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Author Topic: Good News! Luxembourg R-L21*!  (Read 841 times)
rms2
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« on: October 16, 2009, 07:37:06 PM »

Conrardy, whose ancestor came from Pratz, Luxembourg, just got his L21+ result.

This moves us toward a link between our Rhenish R-L21* guys and our Northern French R-L21* guys, showing the possible path of L21 from Germany into Northern France.

I was really hoping this would happen.

Conrardy (YSearch 6C3G6) is another one of those guys with the 406S1=11, 617=13 combo that is a pretty decent indicator of L21+ status.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2009, 08:58:12 PM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2009, 11:36:33 AM »

It might be worthwhile to mention that one of our German R-L21* guys, Lurz (Dr. Krahn), traces his most distant y-dna ancestor to the German Siebenbürgen settlement in Transylvania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transylvanian_Saxons).

The earliest Siebenbürgen settlers came mostly from the Luxembourg/Moselle region.
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rms2
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« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2009, 09:11:36 PM »

I guess this thread is not going to get a lot of traffic because there are very few samples from Luxembourg in FTDNA's database (at least, as far as I know).

I know of two: Gommes (7VEN3) and Conrardy (6C3G6).

Gommes is R-U152 (untested for the sublcades, I believe), and Conrardy is R-L21*.

So there you have it.

R-L21* is 50% of the R1b1b2 in Luxembourg! ;-)
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2009, 02:47:49 PM »

I guess this thread is not going to get a lot of traffic because there are very few samples from Luxembourg in FTDNA's database (at least, as far as I know).
I know of two: Gommes (7VEN3) and Conrardy (6C3G6).
Gommes is R-U152 (untested for the sublcades, I believe), and Conrardy is R-L21*... R-L21* is 50% of the R1b1b2 in Luxembourg! ;-)
I didn't think much of this but a suggestion was made to me that has some possibilities.

Could R-L21* be prominent in among descendents of Flemish peoples?  Technically, Flanders is in Belgium but I think this part of Europe, Benelux, needs to be considered together.

There are only four 67 STR confirmed L21+'s in Benelux.  Two have the 11-13 Combo (406s1=11 617=13) signature. Conrardy (6C3G6) is one and the other is Ammerlaan (4YRVX) of the Netherlands. There is no proof that all of 11-13 is a clade, but sections of it may very well be.

An 11-13 researcher, Ann S, suggested that several DNA connection with some people in Ireland (where my genealogy goes) and the Scottish Borders have a common theme of Anglo-Norman or Cambro-Norman connections.
The Welsh contingent of this group is centered in Glamorgan, which is directly connected to some of the others' folklore and Norman incursion into Wales.

The researcher has now recently suggested the possibility that the scattering and folklore add up to a possible Flemish origin, that is a Flemish element of the Norman invasion/immigration.

I know little about the Flemish.  What are their origins?  Were they remnants of a Zone Beaker expansion? or other cultural expansions?  What haplogroups seem to be common of Flemish people?

BBC on Flemish Colonists in Wales:
Quote
In the 11th Century, Flanders was becoming perilously overpopulated and the Flemish, in the area now known as Belgium, were forced to move. Many moved to Germany, while others joined the Norman army, becoming an important element in their forces.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/legacies/immig_emig/wales/w_sw/index.shtml
BTW, we have a Swede and a German in the 11-13 Combo variety as well.

Geraldus Cambrensis, Itinerary Through Wales, 1188:
Quote
The inhabitants of this province (South Wales) derived their origin from Flanders, and were sent by King Henry I to inhabit these districts; a people brave and robust, ever most hostile to the Welsh; a people, I say, well versed in commerce and woollen manufactories; a people anxious to seek gain by sea or land, in defiance of fatigue and danger; a hardy race, equally fitted for the plough or the sword; a people brave and happy.

BBC on the Norman Impact in the Scottish Borders:
Quote
After the invasion of 1066, the Normans set about introducing their laws and customs to Britain, first in the south of England, formalising land ownership, reforming religion and increasing trade. Land was granted to Norman, Breton and Flemish nobles who had been part of the conquest..... The Scottish Borders were the focus of many of the reforms."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/legacies/immig_emig/scotland/borders/index.shtml
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
Jdean
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« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2009, 03:21:54 PM »

Could R-L21* be prominent in among descendents of Flemish peoples?

Not much of a connection admittedly, but my closest (by a long way) non name match is 60/67 with a group of brick walled Americans called Goff, the administrator of the Goff/Gough project is fairly adamant that all US Goff/Goughs originate from the UK, however the name does have Dutch connection as well.

One of these is L21+, but has only tested up to 12, but he’s an exact match to the 67 member
« Last Edit: December 05, 2009, 03:24:23 PM by Jdean » Logged

Y-DNA R-DF49*
MtDNA J1c2e
Kit No. 117897
Ysearch 3BMC9

rms2
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« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2009, 04:14:05 PM »

You should probably include Dr. Krahn in musings on Luxembourg and L21. His ancestor came from the Siebenbürgen settlement in Transylvania. Those folks came originally from the Luxembourg/Moselle area. Dr. Krahn commented on Rootsweb once before that he was visiting Luxembourg when his grandfather remarked that a female shopkeeper was speaking the same dialect spoken by the Siebenbürger in Transylvania.

We have two more Luxembourgers in our project's "L21 Pending" category waiting for results right now (due in January): Bonifas and Reuter.

I cannot guarantee the outcome, obviously, but I am hopeful.

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