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Author Topic: Whats your closest match at R-L21 67 Markers?  (Read 8351 times)
Mark Jost
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« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2009, 10:44:50 AM »

That is why the faster mutations are removed in the Janzen spreadsheet when you are needed to look a little deeper into the picture. But you are correct it appears. Surnames where created from locations or Craft trade names ect.

So you think Ken's estimates are on the low side, I have heard a theory that mutation rates could vary between families with some having unusually unstable DNA.

An alternative could be the name was drawn from a place thus allowing people to share a name but have a common ancestor before surnames were introduced, there is a candidate village in the area called Stedham but it sounds a bit neat for my liking.

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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2009, 12:55:12 PM »

“Much as I have great respect for Ken, the dates he comes up for most of the western and central European clades of R1b are a problem to tally with the archaeological record. They imply that most western R1b people (probably nearly half the population of western Europe) shared a single common ancestor in the mid-late Bronze Age. In some countries like Ireland his dating would indicate majority population replacement at a relatively late date. That makes little sense when compared to the normal interpretation of the archaeological record.

I have an open mind though and its possible that Ken is right and the way the archaeological record is looked at is wrong but it would require a huge u-turn. Kind of like everything you have ever been taught and all the normal approaches to reasoning with the archaeological recotrd being torn up and thrown out. It would also require a reversion to the 'waves of Celts' in the late Bronze Age and Iron Age idea that has been out for about half a century due to lack of evidence.”

http://www.leitrim-roscommon.com/plavin/lavin.html

“The question as to when Ireland was settled by the Celts has proved difficult for archaeologists to answer precisely.”

I have a degree in History. I am not an archaeologist and will not debate archaeology with an archaeologist, but I see no problem with my research or Ken’s dates corresponding to the historical record.

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Jdean
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« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2009, 02:23:10 PM »

Then would use McGee's .YCH data result to generate Fluxus phylogenetic network to see how everyone is connected.

I have done that a few times, once even comparing two of the most distant at 67 against the entire U106 Haplogroup project, an interesting way to use up a weekend. As I said they came back as the closest matches to each other, there wasn't even anybody else on there node.
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« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2009, 02:50:33 PM »

On the last debate about marker choice and variance dating which was largely between Ken and Tim Jansen, It seemed to me that there are so many variables and choices of markers that can be made that lead to different date outcomes.  The possible dates ranged from the late Bronze Age back to the early Neolithic.  I think all that united them both is that they  rule out a pre-Neolithic date of the sort that was popular when the Iberian Ice Age regugia idea was in fashion.  
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2009, 03:36:01 PM »

You can use McGee's with out fast mutators as well its just a pain to unckeck the ones you want everytime.
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #30 on: October 13, 2009, 09:08:30 PM »

Please indulge me for a little commentary.  Genetic distance and TMRCA calculations try to represent closeness in relationship.   However, the statistical confidence levels are such that I think they are most appropriate for large populations (groups) where anamolies and the differences between mutation rates are "washed" out.

I'm not saying that Genetic Distance and TMRCA calculations are of no value, just that they are limited and should not be considered the final arbiter.  I think matching unusual patterns of markers, aka signatures, can be more useful.  Of course, you have to test deep enough to find unusual markers.  Those unusual values are there somewhere in each of us.  The more markers and the slower moving, the merrier.  In other words, the larger and slower the signature the better.

Ken Nordtvedt -  http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2006-04/1146248511
Quote
I consider a "variety" as something more than a cluster of genealogical cousins. A variety is the descendant population from a founder with a unique haplotype and who existed thousands of years ago. The modal haplotype is a good candidate for the founder's haplotype. One's "distance" from this modal haplotype, or liklihood to be among the descendants of the founder, should not be determined by democratically adding up steps of difference at all markers. It is much more important to match on most of the key, slow-mutating markers which define the variety.

"Democratically adding up steps of difference at all markers" is basically what a Genetic Distance is.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2009, 08:30:32 AM by Mike » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
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« Reply #31 on: October 14, 2009, 07:18:18 AM »

That's a great quote. That is why someone's raw distance from a particular "modal" is not all that important. What is important is his possession of all or most of the key marker values, which need to be numerous enough to exclude most cases of random coincidence.
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Jdean
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« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2009, 07:31:19 AM »

Thanks for all the thoughtful responses to this, it's certainly given me a lot to think about. As it happens all these people do share slow moving off modal markers, but I think I shall sit back and wait for a few more full 67s to come in now, and worry about the GDs later, we have another two who are upgrading at the moment, with a third who has promised to upgrade in November.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2009, 03:48:22 PM »

Well Steve,
Ok here is my surprises from 23andMe. My maternal side is H11a(rare) Germany. My paternal is Germany R-L21. In addition I hava a unique Haplotype and I finding a GD9 with 67 markers (closest ever found) with a North Island Scot. Any comments???

Genome-Wide Comparison Most closest shared Matches
Comparison across all of the genome data
Percent similarity to MJost over 558942 SNPs
Smith 74.56% (Irish)
Smith 74.54% Briton
montgomery 74.49%
McConnell 74.49%
Johnston 74.48%
Chamberlin 74.46%e
Lord 74.46%
Addison 74.46%
Svensson 74.46

Result:
Global Similarity - I am centered in the English Rectangle box. My pin location is on the edge of French, Norwegian and German reference box.

23and me: "English - The prehistory of the United Kingdom was shaped by the advancement and retreat of ice sheets during the Ice Age, which reached its peak about 18,000 years ago. At that time the region was totally uninhabited, covered entirely by mile-thick ice sheets. But when the ice began to retreat about 15,000 years ago, the ancestors of many present-day British moved northward, ... The genetic diversity of the United Kingdom reflects the history of these post-Ice Age human expansions, as well as much more recent migrations from continental Europe.
We consider the United Kingdom to refer to the present-day nation of the United Kingdom, located west of the North Sea and east of Ireland. Our database reflects the genetic diversity of the United Kingdom prior to the era of intercontinental travel that began roughly 500 years"
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Mark Jost
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« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2009, 11:14:34 AM »

A GD3/67, that was Not-Publicly shared at FtDNA, has been FOUND with help of FtDNA after forwarding request for contact to the person who is the Ancestry.com family project administrator for the "STAFFORD-ROE-COOK Family"!!!

Based on guest access to family tree I have located N41593 - George (Wesley), in the FtDNA Cook surname project that shows a 6 generation MRCA.

I am requesting direct contact information for George. This is getting exciting.

Thanks Stevo for much helpful and very timely suggestions on how to followup further.

(As some know, I was adopted but, as I previously understood, my biological German father was, but with a recent 23andme full test, my genome matches the English/Scot dna with Irish and english individuals that are my closest match)
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Mark Jost
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« Reply #35 on: September 19, 2011, 03:31:07 PM »

Update:

N41593 George Cook is now Deep Clade confirmed R1b1a2a1a1b4 (R1b-L21) and a (GD5) 106/111 match with me!

Here are the off-modal markers (1130-A-1 Cluster) that I match exactly with Cook.

DYS19 385a 447 449 464a 464d 460 456 576 CDYa CDYb 531 511 557 534 446
710 441513 552 497

I will now say We Are related somewhere as a 106/111 match normally
indicates a genealogical relationship. Most matches at this level are
related as 12th cousins or more recently, and over half will be 7th
cousins or closer. This is well within the range of traditional
genealogy.

I have a simple Fluxus Network drawing showing L21 subclade of M222
(ignore this part) and me and my match along with a Haplotypes from
McGee Utility chart on page 2 that can be downloaded from my Google
Document folder and then zoomed in to view details. (Ignore the M222 branch info - I was checking the DF23 possibility.)

http://tinyurl.com/Jost-Cook111markerGD5M222Flux

FtDNA Tip calculation with 111 markers shows:
Comparison Chart
Generations Percentage
4 11.14%
8 58.10%
12 88.87%
16 97.93%
20 99.70%
24 99.96%
28 100.00%
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2011, 06:51:42 PM »

Congrats! Nearly two years down the road from the 37-marker match you mentioned in your previous post.

So, is Cook a Cook or a Koch?
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« Reply #37 on: September 19, 2011, 07:53:24 PM »

I've thought about upgrading to 111 markers, but I think I want to order the Family Finder test first, and even that will have to wait.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #38 on: September 19, 2011, 10:35:59 PM »

Cook reports family lore of English and Scottish paternal line. They have 'been unable to trace George Cook's paternal family genealogy beyond Wesley Cook (1824-1898) in Georgia, many relatives believe their Cook family probably emigrated from England.' But I still have the GD9 with the Highlands Ross who in turn has a GD6 with Cook. And now I found a Curry in Ireland at a GD9 with both at 67. I am attempting to get Ross to 111 markers, and a possible DeWane that I just discovered but only with 37 markers but is L21.

George's account is being managed by his sister and her husband and getting any more information is nil to this point. They stated they they were intent on finding the brick wall but I am not a good option since I am lost as well. I am sure all of this is on the back burner since this first came to light two years ago and since they have had Hurrican on the coast and tornado issues in Alabama where both siblings lived.

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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Mark Jost
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« Reply #39 on: September 19, 2011, 10:38:54 PM »

I also ask Dr. Klyosov to look at myself and Cook along with six 1130-A-1 others in my cluster and he emailed back this analysis to me.

> Let's see what we have in this particular case.
>
> You and Cook differ by only 3 mutations in the first 67 markers. This gives
> 3/0.12 = 25 --> 26 "conditional" generations (25 years each) between you and
> Cook, that is 26x25 = 650 years (25-->26 is the calculated correction for
> back mutations). If you are from the same subclade (which seemingly is the
> fact), it means that your and Cook common ancestor lived 325 years ago. Only
> three mutations give a huge error margin, which is understandable: 3
> mutations could easily be 2 or 4, or even 1 or 5. If to employ impartial
> mathematics, with all confidence it is 325+/-190 years before present.
>
> If we move to 111 marker haplotypes, which give more accurate results, then
> there 5 mutations between you two. It gives 5/0.198 = 25 --> 26 conditional
> generations between you two, that is exactly what was with 67 marker
> haplotypes. It seriously improves confidence of the calculations. Formally,
> 5 mutations result in 325+/-160 years bp, however, considering the
> reproducibility, I would put it at about 325+/-100 years. Maybe even better,
> whatever gives you comfort.
>
> If we take the first FOUR haplotypes, we get 17/4/0.12 = 35 -->36
> generations, that is 900 years to a common ancestor.
>
> If we take all SEVEN haplotypes, we get 57/7/0.12 = 68 -->73 generations,
> that is 1825 years to a common ancestor.
>
> As you see, the picture get more and more "diluted". Still, 1825 years is
> much more narrow compared to about 4000 years for L21 subclade.
>
> Now, an important question - where are you two (with Cook) in the overall
> L21 picture? The answer - your lineage arose 4375+/-400 years ago, at the
> very beginning of L21 subclade. You two represent a lineage which differ by
> 29.5 mutations from the base L21 111 marker haplotype. It gives 29.5/0.198 =
> 149 --> 175 generations, that is 4375 years from a common ancestor. So, you
> two are direct descendants of Bell Beakers.
>
> Regards,
>
> Anatole Klyosov
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
OConnor
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« Reply #40 on: September 20, 2011, 07:50:59 AM »

very cool.
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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


Mark Jost
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« Reply #41 on: September 20, 2011, 05:49:49 PM »

Thanks Michael,

 You helped me out starting this search with Ross several years back now.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 05:51:59 PM by mjost » Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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« Reply #42 on: September 20, 2011, 05:50:54 PM »

Also with help of the Ireland Admin, DeWane is upgrading STR to at least 67.
Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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« Reply #43 on: December 15, 2011, 03:11:13 AM »

Update:
Dewane is, I believe, is now a 1130-A-1 based on his upgrade to 67 markers, matching

I just found out I have new 67 Marker - Genetic Distance - 6 match.

Mr. Juan Parick Codere

I have sent an introduction email asking for his haplo info, kit number and asked if he would send me his DYS values. No Ysearch yet.

I have inquired about this in the email, but he maybe the Juan Kodhere from the Isle of Man who switch name back to the original Koderes/Codheres/Coderes/Kodheres, the gaelic version of this anglo normand name, perhaps originating from Ireland. This was found in:
http://www.kaighin.com/familyhistory/board/mac.htm
Posted By: Greg Kaighin
Date: Wednesday, 26 January 2005, at 3:48 a.m

Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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« Reply #44 on: December 15, 2011, 04:10:06 AM »

Looking via Gap, I can see that Juan Codere is R1b1a2a1a1b4 -L21. There is no Most Distant Ancestor data shown. But if he is from the Isle of Man then I would guess his line have been possibly there for a long time.

My Ross 155812 match is GD7 from him and I am checking with the Cook Admin on Cook GD value as he is also R1b1a2a1a1b4 -L21 as well. I hope he sends haplotype values or more.
Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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« Reply #45 on: December 15, 2011, 02:21:59 PM »

In the first email I sent Juan I asked. 'Are you Juan y Kodhere from a post back in 2004 discussing Manx surnames?'

Got a reply and he stated: "You are right, I am the Juan y Kodhere which is on my passport issued by the Isle of Man gov but on my French passport, I had to put Codere which is another variant of the spelling of the name"

He is kit # 206731 in the Isle of Man (Manx) Y-DNA Project
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ManxYDNA/default.aspx?section=ycolorized

His haplotype is a 1130-A-1 type cluster for sure.

I sent him the link to join the L21 DNA project which he knew about and it had been suggest that he join from a Greer of the Manx DNA project.

He sent me his YDNA marker values and I added him to my own data set and ran some 67 marker networks. The last page shows the Haplotypes, off-modals and McGee's GD ect.

http://tinyurl.com/1130-A-1-67marker-N-10Fluxus

In my own speadsheet of haplotypes dataset contains a quite a few Curry's, one, Kit73430 predicted R1b1a2 that I would include within the 1130-A-1 cluster but the other are only 25 or 37 markers.

48080   Walker
BYTH7   Walker
MBWGJ   Curry
138007   Curry
FAR4G   Curry
SD82F   Curry

Not one is deepclade tested but some are R1b1a2 predicted as per Ysearch.

These have mostly the same off-modals, six in the first 25 and five more in next panel to 37.  MBWGJ has several additional markers that are matching off-modal at DYS446=14 and 441=>14 matching 1130-A-1 cluster allele values.

With the number of Curry's, I am now checking on the
Ó COMHRAIDHE: (O) Corry and Curry - Co Clare Ó Comhraidhe - (O) Curry - Co Westmeath - chiefs of Moygoish Connection. They fell out of history and I am wondering that was the start of a migration process? I have little education on the Irish history but I am learning some of the ancient history involved.

Steve, do you have any thoughts?

Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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« Reply #46 on: December 15, 2011, 06:40:36 PM »

I've thought about upgrading to 111 markers, but I think I want to order the Family Finder test first, and even that will have to wait.

Do you know if I could obtain these test kits here in the UK?The only test I've done was from OxfordAncestors Tribes of Britain which didn't say anything about what subclade I am.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2011, 06:40:52 PM by Bren123 » Logged

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« Reply #47 on: December 15, 2011, 08:35:01 PM »

I've thought about upgrading to 111 markers, but I think I want to order the Family Finder test first, and even that will have to wait.

Do you know if I could obtain these test kits here in the UK?The only test I've done was from OxfordAncestors Tribes of Britain which didn't say anything about what subclade I am.

Yes, you can. We have plenty of project members from the UK. I recommend FTDNA highly.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2011, 08:35:40 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #48 on: December 15, 2011, 08:43:02 PM »

In the first email I sent Juan I asked. 'Are you Juan y Kodhere from a post back in 2004 discussing Manx surnames?'

Got a reply and he stated: "You are right, I am the Juan y Kodhere which is on my passport issued by the Isle of Man gov but on my French passport, I had to put Codere which is another variant of the spelling of the name"

He is kit # 206731 in the Isle of Man (Manx) Y-DNA Project
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ManxYDNA/default.aspx?section=ycolorized

His haplotype is a 1130-A-1 type cluster for sure.

I sent him the link to join the L21 DNA project which he knew about and it had been suggest that he join from a Greer of the Manx DNA project.

He sent me his YDNA marker values and I added him to my own data set and ran some 67 marker networks. The last page shows the Haplotypes, off-modals and McGee's GD ect.

http://tinyurl.com/1130-A-1-67marker-N-10Fluxus

In my own speadsheet of haplotypes dataset contains a quite a few Curry's, one, Kit73430 predicted R1b1a2 that I would include within the 1130-A-1 cluster but the other are only 25 or 37 markers.

48080   Walker
BYTH7   Walker
MBWGJ   Curry
138007   Curry
FAR4G   Curry
SD82F   Curry

Not one is deepclade tested but some are R1b1a2 predicted as per Ysearch.

These have mostly the same off-modals, six in the first 25 and five more in next panel to 37.  MBWGJ has several additional markers that are matching off-modal at DYS446=14 and 441=>14 matching 1130-A-1 cluster allele values.

With the number of Curry's, I am now checking on the
Ó COMHRAIDHE: (O) Corry and Curry - Co Clare Ó Comhraidhe - (O) Curry - Co Westmeath - chiefs of Moygoish Connection. They fell out of history and I am wondering that was the start of a migration process? I have little education on the Irish history but I am learning some of the ancient history involved.

Steve, do you have any thoughts?



He joined the project today. I wasn't familiar with the surname, and he didn't list a most distant y-dna ancestor, so I haven't moved him to a category yet.

Speaking of the Isle of Man, here is something that Neal Downing recently brought to my attention that I think is pretty cool:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llP8kJ_XhW8&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bqy9qIpEIDQ&feature=related

Manx Gaelic sounds cool to me. :-)
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #49 on: December 15, 2011, 09:11:36 PM »

Utube has everthing. What was the big Blue guy supposed to be???

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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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