ should be treated like L21* folks.  Their current SNP's may be so far downstream we should look at what L21* clusters they fit into.  I'm not sure what a "private" SNP is but they must be close.

Comments?


Right off the bat I would say Hailey meant to hit "R1b1b2a1b5b" but mistakenly entered "R1b1b2a1b5c" instead. His haplotype looks like M222+/Niall to me.

I'll bet the two M37+ (R1b1b2a1b5a) entries are mistakes, too.

I just sent them emails in an effort to find out.

The only two M37+ results I know of were (I think) two Australians of European ancestry who were probably related. Thus M37 is probably a private SNP.

The only P66+ result I know of (and I wrote Mr. Greenspan of FTDNA about that one) was an anonymous Italian. It is probably private, too, but we won't know until a lot more Deep Clade testing of Italians occurs. At least we know there is one more Italian out there who is L21+!
« Last Edit: October 18, 2009, 03:37:55 PM by rms2 » Logged

Mike Walsh
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« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2009, 07:20:22 PM »

..... but sometimes we forget about FTDNA's R1b1b2a1b5a (M37+) and R1b1b2a1b5c (P66+).  I tried to find modals for these two SNP's but am coming very, very limited.  Just two for each.  Here they are:

M37+  -- ME4JU Rice Oregon, USA  --  YJZ2X Browning London, United Kingdom

P66+   -- DZRKP Unknown P66+ -- PZDN9 Hailey   

Is there any more information on these?  If this is it, practically speaking M37+ and P66+ should be treated like L21* folks.  Their current SNP's may be so far downstream we should look at what L21* clusters they fit into.  I'm not sure what a "private" SNP is but they must be close.
Comments?

Right off the bat I would say Hailey meant to hit "R1b1b2a1b5b" but mistakenly entered "R1b1b2a1b5c" instead. His haplotype looks like M222+/Niall to me.

I'll bet the two M37+ (R1b1b2a1b5a) entries are mistakes, too.

I just sent them emails in an effort to find out.

The only two M37+ results I know of were (I think) two Australians of European ancestry who were probably related. Thus M37 is probably a private SNP.

The only P66+ result I know of (and I wrote Mr. Greenspan of FTDNA about that one) was an anonymous Italian. It is probably private, too, but we won't know until a lot more Deep Clade testing of Italians occurs. At least we know there is one more Italian out there who is L21+!
As far as P66+, I think that one "real" guy is Ysearch DZRKP.  That's what I'm told anyone although no one can probably confirm it publicly.

As far as M37+, I think I have to remove YJZ2X Browning from M37+ status.  This is quite strange.  Yesterday YJZ2X was coded as R1b1b2a1b5a (M37+) in Ysearch.   Today I see that kit N71242 Browning has joined the R-L21Plus project and his Hg assignment is a clear R1b1b2a1b5 - no "a" on the end.  I can't formally tell if N71242 and YJZ2X are linked, but though YJZ2X is (or at least was) a shorter Ht than N71242, they match exactly.   I think the YJZ2X M37+ representation was an anomaly that needs to be corrected. YJZ2X must really be one and the same and be R-L21*.


« Last Edit: October 18, 2009, 07:22:25 PM by Mike » Logged

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rms2
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« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2009, 07:16:32 AM »


As far as P66+, I think that one "real" guy is Ysearch DZRKP.  That's what I'm told anyone although no one can probably confirm it publicly.

As far as M37+, I think I have to remove YJZ2X Browning from M37+ status.  This is quite strange.  Yesterday YJZ2X was coded as R1b1b2a1b5a (M37+) in Ysearch.   Today I see that kit N71242 Browning has joined the R-L21Plus project and his Hg assignment is a clear R1b1b2a1b5 - no "a" on the end.  I can't formally tell if N71242 and YJZ2X are linked, but though YJZ2X is (or at least was) a shorter Ht than N71242, they match exactly.   I think the YJZ2X M37+ representation was an anomaly that needs to be corrected. YJZ2X must really be one and the same and be R-L21*.


Not so strange really. I emailed Browning and asked him about his "M37+" status. I also asked him to join the project if he saw an L21+ at bottom of his Haplotree page. He didn't answer my email directly, but obviously he entered that "a" at the end of his "R1b1b2a1b5a" entry by mistake and has corrected it.

Over the last few years I have emailed a number of people about rare subclade entries in YSearch. Not a blessed one of them ever turned out to be a correct entry. They were all errors.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2009, 09:34:54 AM »


As far as P66+, I think that one "real" guy is Ysearch DZRKP.  That's what I'm told anyone although no one can probably confirm it publicly.

As far as M37+, I think I have to remove YJZ2X Browning from M37+ status.  This is quite strange.  Yesterday YJZ2X was coded as R1b1b2a1b5a (M37+) in Ysearch.   Today I see that kit N71242 Browning has joined the R-L21Plus project and his Hg assignment is a clear R1b1b2a1b5 - no "a" on the end.  I can't formally tell if N71242 and YJZ2X are linked, but though YJZ2X is (or at least was) a shorter Ht than N71242, they match exactly.   I think the YJZ2X M37+ representation was an anomaly that needs to be corrected. YJZ2X must really be one and the same and be R-L21*.

... Over the last few years I have emailed a number of people about rare subclade entries in YSearch. Not a blessed one of them ever turned out to be a correct entry. They were all errors.
Why don't they call it a "private" SNP?  What qualifies for a "public" SNP?
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vtilroe
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« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2009, 12:17:53 AM »

M37 and P66 are legacy SNPs introduced before the "private" and "public" differentiation, and were 'grandfathered' into the current Y-phylogenetic tree.

According to the ISOGG:
Private SNPs are defined as:
Quote
EITHER
   a) A SNP that has been observed only once, or has been observed multiple times but the associated STR profiles show less than 15% of markers have diverged
OR
   b) A SNP for which NO specified population have been demonstrated to exist where the frequency is greater than 0.05% (P<0.05) and whose total male population exceeds 500 thousand individuals as defined geographically or ethnically.
- http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_SNP_Requirements.html

If neither a) or b) are true, then the SNP can be considered public.

There are many (including myself) that are of the opinion that P66 and M37 (among others) should be removed from the official tree(s) and demoted to private status for good.  Over three years of searching without further positives should be indication enough that they are really pretty useless for standard testing.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2009, 12:18:23 AM by vtilroe » Logged

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rms2
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« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2009, 12:47:20 PM »

Quote
M37+  -- ME4JU Rice Oregon, USA

I heard from Rice by email. The "R1b1b2a1b5a" entry was an error. He meant to enter R1b1b2a1b5. He is M37-, like the rest of us.

That takes care of all of those entries.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2009, 03:51:48 PM »

Quote
M37+  -- ME4JU Rice Oregon, USA
I heard from Rice by email. The "R1b1b2a1b5a" entry was an error. He meant to enter R1b1b2a1b5. He is M37-, like the rest of us.
That takes care of all of those entries.
Got it.  Looks like he had 2 Ysearch entries. One good, one not.
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