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Author Topic: Whats your closest match at R-L21 67 Markers?  (Read 9707 times)
rms2
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« Reply #50 on: December 15, 2011, 09:27:06 PM »

Utube has everthing. What was the big Blue guy supposed to be???



A Buggane, which is a mythical Manx ogre.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #51 on: December 16, 2011, 12:18:15 AM »

Ahh, now I understand. Mythology, you got to love it.
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
eochaidh
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« Reply #52 on: December 16, 2011, 08:14:30 PM »





Manx Gaelic sounds cool to me. :-)
I've seen it written and I've seen the old tape of the last native Manx speaker, but this was new. It sounds like Irish being pronounced differently except the number two... I can't figure out what he's saying and why it would be so different from the other number. Is he saying "cheese" LOL? Two in Irish is "do' (doe) and two of something is "dha" (gaw)... it just seems so strange that the number two would be so different...
« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 08:15:01 PM by eochaidh » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b DF23
mtDNA: T2g
Mark Jost
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« Reply #53 on: December 17, 2011, 12:49:36 AM »

I ask Juan what his ancestry background and he replied - that all his ancestors came from the Isle of Man and were of manx gaelic extraction.  His ancestors were all farmers and on his father’s side were fishermen. They all had manx names and they all spoke manx. There was not a lot of movement although some came from the north of the island and some from the south west. The north was settled by Scandinavians from Norway who later mixed in with the local population.

He said Codere is a manx name (most begin with c, q or k which is the abbreviation of Mac). My interest in doing the DNA testing was to see if my family had norse connections or irish connections since the manx, as people say and write, originally came from Ireland and our gaelic is derived from middle Irish gaelic. (Bold added by me)

His name Codere comes originally from MacWater/MacWatter or possibly from MacOtter which is is now seen as Watterson, Qualtrough, Kodhere, being variations of Walter or Watter.

In later gaelic, his name would have been pronounced Hudn Kothere.

So he is dyed in the wool Gaelic Manx!
« Last Edit: December 17, 2011, 12:55:19 AM by mjost » Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
rms2
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« Reply #54 on: December 17, 2011, 09:09:27 AM »

He emailed me the same info. I've got him in our "Isle of Man' category now. One of my female ancestors was from the Isle of Man, so I can claim a little Manx in my "Heinz 57" mix.
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rms2
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« Reply #55 on: December 17, 2011, 08:44:11 PM »

Is it possible, or maybe even probable that the bulk of y-dna on the Island of Man was replaced by large by the Norse?

I doubt that is the case, especially with regard to L21.

If that did happen, it would be really difficult to detect in the case of L21, since the Irish Sea is already an L21 lake of mostly local origin.

I think it more likely that Manx L21 is Celtic and local and not Viking.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #56 on: December 17, 2011, 11:40:03 PM »

Looking at the Manx DNA project it's appears to be running over 75% R1b1a2

http://Http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ManxYDNA/default.aspx?section=ycolorized

G - 1
I - 1
I1 - 3
I2 - 3
R1a1a - 2
R1b1a2 - ~35

I was in email contact with John Creer and he told me that the text books on these Manx names postulate certain (usually Gaelic) origins for them.  About 110 family names that can be considered as unique to the Isle of Man. And his experience both in the Creer Y-DNA project and now also in the Manx project so far does suggest a relatively high (20-25%) level of NPE's.

Mostly Gaelic folks there on Isle of Manx, but not sure how many people, over the last few hundreds of years, had to move off the island to secure a better life, males and females.
Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Mark Jost
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« Reply #57 on: February 10, 2012, 03:57:44 AM »

All,

Juan deceided to Juan upgrade to 111 markers and he and I now have a 103/111 match which indicates a distant cousinship. I have a GD5 at 111 with Cook from the UK and a GD13/111 with Ross from Scotland.

My Paternal ancestors appears to be core Isle's now.

GD 8   Mr. Juan Parick Codere     Y-DNA111    isle of man  R1b1a2a1a1b4  L21  2/9/2012

My cluster has 15 off-modal markers at 67 and 22 at 111 markers.

DYS19=>15, 447<=24, 464b=>18, 456=>17, 531=>12, 511=11, 557<=15, 534=>16, 446=14, 385a=12, 449=>31, 576=17, 710=36, 533=12, 712=>21, 513=11, 552=25, 497=15

I need a few Curry's (o'Curry) to test to 111.

Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
NealtheRed
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« Reply #58 on: February 10, 2012, 08:46:21 AM »

All,

Juan deceided to Juan upgrade to 111 markers and he and I now have a 103/111 match which indicates a distant cousinship. I have a GD5 at 111 with Cook from the UK and a GD13/111 with Ross from Scotland.

My Paternal ancestors appears to be core Isle's now.

GD 8   Mr. Juan Parick Codere     Y-DNA111    isle of man  R1b1a2a1a1b4  L21  2/9/2012

My cluster has 15 off-modal markers at 67 and 22 at 111 markers.

DYS19=>15, 447<=24, 464b=>18, 456=>17, 531=>12, 511=11, 557<=15, 534=>16, 446=14, 385a=12, 449=>31, 576=17, 710=36, 533=12, 712=>21, 513=11, 552=25, 497=15

I need a few Curry's (o'Curry) to test to 111.



Great news! As Rich mentioned, the Isle of Man is home to the famed Buggane!
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



rms2
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« Reply #59 on: February 10, 2012, 05:06:42 PM »

The Isle of Man is home to the BeeGee's music group also.
(BG=Brothers Gibb )

Oi!

When they sang it sounded as if the Buggane had hold of and was squeezing something of theirs, if you know what I mean. ;-)
« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 05:06:54 PM by rms2 » Logged

OConnor
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« Reply #60 on: February 13, 2012, 09:55:23 AM »

Is it possible, or maybe even probable that the bulk of y-dna on the Island of Man was replaced by large by the Norse?

I doubt that is the case, especially with regard to L21.

If that did happen, it would be really difficult to detect in the case of L21, since the Irish Sea is already an L21 lake of mostly local origin.

I think it more likely that Manx L21 is Celtic and local and not Viking.
it seems odd to me that the Norse were in Isle of Man, Dublin, and the Herbrides..yet why would they only inhabit the north of Man? I would think the Norse had full control. There have been finds of Norse treasure found even in N/W England to the east of Man. It is my thought that the Norse were in greater numbers in Man than some speculate. I suspect L21 played a large roll. Though this is only my thoughts.
http://search.avg.com/?d=4d88da00&i=23&tp=chrome&q=n%2Fw+england+viking+hoard&lng=en-us&nt=1
« Last Edit: February 13, 2012, 09:57:59 AM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


Mark Jost
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« Reply #61 on: February 18, 2012, 12:25:53 AM »

All,

Juan deceided to Juan upgrade to 111 markers and he and I now have a 103/111 match which indicates a distant cousinship. I have a GD5 at 111 with Cook from the UK and a GD13/111 with Ross from Scotland.

My Paternal ancestors appears to be core Isle's now.

GD 8   Mr. Juan Parick Codere     Y-DNA111    isle of man  R1b1a2a1a1b4  L21  2/9/2012

My cluster has 15 off-modal markers at 67 and 22 at 111 markers.

DYS19=>15, 447<=24, 464b=>18, 456=>17, 531=>12, 511=11, 557<=15, 534=>16, 446=14, 385a=12, 449=>31, 576=17, 710=36, 533=12, 712=>21, 513=11, 552=25, 497=15

I need a few Curry's (o'Curry) to test to 111.



I have a 17 member 67 marker cluster that is very Irish based back to a Curry (O'Curry = Ó COMHRAIDHE - North Munster connections? and four more Curry's with 25 or 37 markers) TMRCA at 1,200 ybp, further back with Harley (O'Hurley), Dewane and McCauley at 1,650 ybp and then 1,750 for Appleby, Stewart and Mitchell.

The more recent Scottish, English, Isle of Man matches and what ever I am, is about 600 ybp at 111 markers. Leaving out the Scot, the ybp is around 375 and my closest match is around 280. I have a almost a 1000 matches on 23andme which is generally requarded as a Early Colonial based ancestry which makes sense with my closest English match.

So in discussions with several other knowledgeable guys I was asking for a cluster name, and Paul D mentioned people would say that "Ulster Irish" would be closest to Scottish Gàidhlig (Gaelic) on phonology/some vocab, whereas Munster would be further apart (opposite sides of a dialect chain). However there are some phonological features found in Munster and in Scotland which aren't found in either Connacht or Ulster Irish! My Isle of Mann match Galic is Middle (age) Irish with Scotland and Munster something to connect with Conaire Mór in the clade name might be appropriate.

With regards to Ó COMHRAIDHE, Paul D said Woulfe mentions one group been of the Dál gCais (Thomond) this on face value would point towards L226. Another group is connected to the "Corcu Laoidhe" which were based in Cork and generally regarded as been very old in ancestry.

With regards to Westmeath these are members of "Uí Mac Uais Mide" who are supposedly of "Clan Colla" been descended from "Colla Uais" and been a branch of the Airghialla. In this case they were in Meath (Midhe -> Mí) Midhe was both a province and also a subkingdom within the province. The "subkingdom" mapped to basically what is now Westmeath, whereas ironically the territory that now occupied by modern county of Meath was the "subkingdom" of Brega (the heights).

Another source I asked to give me a name for my cluster origins, Paul C suggested I could go with names like Érainn, Belgae or Fir Bolg. If you want to give it an Irish sounding name, I'd go with "Fir Bolg" (literally "men of Bolg" or "Bolg men"), now he also commented on R-M222 that Bolg=stomach in Irish Gaelic, but it also means "Bellows", as this is the more likely meaning. So rather than Big Bellied men invading, you had Iron wielding men, who used magic bellows to forge their strong swords.

He also thinks that R-M222 may be linked to the arrival of the Belgae, and that they did not speak a different dialect of Celtic, rather they spoke an Iron Age Germanic language -  In Irish Gaelic when we talk about the English language we call it Béarla, the word for Iron is iarann, and so the language they spoke was Iron Age English/Germanic. He literally thinks that Ireland's name evolved from the word Iron (iarann), and was called after the Iron Age Celts who came here, called Érainn.

He thinks that there may have been more than one entry of Belgae type people to Ireland and Britain, first as Belgae, later as Normans.

I (me) realize that the Iron age allowed those with the new tools to dominate where ever they travel or migrated.

With the ages mentioned Erainn lineage is my choice.
Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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« Reply #62 on: March 03, 2012, 07:32:11 PM »

I tried MikeW's Generation 7.1 Beta with my extended 67 marker Cluster haplotypes.

Clade A: 1130-AA            17 Hts
Best Estimated Date of A Coalescence    232 AD    082 BC    545 AD
 
Here is a PDF link that shows the charts in an orginal format. Just download and right click the pdf to rotate and then Zoom in. I have more Hts that are 37 and 25 mostly Isle's surnames with more Curry's and a few more Scot's and English based.
 
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0By9Y3jb2fORNUDc3cG0tMWNRTVNhMENGNGpjMWxKQQ/edit

« Last Edit: March 03, 2012, 07:32:39 PM by Mark Jost » Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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« Reply #63 on: March 05, 2012, 11:13:04 PM »

So if anyone has looked at the data, is there something else I can correlate? I really feel the movement from Ireland to Scotland and Isle of Man and some how from Man to South of Scotland in West England or Wales is the strongest route based on variation of Gaelic.

I need more matches but I feel the Virgina/TN Colonial Connections within the past 200-300 yrs could be Scottish or England based Autosome cousins is the cement. I also have a fourth cousin from Wales who is a first generation here in the USA from WW2 time period who has her grandparents solid Wales and England.

Still somewhat closer.
Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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« Reply #64 on: July 10, 2012, 11:16:59 PM »

Update with my 1130-A's and DF13*XSubcladesXpredictedSubclades.
59 Markers
YrsPerGen* / Count / AGE / Generations / YBP / Founder / Generations / YBP
25 / N=18 / 1130A-1MJ GB coal= / 66.9 / 1,673.0 / GA= / 83.2 / 2,079.7
25 / N=620 / DF13*GA coal= / 125.8 / 3,144.9 / GB= / 139.9 / 3,496.8
Diff / / /    58.9 / 1,471.9 / 56.7 / 1,417.1                     
YrsPerGen* TMRCA / Founder / Generations / YBP         
25 /GAB= / 174.8 175.3 / 4,370.9 4,382.4 I forgot to re-run the iterations and reposted the correct one.
      

Also latest Phylogram with the N= 620 DF13*XSubcladesXpredictedSubclades

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0By9Y3jb2fORNVC1UNkM2OUhpeFU/edit

You can download this zipped file containing PDFs under File then download.

MJost   
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 12:52:06 PM by Mark Jost » Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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« Reply #65 on: July 11, 2012, 01:02:40 PM »

Previous Gen111T using first 67 (59 Markers actually) Marker Panels

YrsPerGen*   Count   AGE   Generations   YBP   Founder   Generations   YBP
25   N=620   DF13xSubPredNull  GA coal=   121.0   3,025.0   GA=   136.7   3,417.1
YrsPerGen*   Count   AGE   Generations   YBP   Founder   Generations   YBP
25   N=2647   L21 All GB coal=   109.1   2,726.7   GB=   116.1   2,902.1
                     
                     
TMRCA      Founder   Generations   YBP      
25      GAB=   159.6   3,990.6         
Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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